Balor, true seeing. No concealment.
Within the range of true seeing, sure. The range of TK is bigger (even for this purpose, which has a shorter range) so that's not 100% a given.
Not that concealment is the only form of a miss chance.
Your wizard takes the dmg all at one time, as the Contingency activates. he'll be dead before it can zip him away.
Over two castings of the spell? Or were we not reading the thread?
I'm not sure what you think is so wild that would be necessary.
And he has to have the proper wording on Contingency, without somehow activating all sorts of wild 'detect this event' which Contingency seems to acquire out of nowhere in the minds of some wizards.
Any concealment chance that True Seeing doesn't foil will likely also end up working against the caster. And also, the Balor is perfectly aware of the range restriction of the spell. Why would he cast on a wizard likely using magical defenses outside his range? Especially if he's going to one shot him?
Two castings of the spell added up to 2 x (30d6+135) dmg to a 232 hit point wizard, std + quicken. TECHNICALLY, he was using rule loopholes to use Gigantic Javelins for 3d6 per, x 15, since the weight rules are borked and would allow this instead of actual ^3 calcs, which would then be 45d6 +135 dmg, which would toast the wizard with one spell.
As for COntingency, you have to have seen some of the wild things that some people assume COntingency can be built to trigger to. "I'll never die" seems to be their creed as soon as they get the spell.
==Aelryinth
I have a player that's looking at a 50+ AC in his mid teens. (Pathfinder books ONLY, no splat) Paladin/Holy Vindicator/Stalwart Defender. Aside from Touch spells and Touch Attacks he'll be virtually unhittable by anything in the Bestiary. Most CR 20 foes will only hit him on a 15-17.
AC works just find, you just need to find a good target number to hit and build around it.
Finally some sanity. There are so many ways to increase AC. You have - Armor, Shield, Dex, Deflection, Natural Armor, Dodge, Sacred, Profane (cant use together), Insight, etc....
Also when players think that the PC's with the highest AC cant do any damage, you are forgetting - Weapon focus and Specialization feats, items that increase strength, choosing the right weapons, and once again feats in general - power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Bleeding Critical, Weapons of speed...
Be Creative...
Why? Because harressing creatures get to choose when and where they strick, wittling away at the casters until they are forced to expend resources in responces, and then retreat, attacking again at leasure once injuries and conditions are resolved. Keep up such harressment for long enough and the casters will use up their resources most powerful resources. And thanks to pressing the threat, they cannot easily replenish their resources, without suffering a big picture defeat.
We have all seen this abused horribly.
But, it needn't be a wandering monster or an ambush for the players when they set up camp and do the nightwatch dance. That's silly.
For me, the most effective check on Wiz Power has been to have a high-level Wiz villain escape the party. The limitations of scry and teleport create a fog of war where either party COULD get the right intelligence for a decisive action, but for the most part they end up stalemates.
Then, for a few sessions at least, the PCs and this NPC are trying to tag eachother with scry-n-die. If you give the party something else that they need to attend to, this locks up several of the Wizard's spells in potential ambush counters, or the "gandalf effect" as I call it. (based on the artifical notion that the big G was actually high level but blowing all his spell slots behind the scenes on obscuring or misleading another high-level caster: Sauron. Silly and inaccurate. But, the atmosphere is the same.)
Not to be used for every session, but a little bit of wizardly paranoia is actually quite fun for RP. Nondetection gets expensive fast, and an outmatched wizard can behave pretty damned quirky when he is afraid to leave his private sanctum.
Of course, you need to drop the other shoe eventually. That enemy wizard needs to scry and be noticed, but more importantly, those spells held in reserve for ambush need to be a wise investment. In the end, you get a wiz NPC who is played like a "smart" villain (waiting to attack until the PCs appear to be chewed up by other encounters) and a wiz PC who has to work for his moment to shine.
It's a balancing act, but it is the solution that has worked best for me.
I really really wish that Evocation wasn't such a lackluster choice. When I GM I often incorporate encounters that help evokers out but honestly even then you have to really spam mooks in order to get the average HPs down low enough for them to weenie roast effectively.
