I could make additional RL examples (about people "learning" social skills or only being nice when they try [consider "best behaviour" on first dates, for example]), I could talk about rules that used to exist (initial reactions, for instance), I could talk about (as others have) the fact that the description of Charisma clearly states that it is more than "the underlying stat to Diplomacy and Bluff"... but it doesn't seem worth it, since I'll be accused of overpenalizing players, or I'll get attacked for something I didn't say, or...
7 Charisma doesn't necessarily mean you're mentally handicapped or suffering from a mental condition such as autism. It could mean that, if you wanted it to, but now we're getting back into semantics again. In game terms it has a very specific effect. It makes you better or worse at social interaction via anything from a -5 to Charisma based checks (absolutely abysmal) to modifiers so high that you cannot help but to practically control people without trying (say a 60 Charisma).
In the original example, Sigfried the Fighter has a 7 Charisma because he's simply not very good at social skills. He tends to insult people accidentally, wink at the wrong times, use the wrong language at the wrong time, and so forth. The majority of his poor mannerisms is attributed to leading a relatively unsocial life and spending all his time developing his other attributes (such as becoming a strong and capable fighter). He begins the game with a handicap in this area due to his upbringing, which is adequately represented by that same -2 Charisma modifier.
By 2nd level, Sigfried has - through natural growth - overcome the drawbacks of most of his social quips, having reached a +0 Diplomacy and Bluff modifier (he is now on par with the average person), and he interacts with people like the average guy (having got more comfortable with interaction). By 3rd level and up he's now above average in social interactions, impressing people, and so forth. He doesn't have some weird twitch or thing that makes him "off" to people, because he's outgrown his usual quirks that are offsetting him.
That doesn't mean he's catching up to the bard who was naturally awesome at dealing with people and has spent an equal amount of time doing this sort of thing, but it does mean he's better than average by 3rd level and by 5th level he's pretty darn charming (he's got a +4 which is equal to a flat 18 Charisma modifier), he probably dresses nicely (+2 like with Parade Armor), and he's more confident. Not one commoner could look at him and say "there goes a nervous autistic twitchy fellow that is somehow off", they say "there goes that hero Sigfried. Charming fellow, and he's damn good with a weapon I hear".
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.
|
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.
If a girl is overweight and unattractive, but has a happy smile on her face, a confident manner that states "You don't have to like me, because I'm awesome," and always is ready with the perfect funny quip, you might look past her physical appearance.
Keep things in perspective, though. A -2 to charisma checks is in general a 10% lower likelihood of success on charisma based checks.
I am socially rather retarded. My family is a family of introverts, we're obsessed with mental development and didn't put much time into social development. I don't know much about pop culture and am out of touch in a lot of random social conversations. I would rate my charisma as probably a 7, honestly. A net -10% chance of succeeding in a social encounter might even be overly generouss. ::shrug::
The stat scale gets a little wonky, when you consider that a 0 charisma is coma time, but is still only a net 25% lower likelihood of success in social encounters to someone with a 10 charisma. But there it is.
Ashiel, wouldn't that be cha that would be upped?
By 2nd level, Sigfried has - through natural growth - overcome the drawbacks of most of his social quips, having reached a +0 Diplomacy and Bluff modifier (he is now on par with the average person), and he interacts with people like the average guy (having got more comfortable with interaction). By 3rd level and up he's now above average in social interactions, impressing people, and so forth. He doesn't have some weird twitch or thing that makes him "off" to people, because he's outgrown his usual quirks that are offsetting him.
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.
Depends on how you spin it. The numbers don't make the character, they just have to represent the character on paper. Tolkien didn't stat out Aragorn, but we could easily stat him as a 5th level Fighter or Ranger, not problem.
You could say she has a particularly poor charisma because of all of those drawbacks, and then represent her charming nature by spending ranks in the appropriate skills at each additional level (maybe Diplomacy is a class skill, meaning unless she has a 1 Charisma she can break even at +0). Maybe most people won't find her attractive, but she can push past that with her personality.
I've actually met a few girls just like this (barring the no teeth, that seems a little odd to say the least - why does she have no teeth?) who were actually a lot of fun to hang around, and I know at least one that's something of a man's lady.
