Epic is on the list of "to do someday, probably". There's a similar list named "to do someday, maybe... we'll see" that contains psionics. There's absolutely zero timeframe for either of those lists. You're likely looking at two years from now, minimum.
That being said, a planar book covering the cosmology of Golarion... while there hasn't been a lot of discussion I suspect that's a lot closer to reality. Paizo's been rapidly exploring their campaign setting as well as rules. While I don't personally feel a gaping hole in my setting for lack of a planar book, I'm sure I'd buy one.
Epic level rules is on the top of my wish list, and yeah the outer planes is a great place to adventure for level 20+ characters.
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I too am itching to try a pathfinder version of epic levels. Since it looks like I will never find a dm who will stick with a game past about level 5, it looks like its up to me to run one. I do have my post council of thieves group at level 14 in the game I'm running and would like to see what level they can reach.
Paizo is cranking out material to support core. They have a world to flesh out, and an oriental side we've barely glimpsed.
Just use 3.5 for that, now. Adapt as you think appropriate, and share your knowledge when they DO ask for input and playtesting. I imagine that Planar and Epic, like the PFCRB, will be huge projects, requiring a lot of thinking and rethinking.
It's definitely on the to-do list. It's a huge list. :)
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They already have a planar book written by Todd:
As for the Epic level rules, Paizo already said they will make one. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when. They will go one step beyond that: rules for Epic (21-40) and rules for playing gods (41-60)
(These level ranges are pure speculation at this point, unless someone knows this for a fact... ;) )
They already have a planar book written by Todd:
As for the Epic level rules, Paizo already said they will make one. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when. They will go one step beyond that: rules for Epic (21-40) and rules for playing gods (41-60)
(These level ranges are pure speculation at this point, unless someone knows this for a fact... ;) )
JJ's current idea is to do epic from 21-36, whether that is what it ends up being or not is obviously undecided at this point.
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I'd rather see an epic book that covers 21-36, and is largely a e20 system (vastly flattened power curve past level 20), with 36 being the hard level cap. Hell, I wouldn't argue with epic rules that were as simple as this:
For every ___ XP you earn beyond level 20, you gain a feat.
As for playing gods, I don't think that should be a function of level. A 1st level commoner who touches the starstone becomes a god. A 99th level wizard still isn't a god (despite what some folks on these boards will tell you about ALL wizards being gods). Killing more orcs doesn't bring you closer to divinity.
Well, even though all this talk about "level caps" makes me nervous, that's the cool thing about it - I can cheerfully ignore them.
James has said several times that they want to do what I'll call a "scoped" epic book that only goes up to a specific level (and 36 seems entirely reasonable, if arbitrary. 40 might make more sense). As he said, the primary reason is so that they can create epic threats that match the expected power levels of the characters, a wonderful goal and one I applaud whole-heartedly even though I'll probably just use it as a framework.
For now I'll just continue using the Advanced Bestiary templates, the ELH, the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary (though frankly almost everything in that book is beyond the power curve of my campaign - check out the void dragon) and the Dicefreaks material. In particular, I think the Dicefreaks stuff has awesome material for epic versions of ghosts, liches, death knights, etc. And I think The Gates of Hell is outstanding.
Besides - for me epic doesn't just mean I'm throwing CR60 creatures at the party (though I certainly do). It means that they've got epic problems to solve as well - like preventing their nemesis from constructing (and using) a godtrap, or dealing with the fact that one of the artifacts they need in order to prevent their world from dissolving into the elemental plane of fire just happens to be currently in use keeping Cthulhu from awakening. How are they going to solve those problems? Darned if I know :) All I know is I've got the WizKids Mightly Cthulhu sitting under my desk waiting for the day they try ...
The beauty of it for me is that I no longer have to make sure there's a solution (or ideally several, like I do when I'm writing low-level stuff); I just assume that the party will figure something out.
Well, even though all this talk about "level caps" makes me nervous, that's the cool thing about it - I can cheerfully ignore them.
James has said several times that they want to do what I'll call a "scoped" epic book that only goes up to a specific level (and 36 seems entirely reasonable, if arbitrary. 40 might make more sense). As he said, the primary reason is so that they can create epic threats that match the expected power levels of the characters, a wonderful goal and one I applaud whole-heartedly even though I'll probably just use it as a framework.