I really need to set down and run some scenarios to see about what level of buffing would be required to restore evokers to their previously high level of threat.
boots of teleportation
Never mind those; fighters can either fly, specialize in archery, or be irrelevant. After X level, Pathfinder sadly provides only those 3 options. Of course, updating the Fly skill to read something like "If you take damage while flying, you must succeed at a Fly check (DC 10 + damage inflicted) or plummet to the ground" would neatly solve that problem...
However, I will concede that in those late levels the power that mages can display is quite impressive - Meteor Swarm, Wish, Time Stop, Etc.
The fact that you mention meteor swarm and not gate is extremely telling here.
The only way a single archery shot is likely to force a failed check against falling is if that shot happened to be a manyshot (which is three feats into the archery specialization chain.)
Ugh. I'm still thinking in housrule land, in which a standard attack crossbow shot and 2 feats can give you +12d6 damage. A DC 55 check is nothing to sneeze at!
So, for straight Pathfinder, how about "DC equal to twice the total damage inflicted that round." A fighter with Str 20, a +2 arrow, and weapon specialization would be forcing a DC 17 check on a single hit --that's DC 34 at 6th level with two arrows.
I see where both sides are coming from.
However, with the PF rule-set a fighter can take a plethora of feats that can nullify a caster's ability to respond well in combat.
For what you are describing to work would require a very, very poor caster player.
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I was heartbroken when I read the actual Fly DC for losing altitude against damage. One of the PR lines for Pathfinder RPG, IIRC, was "you can now shoot a dragon out of the air!"
Fly DC = 10. Dragon's Fly skill = damn near always greater than 10.
House Ruled.
(Dear Jason B.,
Respectfully, what happened there?)
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I really really wish that Evocation wasn't such a lackluster choice. When I GM I often incorporate encounters that help evokers out but honestly even then you have to really spam mooks in order to get the average HPs down low enough for them to weenie roast effectively.
I really need to set down and run some scenarios to see about what level of buffing would be required to restore evokers to their previously high level of threat.
Add effects?
Tie them to the elements plus the oddballs - so fixed extra effects for Fire, Sonic, Acid, Cold, Earth, Force and Concussion.Effects (second save) scale with spell level. Pf already introduced some extra spell effects with different focuses or material consumption out of the Armory, just build them in to the spells (or something similar).
(area effect or single target above 0 level spell)
So -
Fire - Ignite (as alchemist fire)
Cold - Entangled (not spell but condition) 1/rnd level as they are slowed
Sonic - Deafened 1/rnd level (as condition, save each round to shake off effect)
Concussed/Concussion - treat as staggered (condition) during and 1 round after being hit
etc..
Yeah, evocation is only viable in a mixed group and only as an opener or closer (if you got range). We run a classic party so the casters with evo know they need to hit first before melee makes things harder.
Oh yeah, Ice Storm sucks - with my added conditions (cold and concussed) + ground condition change in PFRPG it could make for a good lock down spell.
I don't use leadership in my games but instead allow for organically developed cohorts and followers. In my mind, mid tier martial characters are likely going to have access to a variety of flying mounts which significantly enhances martial mobility in outdoor situations.
In dungeon settings flying wizards aren't game breakingly powerful as most dungeon spaces don't have tall enough ceilings to get the casters out of the range of non-casters especially huge and larger creatures.
Also when players think that the PC's with the highest AC cant do any damage, you are forgetting - Weapon focus and Specialization feats, items that increase strength, choosing the right weapons, and once again feats in general - power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Bleeding Critical, Weapons of speed...Be Creative...
I'm sorry, but how is this being creative?
Wizards can fly and stop time and create entire demiplanes and summon the demons of hell to do their beckoning.
You just listed a bunch of feats that are literally nothing more then "You hit with a stick a bit better" and end with "be creative?"
What?
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Wizards can fly and stop time and create entire demiplanes and summon the demons of hell to do their beckoning.
You just listed a bunch of feats that are literally nothing more then "You hit with a stick a bit better" and end with "be creative?"
I'm of the opinion that that is what a fighter should be good at. Why does a fighter need to do more than that? They should be better than anyone else at it for sure, more than that, well, play another class comes to mind.
S.
Wizards can fly and stop time and create entire demiplanes and summon the demons of hell to do their beckoning.
You just listed a bunch of feats that are literally nothing more then "You hit with a stick a bit better" and end with "be creative?"