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.If a girl is overweight and unattractive, but has a happy smile on her face, a confident manner that states "You don't have to like me, because I'm awesome," and always is ready with the perfect funny quip, you might look past her physical appearance.
Keep things in perspective, though. A -2 to charisma checks is in general a 10% lower likelihood of success on charisma based checks.
I am socially rather retarded. My family is a family of introverts, we're obsessed with mental development and didn't put much time into social development. I don't know much about pop culture and am out of touch in a lot of random social conversations. I would rate my charisma as probably a 7, honestly. A net -10% chance of succeeding in a social encounter might even be overly generouss. ::shrug::
The stat scale gets a little wonky, when you consider that a 0 charisma is coma time, but is still only a net 25% lower likelihood of success in social encounters to someone with a 10 charisma. But there it is.
Ok, most everyone is talking about how app doesn't matter, but if that was the case then there would not be any plastic surgeons and breast implants, I understand this is a game, so it is hard to get the numbers right, but having a 7 cha means something is really wrong with you, like bad wrong. Jess I don't think you have a 7 cha. I would reserve that for my husband Mr. Fishy
Ashiel, wouldn't that be cha that would be upped?
Hardly, unless you want to give +2 to an ability score each level. It represents his growth perfectly in the mechanics and it fits with his character perfectly. The problem is you're suggesting that Charisma is the only way to grow, or that there's only one way to go about doing something within the system.
Sigfried gets better and understanding and dealing with people. He was a fairly good looking guide but was rude and clueless. Now he's a fairly good looking guy who's less rude and clueless, and he doesn't have to be 20th level with an extra +5 points into Charisma before he can talk to a girl without almost assuredly insulting her.
Think of it in another way. By 2nd level a wizard has a +1 bonus to hit in melee, just like a 1st level Fighter. Now the wizard can pull tricks like drawing an object as part of a move action (and it's very handy for pulling wands, staffs, and the like as well).
Likewise, a 5th level warrior may only have a +2 strength modifier for a total of +7 (weapon focus + mwk weapon) to hit with his favorite weapon, and only deal 1d10+3 damage with his primary weapon. He could now take Power Attack and have a +5/1d10+3+6 damage, while a 1st level fighter with an 18 strength may have a +5/1d10+6 damage. Sure, the 1st level fighter is naturally much better at hitting and damaging, but the 5th level NPC warrior makes it up with level and experience (ignoring the fact the NPC warrior probably has more HP and such).
We have to keep calibrations in mind. What are the numbers representing, what do they mean for our characters? If your 5th level Fighter is not as good socially as the 5th level Bard, does that mean he's socially inept? Nay, for we can look and see the average person has a +0, and he is much better than average (and the Bard is much better than him).
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.Depends on how you spin it. The numbers don't make the character, they just have to represent the character on paper. Tolkien didn't stat out Aragorn, but we could easily stat him as a 5th level Fighter or Ranger, not problem.
You could say she has a particularly poor charisma because of all of those drawbacks, and then represent her charming nature by spending ranks in the appropriate skills at each additional level (maybe Diplomacy is a class skill, meaning unless she has a 1 Charisma she can break even at +0). Maybe most people won't find her attractive, but she can push past that with her personality.
I've actually met a few girls just like this (barring the no teeth, that seems a little odd to say the least - why does she have no teeth?) who were actually a lot of fun to hang around, and I know at least one that's something of a man's lady.
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.
Ok, most everyone is talking about how app doesn't matter, but if that was the case then there would not be any plastic surgeons and breast implants, I understand this is a game, so it is hard to get the numbers right, but having a 7 cha means something is really wrong with you, like bad wrong. Jess I don't think you have a 7 cha. I would reserve that for my husband Mr. Fishy
If you decided that your charisma represents you being ugly, then plastic surgery would provide a similar bonus to your Diplomacy checks (just like the rules already provide modifiers for improving your appearance through items like exceptionally nice clothes). Having plastic surgery might make you more confident even if others don't really notice, which in turn could make you more attractive.
EDIT: The only problem with this idea is that spells and effects that allow you to specifically appear differently don't provide bonuses, though the GM is encouraged to provide a small modifier (+2/-2) for certain conditions, and I could see the same being done for using Disguise Self or Alter Self to appear differently.