For now I'll just continue using the Advanced Bestiary templates, the ELH, the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary (though frankly almost everything in that book is beyond the power curve of my campaign - check out the void dragon) and the Dicefreaks material. In particular, I think the Dicefreaks stuff has awesome material for epic versions of ghosts, liches, death knights, etc. And I think The Gates of Hell is outstanding.
Besides - for me epic doesn't just mean I'm throwing CR60 creatures at the party (though I certainly do). It means that they've got epic problems to solve as well - like preventing their nemesis from constructing (and using) a godtrap, or dealing with the fact that one of the artifacts they need in order to prevent their world from dissolving into the elemental plane of fire just happens to be currently in use keeping Cthulhu from awakening. How are they going to solve those problems? Darned if I know :) All I know is I've got the WizKids Mightly Cthulhu sitting under my desk waiting for the day they try ...
The beauty of it for me is that I no longer have to make sure there's a solution (or ideally several, like I do when I'm writing low-level stuff); I just assume that...
There are 2 reasons I like 36. One is nostalgia of course. But the 2nd is that it makes CR 40 the top end for that system, which is a nice round number. Not to mention it also allows for the possibility of the now we become gods book, for above 36th level.:)
For every ___ XP you earn beyond level 20, you gain a feat.
Yeah, that seems a direct and easy approach.
As for playing gods, I don't think that should be a function of level. A 1st level commoner who touches the starstone becomes a god. A 99th level wizard still isn't a god (despite what some folks on these boards will tell you about ALL wizards being gods). Killing more orcs doesn't bring you closer to divinity.
I agree and disagree with you. It shouldn't be a function of level, but I would prefer if the line between godhood and mortality where far more fuzzy. Now that ain't going to happen in the current edition or in golarion, but ideally, I'd prefer if the term god was more vague and could incorporate all kinds of weird minor and major planar entities.
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There are 2 reasons I like 36. One is nostalgia of course. But the 2nd is that it makes CR 40 the top end for that system, which is a nice round number. Not to mention it also allows for the possibility of the now we become gods book, for above 36th level.:)
There's also the fact that 36 is evenly divisible by: 2, 3, 4. So if a class has an ability that occurs every 2 levels, or every 3 levels, or every 4 levels, it ends up getting the final capstone version of that ability. (You can extend this out to 6, 9, 12, and 18, but there's not many abilities that show up on multiples of those numbers.) 36 is, mathmatically, a very nice number.
I, my gaming group, and many other players, are not interested in epic material.
I, my gaming group, and many other players, are not interested in epic material.
In some ways I would agree with you except this is Paizo. I would have thought that a book detailing the 10 lamest monsters of all time would not be something I would be interested in either. Paizo just made those monsters actually interesting, so I am curious what they do with Epic an the Planes eventually.
I, my gaming group, and many other players, are not interested in epic material.In some ways I would agree with you except this is Paizo. I would have thought that a book detailing the 10 lamest monsters of all time would not be something I would be interested in either. Paizo just made those monsters actually interesting, so I am curious what they do with Epic an the Planes eventually.
I'm sure they'll do it eventually, and do a fine job of it when they do.
I added that response because, unlike the first four responders, I don't intend to use any epic material. 20+ years gaming, and my best roleplaying experiences have consistently occurred at low to medium power levels. Epic books are fun to gawk at in the store, but I never play at those levels, so I never buy those books.
After a few years running a game store,I've found that book sales follow players, not shoppers. Give people material they can use in the game they actually play, and they'll pay money for it. Give people material they think is cool but aren't going to actively use, and they'll just drool on it.
Give people material they can use in the game they actually play, and they'll pay money for it. Give people material they think is cool but aren't going to actively use, and they'll just drool on it.
Unless it's cool enough that they decide they need to use it. Everyone in my gaming group bought the epic book the week it came out in 2003 because it was so freakin' cool.
That's why we decided to run an epic campaign (which started in 2006). Not because we had ever done epic before (except for one combat that involved four 30th level characters versus an ancient red dragon and lasted all of three rounds), but because we all agreed that it would be fun.
Thankfully, we were right. I just didn't anticipate the level of effort needed to run an epic campaign. Oy.