I'm of the opinion that that is what a fighter should be good at. Why does a fighter need to do more than that? They should be better than anyone else at it for sure, more than that, well, play another class comes to mind.
S.
While I don't think that the fighter needs to be able to stop time or wish his way to success, I do think he should be more than just a dude who swings a sword. I think that all characters should be just that, characters. I like to follow the slogan "Characters Welcome." That means that the characters should have skills that don't necessarily make the uber in their chosen class.
The player should consider making the character fun to play in and out of combat. The fighter can fill a role out of combat and can even use his skills for this. The trick is that the DM needs to make sure that the skills remain relevant and the player needs to make sure that he makes his skills relevant.
It is very possible to build a one-dimensional character that only focuses on his combat training or you can go one step further and play a character with history and goals. You don't have to do a lot to do this, but you should consider feats other than ones that help you swing better. Of course all of this is going to depend on the type of game you are playing in. The more "kick in the door" the less likely you are to pick up Persuasive instead of Greater Bull Rush.
Oh yeah, Ice Storm sucks - with my added conditions (cold and concussed) + ground condition change in PFRPG it could make for a good lock down spell.
I have a player who likes this spell and I can't figure out why. It doesn't do much damage. It doesn't hinder enough. It takes up a 4th level spell slot to do very little. I guess it's the No Save or Resistance but there still seem to be better choices. I guess it has its uses but it seems to hinder the players too much for my tastes.
How does the fighter/rogue party replenish hit points faster than casters replenish spell slots?Um... UMD wands of cure light wound maybe? Lots of them?
Wands, Potions, feats, wonderous items, rings, and potentially even armours/weapons.
Recovering hitpoints can become trivial.
Why? Because harressing creatures get to choose when and where they strick, wittling away at the casters until they are forced to expend resources in responces, and then retreat, attacking again at leasure once injuries and conditions are resolved. Keep up such harressment for long enough and the casters will use up their resources most powerful resources. And thanks to pressing the threat, they cannot easily replenish their resources, without suffering a big picture defeat.We have all seen this abused horribly.
But, it needn't be a wandering monster or an ambush for the players when they set up camp and do the nightwatch dance. That's silly.
For me, the most effective check on Wiz Power has been to have a high-level Wiz villain escape the party. The limitations of scry and teleport create a fog of war where either party COULD get the right intelligence for a decisive action, but for the most part they end up stalemates.
Then, for a few sessions at least, the PCs and this NPC are trying to tag eachother with scry-n-die. If you give the party something else that they need to attend to, this locks up several of the Wizard's spells in potential ambush counters, or the "gandalf effect" as I call it. (based on the artifical notion that the big G was actually high level but blowing all his spell slots behind the scenes on obscuring or misleading another high-level caster: Sauron. Silly and inaccurate. But, the atmosphere is the same.)
Not to be used for every session, but a little bit of wizardly paranoia is actually quite fun for RP. Nondetection gets expensive fast, and an outmatched wizard can behave pretty damned quirky when he is afraid to leave his private sanctum.
Of course, you need to drop the other shoe eventually. That enemy wizard needs to scry and be noticed, but more importantly, those spells held in reserve for ambush need to be a wise investment. In the end, you get a wiz NPC who is played like a "smart" villain (waiting...
That is exactly the sort of conflict that i am talking about.
It treats spells as a limiting factor.
You can also say work with a number of challanges which must be overcome similtaniously over a large geographical area, such as sieges where the wizard is engaged in a airborn duel with the enemies spell caster and flyers, while the rogue is busy infiltrating the attackers camp in a commando raid on their supplies, the cleric is storming the city temple to cast out the high priest and his naughty cult of pleasures best left unspoken, which has sided with the attackers, and the fighter holds a breach in the main gate, battling against odds which would overwelm a lesser man. Give each player a lesser champion(played by the PCs to give them something to do while the character achieves his task)
You can also go with a limited and uncertain time frame for success, and a race for success set up. In the first, at an uncertain point in the near future, success will become impossible, as such the PCs are forced to move as quickly as possible to achieve their goals, which forces the spell casters to use their spell resources sparingly, because to replenish spells to often might well result in failure.
The race set up is similar, but the PCs often have a clearer idea of how much lee way they have in resting.
Wands, Potions, feats, wonderous items, rings, and potentially even armours/weapons.
Recovering hitpoints can become trivial.