I knew a girl who was kind of skinny, lanky, and arguably looked like a bird. She wore glasses, and had slightly funny teeth. But she was incredibly funny, and she had a way of making you feel good, and even when she was in a bad mood she tried to make the best of it and it showed to those around her. And y'know, I developed quite the crush on this girl. She was really cute to me, and I would have happily dated her. She was fun to talk to, and I fantasized about asking her out - or her me - sometimes. But she wasn't Megan Fox (then again, Megan Fox isn't really that attractive to me, but different strokes, right?).
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.
Dunno. I've never had (nor wanted) a GM that said "you fail your save against touch of idiocy and now you're really ugly".
I also agree, it's definitely a flaw. I never suggested otherwise. D&D is about characters, and characters have flaws. D&D is also about growth (it introduced the concept of leveling and growing as the game continues), and growth in life and in game is often about overcoming your flaws or learning to deal with them. Our 5th level Fighter will likely always live with that -2 penalty. It'll always mean he's shy of perfection. It doesn't mean it dominates his life. Nor is it written - even in the charisma description that Mr. Fishy himself fell back on and then denounced - that the penalty has to be described in the same way.
But, it will always take Sigfried longer to reach the point that a person with a higher Charisma can. Sigfried's Diplomacy and Bluff modifier increase at a rate of (Level-1)=Modifier, whereas a 14 Charisma character would increase at a rate of (Level+3)=Modifier. It doesn't mean that he can never reach the modifier of the guy with the natural talent, but it does mean it will take him longer (though if the game is capped at 20th level, then he will forever be 4 points behind him.
|
|
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.
The thing is, your stats make your character's starting point as a raw recruit.
If you were no more able to overcome your social hangups now as an adult than you were able to as a gawky 13 year old kid, that would be a problem, wouldn't it? But part of socialization is learning how to deal with social problems, how to respond in certain situations, how to fit in, be pleasant, avoid offending people, choose clothing that flatters your body type and coloring, etc.
Can these improvement you make in the way you present yourself be represented only by changes to your basic character? Or can they represent training and effort put into presenting yourself better in certain situations?
If taking skill ranks in diplomacy and bluff doesn't represent learning how to represent yourself better in social situations...what does it represent?
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.The thing is, your stats make your character's starting point as a raw recruit.
If you were no more able to overcome your social hangups now as an adult than you were able to as a gawky 13 year old kid, that would be a problem, wouldn't it? But part of socialization is learning how to deal with social problems, how to respond in certain situations, how to fit in, be pleasant, avoid offending people, choose clothing that flatters your body type and coloring, etc.
Can these improvement you make in the way you present yourself be represented only by changes to your basic character? Or can they represent training and effort put into presenting yourself better in certain situations?
If taking skill ranks in diplomacy and bluff doesn't represent learning how to represent yourself better in social situations...what does it represent?
Agreed. Ability scores are like the foundation or skeleton of your character. They represent very basic or innate things about your character. Ability scores do not make a character. Otherwise a D&D story would be told like this:
"One many ages ago, a man with a 14 strength, 12 dexterity, 14 constitution, 12 intelligence, 10 wisdom, and 12 charisma set out on a journey. On his journey he was met by an elven maiden who had 10 strength, 13 dexterity, 10 constitution, 12 intelligence, 11 wisdom, and 12 charisma, which of course made her the envy of all the elven maidens in the land, leaving them bitterly jealous. It was his 12 charisma that he picked up while traveling with his father through the bloodmoon valley, using his 12 charisma to negotiate passage through the forest. They needed this passage because the forest was filled with monsters who the natives described as having 16 strength, 14 dexterity, 15 constitution, 4 intelligence, 12 wisdom, and 14 charisma, but our man didn't quite understand what the natives meant by 14 charisma, for he could scarcely imagine such a creature being more than 4 charisma at best. However, the charisma 12 that he picked up while adventuring with his father, and it made him a 12 charisma man. This meant he was like all the other 12 charisma men, a man just like his father, though his father was a 14 dexterity man, whereas poor man was only a 12 dexterity man, like all the other 12 dexterity men in the world.
So our hero, the man, and our heroine, the elven maiden, traveled the land despite the weather's harsh effects on their Constitution modifiers, and when their Constitution modifiers had reached their breaking point, they settled in a small town with lots of 10 and 11 charisma people, the two most common types of charisma people there are.