Creative Director
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This is more of a question for JJ or Jason, or hell, whoever really: Is the ELH open to use? And if so, is there any particular monsters you guys liked and would like to see redone PF-style?
The Epic Level Handbook is indeed in the SRD—it's part of the open license. Which is how we're periodically able to use monsters like the Worm that Walks and other creatures like that (although in a non-epic format so that they'll work better with the adventure we need them for).
In fact, there's at least three of these monsters that'll be appearing in Bestiary 2.
In fact, there's at least three of these monsters that'll be appearing in Bestiary 2.
Like a thong peaking out over tight jeans, you're such a tease.
Or... possibly some other analogy not involving underwear, but I couldn't come up with one on demand.
Like a thong peaking out over tight jeans, you're such a tease.
o.O
Comparing James to a thong?
I ... uh ...
And to think that I was going to reply about my favorites from the ELH. Now it just feels wrong :)
Well, as far as fav's out of the ELH go, mine would have to be, in no order:
Glooms/Hunefers/Leshay/Uvuudaum
Agreed.
The reason you like the uvuudaum is why I like also gibbering orbs and the epic pseudonatural template.
I use the leShay more for plot than anything, and have taken over Kobold Quarterly's uvandir as the dwarven equivalent of the leShay.
Atropals are cool, but are kind of a one-trick pony. Now, if you gave one a divine rank of 0, that might be a different matter ...
Just because of the nature of my campaign, I use the primal elementals pretty heavily, but there's nothing really super about them.
It's really too bad that elder brains never got true epic treatment.
I actually think that a ELH not in the immediate future it's a good thing.
I enjoyed a lot Epic (up to level 40), but I think that in 3.0 the book has bees somewhat rushed.
With the game well set and the 18 Classes well rounded, there will be more data to round them, their progression and their enemies.
IMHO, of course.
Said this.. I enjoyed a lot epic monsters.. a lot of them had a great flavour other than being quite powerful. Abominations were very cool (even if not always well designed for their CR, see Hechatoncheries).
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Creative Director
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People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.
People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.
James Jacobs confirms Bestiary 3. ;)
I actually think that a ELH not in the immediate future it's a good thing.
I enjoyed a lot Epic (up to level 40), but I think that in 3.0 the book has bees somewhat rushed.
One of the biggest issues under 3.0 (which is what the ELH book is, though there was a 3.5 update) is that the ELH and Deities and Demigods were developed completely independently of each other, and the combination made no sense whatsoever.
Clearly James is looking to do this all correctly so that there's a unified whole.
Unfortunately, that also means that we've got a long wait.
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People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.
So are we getting Xotani the Firebleeder or Treerazer? I was personally hoping for the Tom Rex statblock, but alas he isn't in any actual products ;)
People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.So are we getting Xotani the Firebleeder or Treerazer? I was personally hoping for the Tom Rex statblock, but alas he isn't in any actual products ;)
Jabberwocky is my first guess.
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Jabberwocky is my first guess.People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.So are we getting Xotani the Firebleeder or Treerazer? I was personally hoping for the Tom Rex statblock, but alas he isn't in any actual products ;)
True but we already know that as Mr. Burbles has been pictured on the cover and in the blog. I'm hoping he means 2 we haven't seen/don't know.
People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.James Jacobs confirms Bestiary 3. ;)
Old news. We knew that at least as far back as this thread.
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Creative Director
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People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.So are we getting Xotani the Firebleeder or Treerazer? I was personally hoping for the Tom Rex statblock, but alas he isn't in any actual products ;)
No Xotani OR Treerazer in Bestiary 2.
Treerazer IS in the Inner Sea World Guide, though.
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Creative Director
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True but we already know that as Mr. Burbles has been pictured on the cover and in the blog. I'm hoping he means 2 we haven't seen/don't know.Jabberwocky is my first guess.People who have compulsively read all of our products will know at least two of the epic monsters we're including in Bestiary 2, since those two already have roles in Golarion in adventures or in sourcebooks. And there's at least 1 epic level monster we've used in an adventure that WON'T be appearing in Bestairy 2, but will probably be in Bestairy 3.So are we getting Xotani the Firebleeder or Treerazer? I was personally hoping for the Tom Rex statblock, but alas he isn't in any actual products ;)
He actually means 3 monsters from the Epic Level Handbook, which is part of the SRD.