That's a lot of hand-waving for me.
I mean, sure, giant sack of CLW wands. Beyond that? Without breaking the bank or going out of core?
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How does the fighter/rogue party replenish hit points faster than casters replenish spell slots?Um... UMD wands of cure light wound maybe? Lots of them?
Also with Channel, getting hit points back after conflict is much easier and less painful for the cleric.
Not to mention potions.
Getting hit points back outside of combat isn't too difficult. As someone said above, spells are a daily consumable. It isn't as bad for sorcerer since they don't have to split spell slots for different things they may need, but they can't change from day to day.
It's almost like they thought about this stuff.
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Hope the fighters can roll well on that if the rogue goes down.No more cross-class skills, so yeah, they probably can ;)
Point is, though, that hit points are resources too.
The usual situation in which melee is most useful is when the last spells have been expended, the fighter and rogue are restored to full HP and the party rest for the night ... and something happens. That's when the all-caster party has problems if they have not kept a reserve of spells or consumables to deal with it.
The other is when you face something immune to conventional magic, such as golems, or something that makes it's save vs save-or-whatever. That's when the beefcake with the big sword and the held action can be a very welcome thing indeed.
Or when the Wizard has to decide if he should sit on his spells in case "Something" may happen later.
A predictable DM makes life easier for casters.
Because it's hard to cast Grease, and instantly negate the golem right?Hope the fighters can roll well on that if the rogue goes down.No more cross-class skills, so yeah, they probably can ;)
Point is, though, that hit points are resources too.
The usual situation in which melee is most useful is when the last spells have been expended, the fighter and rogue are restored to full HP and the party rest for the night ... and something happens. That's when the all-caster party has problems if they have not kept a reserve of spells or consumables to deal with it.
The other is when you face something immune to conventional magic, such as golems, or something that makes it's save vs save-or-whatever. That's when the beefcake with the big sword and the held action can be a very welcome thing indeed.
Umm - didn't you say previously that only Color Spray mattered as a 1st level spell? If so, why would you have Grease memorized?
Just out of curiousity, what spells would your wizard have memorized at low levels? I realize you don't actually play the lowest levels because doing so might tend to rock your assumptions that wizards and casters in general are superior in every situation, but humor me.
In your theoretical all-caster party, what would be the precise make-up? Wizard (what specialization?), Cleric (what domains?), Druid (what companion?) and what else?
I understand you prefer to speak in sweeping generalizations that you pretend are beyond challenge by mere mortals, rather than provide actual examples that can be analyzed, but humor me again, please.
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How does the fighter/rogue party replenish hit points faster than casters replenish spell slots?Um... UMD wands of cure light wound maybe? Lots of them?Also with Channel, getting hit points back after conflict is much easier and less painful for the cleric.
Not to mention potions.
Getting hit points back outside of combat isn't too difficult. As someone said above, spells are a daily consumable. It isn't as bad for sorcerer since they don't have to split spell slots for different things they may need, but they can't change from day to day.
It's almost like they thought about this stuff.
I want to point out the party in question is three fighters and a rogue.
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boots of teleportationNever mind those; fighters can either fly, specialize in archery, or be irrelevant. After X level, Pathfinder sadly provides only those 3 options. Of course, updating the Fly skill to read something like "If you take damage while flying, you must succeed at a Fly check (DC 10 + damage inflicted) or plummet to the ground" would neatly solve that problem...
However, I will concede that in those late levels the power that mages can display is quite impressive - Meteor Swarm, Wish, Time Stop, Etc.The fact that you mention meteor swarm and not gate is extremely telling here.
Gate has a lot of the lack of clarity issues as simulacrum. Very much a "Handle with care" spell IMHO.
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I want to point out the party in question is three fighters and a rogue.How does the fighter/rogue party replenish hit points faster than casters replenish spell slots?Um... UMD wands of cure light wound maybe? Lots of them?Also with Channel, getting hit points back after conflict is much easier and less painful for the cleric.
Not to mention potions.
Getting hit points back outside of combat isn't too difficult. As someone said above, spells are a daily consumable. It isn't as bad for sorcerer since they don't have to split spell slots for different things they may need, but they can't change from day to day.
It's almost like they thought about this stuff.