There they used their Charisma 12 and Charisma 14 charisma to find out that the great monster that described as strength 22, dexterity 8, constitution 24, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 13, and Charisma 18 had come down from the mountain. 18 Charisma, how amazing, thought out hero..."
I roll 16,18,14,10,8, and 4. I'm a barbarian.
Guess what stat that 4 is going into?
You can dump stats even when you roll them. The only way to kill dump stats is to make stats universally useful or to disallow players from even choosing what stats their numbers go into.
Actually you didn't dump it -- the fact a 4 was rolled is not your fault you must place it somewhere of course, but no one can blame you for having that stat -- you didn't choose to have a four therefore it "isn't your fault" you dumped a stat -- the dice decided you must do so.
Clearly the solution for all of this is to go back to 1st ed Unearthed Arcana and bring in the Comeliness rules.
It's the only way to solve this.
Clearly the solution for all of this is to go back to 1st ed Unearthed Arcana and bring in the Comeliness rules.
It's the only way to solve this.
Oh god no... Q_Q
|
And I would say that someone could be considered "suave and debonair" with skill ranks invested in improving his ability to present himself well. I know people that can "turn on" their ability to impress people socially, but their default behavior doesn't fit. So Bob the reasonably good looking but otherwise unnoticable fighter dude with a 7 charisma might come to life at the tavern. He's showing off for the girls, putting a bright face on things, and generally putting forth all the effort he can to be the center of attention. The girls there, if he succeeds on his Diplomacy check, could call him suave and debonair, even though is campmates know that he's usually surly and morose on the adventuring trail, when he's not going out of his way to impress anyone.
Diplomacy doesn't make you cool. It just makes people not hate you, and at best willing to be helpful.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy
Much like a high perception check doesn't make you wise, it just makes you more observant.
|
|
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.The thing is, your stats make your character's starting point as a raw recruit.
If you were no more able to overcome your social hangups now as an adult than you were able to as a gawky 13 year old kid, that would be a problem, wouldn't it? But part of socialization is learning how to deal with social problems, how to respond in certain situations, how to fit in, be pleasant, avoid offending people, choose clothing that flatters your body type and coloring, etc.
Can these improvement you make in the way you present yourself be represented only by changes to your basic character? Or can they represent training and effort put into presenting yourself better in certain situations?
If taking skill ranks in diplomacy and bluff doesn't represent learning how to represent yourself better in social situations...what does it represent?
Exactly what it says. It makes people potentially helpful rather than hostile.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy
Saying it does more than that is like saying a high Knowledge religion makes you the Pope.
|
|
She's not talking about what it DOES ciretose. She's talking about what it represents. How does one, in character, improve their social skills? It's through growing into a more sociable person.
Actually, she wrote this
"And I would say that someone could be considered "suave and debonair" with skill ranks invested in improving his ability to present himself well. I know people that can "turn on" their ability to impress people socially, but their default behavior doesn't fit. So Bob the reasonably good looking but otherwise unnoticable fighter dude with a 7 charisma might come to life at the tavern. He's showing off for the girls, putting a bright face on things, and generally putting forth all the effort he can to be the center of attention. The girls there, if he succeeds on his Diplomacy check, could call him suave and debonair, even though is campmates know that he's usually surly and morose on the adventuring trail, when he's not going out of his way to impress anyone.
So that is exactly what she is talking about.
Just wondering, say a girl walks up to you and she like 5 feet tall and about that wide (human) not, dwaven anyway, lets say she doesn't have any teeth, she kind of smells and you think she bears a striking resemblance to yoda. But she's really nice and can be exstremely charming. Would anyone really look past that to get to know her? Would that be a 7 app. but a 14 cha.
You mean like the famous Night Hag? I have known girls who I considered to be quite unattractive physically but who were a lot of fun to hang out with. I had some very close female friends who I considered very unattractive to. I have also had a few female friends whom I was initially not at all attracted to, who eventually became rather attractive to me based on personality and our friendship. So, I am not sure what the actual point of this statement was, but there are people out there who if reduced to PF stats would have above average or even high CHA with looks not playing a large part in their attractiveness. If such can be true then the opposite must also be possible. And yes, I have also met people, and had friendships with people who were very attractive physically but had very flawed personalities.