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Creative Director
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At first, I was more of an advocate of having 40 levels (said so in this very thread even). However, after thinking about it some more, 36 levels does sound better; I particularly like the throwback to Ad&d.
Is 36 levels still a very good possibility James?
As good a possibility as anything, since we haven't actually yet started to work on something like this. Nor have we even decided we should.
Still quite a ways in the future. If you want to see it sooner, let us know. Have your friends who also want us to do an epic level book let us know too! Let your FLGS know! SPREAD THE WORD!
Still quite a ways in the future. If you want to see it sooner, let us know. Have your friends who also want us to do an epic level book let us know too! Let your FLGS know! SPREAD THE WORD!
Well, I will buy these two books for sure :)
I would buy a full book detailing the Planes in a heartbeat, but may or may not pick up an Epic Book if offered. I've never yet used the epic rules for 3.5e even, and I don't think I'll need rules to cover epic levels in Pathfinder in the foreseeable future either.
As good a possibility as anything, since we haven't actually yet started to work on something like this. Nor have we even decided we should....
Is 36 levels still a very good possibility James?
You should!
Still quite a ways in the future. If you want to see it sooner, let us know. Have your friends who also want us to do an epic level book let us know too! Let your FLGS know! SPREAD THE WORD!
Sooner! Now! Yesterday!! :-)
Seriously - as soon as it appears, I'll be using it. But I guess that means I've got a few years to plan my next decade-long epic campaign :)
The real issue is how many non-subscriber copies they'll sell, since their business model allows them to say "Well, we know we'll sell X subscriber copies. The only question is how many others we'll sell."
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Creative Director
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The real issue is how many non-subscriber copies they'll sell, since their business model allows them to say "Well, we know we'll sell X subscriber copies. The only question is how many others we'll sell."
And an even MORE real issue is "How will we support epic rules after we release the first book?" Because a significant part of the problem with epic rules in 3rd edition was that they had VERY little support, and thus were in a self-fulling ghetto.
And an even MORE real issue is "How will we support epic rules after we release the first book?" Because a significant part of the problem with epic rules in 3rd edition was that they had VERY little support, and thus were in a self-fulling ghetto.The real issue is how many non-subscriber copies they'll sell, since their business model allows them to say "Well, we know we'll sell X subscriber copies. The only question is how many others we'll sell."
But ... just imagine an epic Adventure Path!
(and imagine how many people would go "this sucks! I don't play epic!)
And of course, the perfect answer is "here's your chance" :)
I think one of the biggest challenges will be identifying the play style, or even better, identifying how to support alternate play styles. Whenever there's an epic discussion on the boards, a bunch of people say "I don't/won't play epic", a bunch more say "great! I can't look forward to killing the gods!", a bunch more say "great! I can't look forward to epic scale adventures!" others who are elated that they'll be able to once again play their 100th-level paladin/rogue/wizard/etc. and theres others who don't fit any of the above.
Given what I've seen of existing Pathfinder material, it seems like an epic Adventure Path would be right up my alley, and would likely pick up right where an existing Adventure Path left off. On the other hand, for players that want to storm Olympus (so to speak) and take over, well, I have a hunch they'll be less enthused.
At first, I was more of an advocate of having 40 levels (said so in this very thread even). However, after thinking about it some more, 36 levels does sound better; I particularly like the throwback to Ad&d.
Is 36 levels still a very good possibility James?
As good a possibility as anything, since we haven't actually yet started to work on something like this. Nor have we even decided we should.
Still quite a ways in the future. If you want to see it sooner, let us know. Have your friends who also want us to do an epic level book let us know too! Let your FLGS know! SPREAD THE WORD!
Me, my parents, and my brother would all buy an epic book so there's three of them sold.
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This is more of a question for JJ or Jason, or hell, whoever really: Is the ELH open to use? And if so, is there any particular monsters you guys liked and would like to see redone PF-style?The Epic Level Handbook is indeed in the SRD—it's part of the open license. Which is how we're periodically able to use monsters like the Worm that Walks and other creatures like that (although in a non-epic format so that they'll work better with the adventure we need them for).
In fact, there's at least three of these monsters that'll be appearing in Bestiary 2.
:O
I must know these beasties!
I know one of these beasties The Jabberwock which is on the cover of Bestiary 2