Ok, most everyone is talking about how app doesn't matter, but if that was the case then there would not be any plastic surgeons and breast implants,
Unattractive people find companionship every day, sometimes from partners who are far more attractive than they are. You make it sound like physical appearance is everything but 1) That isn't always the case and 2) Looks will only get a person so far in most cases.
I understand this is a game, so it is hard to get the numbers right, but having a 7 cha means something is really wrong with you, like bad wrong.
Please link the RAW where these rules are laid out.
Jess I don't think you have a 7 cha.
This seems like an odd thing to say about a stranger, do you know that person in real life?
I would reserve that for my husband Mr. Fishy
This on the other hand is quite funny.
That would be great if your stats didn't make your character, because I would love to play a 7 cha with a 24 app. But most GM's want you to play your flaws, and 7 anything is a flaw.
And I would also ask them to point to the RAW dictating that a 7 CHA character must be hideously deformed in some way as well. At which point I would point to the many arguments against it that have already been posted up-thread. The fact is that it really doesn’t matter how you RP the handicap, the numbers stay the same. There is no table in the Core Rulebook dictating what certain numbers must physically or mentally represent in a PC. At the end of the discussion the final arbitration of rules goes to the GM within his game, but I generally play with others who I am like-minded with.
.
..
...
....
.....
I am a grumpy, angry peasant looking for for an excuse to engage in some low-brow, on-a-whim violence.
All I need is a target.
Something hittable. Something that I'll react badly to, based purely gut feeling towards them.
Come on, give me an excuse universe, I just need one chump!
Just one chump!
If they ask me 'Why Dave, why the violence?' I will not know, I am low-brow, on-a-whim violent peasant kinda-guy.
Hell, if they even open their mouth they're gonna get punched.
I am utterly unreasonable. Attempts to placate me enrage me. Folk who can speak in sentences without stopping to spit on the ground every third syllable really grind my gears.
Now, who will be meeting my fist with their face?
...
Ok Shadowlord how long did it take you to become attracted to said low app girls and would you date someone unapealing I bet it took longer than a min.
Yap, unatractive people do find happiness, money sometimes comes into play." Would you tell your girlfriend/wife It's what on the inside that counts." "Looks aren't everything." or "I love your personality, it really brings out your mole."
I do not know jess, but are you saying she has a 7 app? Not your best diplomacy roll :(
I'll right shadow, why don't you show me the raw where a 7 isn't fugly.
*Ok Sha..*
Damn talker. Something about you just rubs me the wrong way.
::
.
..
...
....
......
I am a grumpy, angry dog, looking for someone to bite.....
...all I need is a target.
While I am no canine coward I would prefer to bite someone that lacks a personal presence, someone that is naturally less intimidating than than others of their kind...
..grrrrr, woof woof, gimme someone to bite!
::
*Ok Sha..*
Damn talker. Something about you just rubs me the wrong way.
::
** spoiler omitted **
What? Anyhow, if your going to hit me can you at least pull my hair.
Ok Shadowlord how long did it take you to become attracted to said low app girls and would you date someone unapealing I bet it took longer than a min.
I can't speak for Shadowlord, but the girl I mentioned, it took me about 0 seconds to be indifferent, viewing her like any other guy or girl I've met whom I wasn't interested in (which is the majority of them). However, after speaking with her, I liked her. Seems pretty accurate me me. Perhaps that's a personality quirk of my own (I don't see people who are ugly and instantly wish them ill, likewise, I don't see people who are attractive and become easier to persuade to do something I wouldn't normally do). I guess I'm just odd that way (though I will admit that I know this girl who always managed to get me to cave on things, due to her bubbly puppy begging).
I do not know jess, but are you saying she has a 7 app? Not your best diplomacy roll :(
I'll right shadow, why don't you show me the raw where a 7 isn't fugly.
The burden of proof is on the accuser or the one making the statement. In this case, we do not have to produce rules saying that 7 charisma isn't "fugly", you have to produce rules saying it is.
Mr. Fishy has already claimed and invalidated his argument that it does in this very thread. You're specifically choosing one aspect that Charisma can represent and choosing only that aspect for your interpretation of Charisma.
Jess Door says she has a 7 Charisma because of her introverted nature and willingly admits that she would have a penalty to social interactions that probably actually exceeds -2 (I'm not one to say), however you're taking that, ignoring that, and suggesting that she must be really ugly to have a 7 Charisma. You're missing the actual effect of what the Charisma does, and you're only accepting a very narrow (and flawed) definition of what Charisma means, that isn't supported in the rules. 3 out of the 4 given examples of what Charisma measures could apply to Jess Door (or myself, or anyone else) but you insist on making it about the 4th "appearance" more than anything else.
Likewise, as noted, appearance by definition does not mean beauty but by definition can just as accurately (if not moreso) be read as presence of sense of controlling your outward impressions.
I'll right shadow, why don't you show me the raw where a 7 isn't fugly.
I can come close :) It's not exactly raw, but she's an iconic and so SHOULD be a good representation of the stats.
Amiri has an 8 charisma. Sure she's a little rough around the edges, a scar here or there, and has a pretty hardcore buisness face, but she's fricken hot, and during her not-depicted (at least not in the official art) smiles I bet she'd be damned pretty.
she get's +2 app b/c of her leather fetish. Do you think she dashing on top of that?
.
..
...
....
.....
*What? A...*
Mmm...
Tastes like leg...
...smells like hair.
.
..
...
....
.....
*What? A...*
Mmm...
Tastes like leg...
...smells like hair.
Damn, my cha went down b/c of cha drain {missing leg & hair)
she get's +2 app b/c of her leather fetish. Do you think she dashing on top of that?
Indeed. I'm sure being clad in leather-based armors as a barbarian improves her natural appearance. Must be conan's excuse too (oh wait, does the loincloth count?).
/sarcasm
EDIT:
Damn, my cha went down b/c of cha drain {missing leg & hair)
God forbid what that's gonna do to your strength, dexterity, and constitution, aye? :P
|
|
The burden of proof is on the accuser or the one making the statement. In this case, we do not have to produce rules saying that 7 charisma isn't "fugly", you have to produce rules saying it is.
Actually, RAW says it effects appearance. So it would "appear" burden of proof falls on you to show that it doesn't.
And since diplomacy doesn't say it effects anything but the hostility scale, specifically it can make someone friendly or, at best, helpful.
"helpful" is not the same as thinking you are dashing. Kind of like a good survival check doesn't make you wise.
Will play later, got to game now. Before I go, why doesn't everyone just up the point buy, or roll stats? Then you would have extra points to make a well rounded character.
The burden of proof is on the accuser or the one making the statement. In this case, we do not have to produce rules saying that 7 charisma isn't "fugly", you have to produce rules saying it is.
Actually, RAW says it effects appearance. So it would "appear" burden of proof falls on you to show that it doesn't.
And since diplomacy doesn't say it effects anything but the hostility scale, specifically it can make someone friendly or, at best, helpful.
"helpful" is not the same as thinking you are dashing. Kind of like a good survival check doesn't make you wise.
Down with the Fugly, smelly people. Give them make-up and deodorant!
Actually, RAW says it effects appearance. So it would "appear" burden of proof falls on you to show that it doesn't.
The burden of proof is on the accuser or the one making the statement. In this case, we do not have to produce rules saying that 7 charisma isn't "fugly", you have to produce rules saying it is.
Mr. Fishy noted that fluff doesn't equate to raw. He defined the descriptions of things in the game to be fluff, with mechanics being RAW. Ergo, Mr. Fishy noted that the description which mentions the word "appearance" is fluff, and has no effect outside of the game mechanics. Might want to catch up on these things, it's been this way for about 2 pages now.
Likewise, if we DO get to include descriptions, we've already shown a hell of a lot of "RAW descriptions" in the form of races, creatures, uses, and the way the mechanics actually work. So we've been dishing out the "proof" for the burdon. Whereas everyone else as only been able to fall back to "well it says appearance". Oh but look at this, I looked up the definition of "appearance" (and posted it) and it has nothing to do with beauty and/or ugliness, but more accurately would mean a character's presence and ability to show a specific external image (such as maintaining the appearance of being resolved while you're shaking in your boots).
And since diplomacy doesn't say it effects anything but the hostility scale, specifically it can make someone friendly or, at best, helpful.
"helpful" is not the same as thinking you are dashing. Kind of like a good survival check doesn't make you wise.
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly).
This sweet-tasting liquid causes the character drinking it to become enraptured with the first creature she sees after consuming the draft (as charm person—the drinker must be a humanoid of Medium or smaller size, Will DC 14 negates). The charm effect wears off in 1d3 hours.
Charm Person raises a target's attitude to friendly when dealing with you. Likewise the love potion does the same. So we can see that they at least like you if they're friendly.
Likewise, having a good Perception modifier due to skill ranks does make you more aware without raising your Wisdom, so there ya go.
EDIT: Likewise, "dashing" is just fine as a description, and there sure as hell is no where in the rules or even descriptions that says you can't have a dashing, spirited, lively, or even well-mannered character with 7 Charisma.
Will play later, got to game now. Before I go, why doesn't everyone just up the point buy, or roll stats? Then you would have extra points to make a well rounded character.
The standard is 15 point buy, which is quite enough to make a well-rounded character as I have shown in this thread.
I personally tend to run games that are 25 point buy, because my NPCs tend to fight like they want to live (NPCs will use tactics, traps, terrain, alchemical items, poisons, disease, guerrilla tactics, SoD spells and effects, will destroy your equipment, nets, trained animals, and so forth). Likewise I use encumbrance rules, environmental dangers, and so forth. My players also enjoy double their starting HD in HP (Fighters begin with 20 + Con modifier HP), and they still find adventuring a rough and dangerous profession (and I generally use equal or lower CR opponents, and I don't tend to throw them up against higher level encounters, the games are just mean).
However, making a realistic and well-rounded character on 15 points is entirely do-able. Heck, most NPCs use 3 point buy. It only becomes a problem if you ignore a lot of the benefits of this versatile system we got, or ignore the standards of the world and how characters interact with it.
God forbid what that's gonna do to your strength, dexterity, and constitution, aye? :P
...a drop in charisma could be attributed to a missing limb or hair.
...missing a limb or hair could not be attributed to a drop in charisma.
Of only there was some guy/gal/misc to help arbitrate such madness!
...and if only they didn't feel bound by RAW!
|
|
Charm Person wrote:This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly).
Elixer of Love wrote:
This sweet-tasting liquid causes the character drinking it to become enraptured with the first creature she sees after consuming the draft (as charm person—the drinker must be a humanoid of Medium or smaller size, Will DC 14 negates). The charm effect wears off in 1d3 hours.
Charm Person raises a target's attitude to friendly when dealing with you. Likewise the love potion does the same. So we can see that they at least like you if they're friendly.
Yes, Elixir of Love makes someone enraptured. Charm Person makes them view you as a trusted friend and ally.
Diplomacy can do one, but not the other. Thank you for illustrating my point.
You keep bringing up beauty, but we are talking about Charisma. Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Beauty isn't about leadership, or even personality. As I said above, Charisma is used in game to literally be able to use your personal charisma to call forth Arcane and Divine power.
The US is Friendly with France, diplomatically speaking. That is diplomacy, in the same way you can teach an animal tricks with Handle Animal. It is a skill check that governs specific outcomes.
If you have negative Charisma, your personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance are all negatives attributes.
Charm Person wrote:This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly).
Elixer of Love wrote:
This sweet-tasting liquid causes the character drinking it to become enraptured with the first creature she sees after consuming the draft (as charm person—the drinker must be a humanoid of Medium or smaller size, Will DC 14 negates). The charm effect wears off in 1d3 hours.
Charm Person raises a target's attitude to friendly when dealing with you. Likewise the love potion does the same. So we can see that they at least like you if they're friendly.
Yes, Elixir of Love makes someone enraptured. Charm Person makes them view you as a trusted friend and ally.
Diplomacy can do one, but not the other. Thank you for illustrating my point.
You keep bringing up beauty, but we are talking about Charisma. Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Beauty isn't about leadership, or even personality. As I said above, Charisma is used in game to literally be able to use your personal charisma to call forth Arcane and Divine power.
The US is Friendly with France, diplomatically speaking. That is diplomacy, in the same way you can teach an animal tricks with Handle Animal. It is a skill check that governs specific outcomes.
If you have negative Charisma, your personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance are all negatives attributes.
I literally understand no points you are apparently trying to make. What do you mean by "all are negative attributes"? Are you suggesting that all people with poor leadership abilities are also unattractive? That's absurd.
Likewise, yes, Charisma can be used as a source of power for spellcasters. What does that have to do with appearances?
What does teaching an animal tricks have to do with making friends? Likewise, Charm Person and the Elixer of Love have the same effects, and barring the additional effects of Charm Person (allowing you to command them with a Charisma check) they make the person your friend, giving them the Friendly attitude. Diplomacy gives people a friendly or even helpful attitude (likewise, if their attitude is friendly via Charm Person, making them Helpful is easier), but Diplomacy doesn't allow you to give them orders or bypass the DC modifiers for Diplomacy with a raw Charisma check (notice that charm person can make a target let you inside a castle even if it would put them in harm's way and result in punishment with an opposed charisma check, allowing to completely ignore the DC 25 + Charisma diplomacy check you would have needed).
I really don't understand the problem with someone saying that their character is attractive. Heck, anyone if anyone in one of my games said that they were the single most beautiful person in the entire world, I'd say, "Great, enjoy." If they had a 7 Charisma, I'd give them -2 to all their attempts at dealing with people.
They don't gain anything from in according to game mechanics. They can't role-play their appearance (I dare you... role-play being better looking than you are.) The only thing it affects is how much the player enjoys playing their character. I like my players enjoying playing their characters, so I let them be however pretty or ugly they choose.
|
Sorry, I did not see "g$*%*+n" as that big of a thing.Yet, “pissing me off,” was cause for concern? They are both swear-words are they not?
*shrug*
I missed the ProfessorCirno's comment the first time around. Ashiel was the one that appeared to be getting frustrated. Personally, I see "g@#~$%n" as harmless so it probably did not register.
To be honest, I did not know why I even bothered saying anything, I generally agree with Ashiel. Must of been the odd day at work I was having that day.
|
|
I'm just saying, if you're going to start calling people out, at least call everyone out equally.Prude. :pSorry, I did not see "g%##%#n" as that big of a thing.Yet, “pissing me off,” was cause for concern? They are both swear-words are they not?
Well, one was (if it was indeed a swear word) in general. Ashiel was being direct and attacking another user. This could become a useless argument, so I bow out.
|
Sorry, I did not see "g**~$+n" as that big of a thing.Yet, “pissing me off,” was cause for concern? They are both swear-words are they not?
*shrug*
I missed the ProfessorCirno's comment the first time around. Ashiel was the one that appeared to be getting frustrated. Personally, I see "g*&#~!n" as harmless so it probably did not register.
Of course, there are some of us who throw the word f!~% (the F word, I know it's going to get filtered lol) around freely, but are bothered by the 'GD."
It doesn't bother me at all in text form, though I know some people it would, but it's still an interesting thing to point out when comparing the 'offensive level of swear words.'
/end off-topic side-trail.
To be honest, it's a more intelligent thread when it's off-topic.
Sorry, I did not see "g#$%&~n" as that big of a thing.Yet, “pissing me off,” was cause for concern? They are both swear-words are they not?
*shrug*
I missed the ProfessorCirno's comment the first time around. Ashiel was the one that appeared to be getting frustrated. Personally, I see "g@*~$!n" as harmless so it probably did not register.
Of course, there are some of us who throw the word f&!@ (the F word, I know it's going to get filtered lol) around freely, but are bothered by the 'GD."
It doesn't bother me at all in text form, though I know some people it would, but it's still an interesting thing to point out when comparing the 'offensive level of swear words.'
/end off-topic side-trail.
heck i use a lot of words that would offend others too. i try to cut back on the internet and am not personally offended by these words. i don't beleive a word can really be that painful, a single word is nothing compared compared to sleeping on a bed of rusty needles. heck, i got suspended in school for using the former dictionary definitions of words that are now considered racial/ethnic/religious slurs. what is so dangerous about a single g+!%$&n word? words can't make you sick, words can't draw blood, word's can't puncture vital spots, heck, a word has no potential to kill, but sleeping on a bed of rusty needles can all of these things. the rust on the needles can give you tetanus, the needles pierce skin which can potentially cause bleeding, the needles can also due to being sharp and how you lie on this bed of rusty needles, can pierce a wrong vein, excessive bleeding, an improperly pierced vein and tetanus can each indiviudally potentially kill you. a single g%$!#!n word canot do any of that.
sorry for the threadjack.
i just logged on to Msn