Shows what I get for not back reading :)
Better idea. Drop the sarcasm and BS, drop the baiting, and just talk to me. I'm a lot more agreeable when not constantly antagonized from all sides.
You're really not.
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NOP: 270H9222
RE: LIFE, MISC
A man with a beard may or may not have once said:
One or more persons may or may not crave the respect they may or may not believe they may or may not deserve.
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I can't help by feel that those who support the concept that 'melee is a liability' simply ignore the weaknesses inherent in all caster classes.
- Increadably limited resources.
Let's see... level 1 caster has 3 Color Sprays. Level anything melee character's HP are gone in 2 rounds.
Who is limited on resources, again?
Odd, I see melee characters lasting three or four encounters against level appropreate foes all the time. And with a range of 15 feet and a move of 30, group of goblin archers at who scatter, using hit and fade tactics to avoid more than one goblin being caught in a given colour spray use can easily drop said three colour spray wizard before he ever becomes a serious risk, however a switch hitter ranger, a rogue, or even a fighter can fight back coherently where your 'i am the god of colour sprayz' wizard just dies.
- Requirements to rest.Because everyone doesn't have to do that? Those things that restore your HP so you're not always dropping dead in 2 rounds? They're called spells.
At low levels, a Wand of cure light wounds will let a melee party to remain in the line of fire for many times as long, and while there should be general rules for rest requirements, they seems somewhat lacking at a glance, and a search using http://www.d20pfsrd.com finds only an amalgamation of hourse rules, former d20 and snatches of info from PF. So, without going out side the core, it seems that spellcasters need 6-8 hours of uninterrupted rest each night to be able to function at all, while melee can just keep on trucking.
At higher levels, With a rings of regeneration even a ten minite break between fights can restore huge portions of a PCs hit-points. In combat the numerous cheap and relatively cheap healing wands can keep the party hitting at full strength, while potions act as emergency back up. While it is certainly true that spell casters can also use wands to fight at full capacity for a longer period, it costs them considerably more to do so, and frankly, even using wands set to their current level of spells, they'll feel the pinch fairly quickly and at comparatively high cost.
- Loss of powerFrom what?
Anti-magic fields, anti-magical environments such as the manner wastes, dispels, destruction of spell books, loose of a familiar, loss of bound item, ect.
As unpopular as this thought might be, there comes a point beyond which a group of three fighters and a rogue can continue to deal with concurrent challanges indefinately.
With what actual abilities do they gain infinite HP?
Cheap healing, slow but constant healing.
Certainly such a party has weaknesses, massive, glaring weaknesses, but unlike say a party of wizards, when faced with enemies designed to force the wasting of PC resources and circumstances that demand continuous engagement to prevent failure, a fighter and rogue party stands a far better chance of success than wizards and druids, or wizards and clerics.Hahaha, no.
In such a situation, the caster team locks them down and takes them out. The fighter and the rogue team gets grinded down to nothing in no time.
Ah yes, I suspect you will be using contingent 'any spell I need to win the argument' there wont you. Your wizards always seem to have an unlimited number of that cast.
Why? Because harressing creatures get to choose when and where they strick, wittling away at the casters until they are forced to expend resources in responces, and then retreat, attacking again at leasure once injuries and conditions are resolved. Keep up such harressment for long enough and the casters will use up their resources most powerful resources. And thanks to pressing the threat, they cannot easily replenish their resources, without suffering a big picture defeat.
Hahaha, no.
Care to try again, this time with more accuracy?
Perhapes you'd like to actually put forwards an argument for why it cannot, without falling back on contingent 'any spell I need to win the argument'
Umm - didn't you say previously that only Color Spray mattered as a 1st level spell? If so, why would you have Grease memorized?When talking about low levels, yes. Last I checked, the lowest golem was around CR 7, which means Color Spray has served you well but needs to retire about... several levels ago. There is no contradiction, because it's two separate subjects.
I can't help by feel that those who support the concept that 'melee is Certainly such a party has weaknesses, massive, glaring weaknesses, but unlike say a party of wizards, when faced with enemies designed to force the wasting of PC resources and circumstances that demand continuous engagement to prevent failure, a fighter and rogue party stands a far better chance of success than wizards and druids, or wizards and clerics.
Why? Because harressing creatures get to choose when and where they strick, wittling away at the casters until they are forced to expend resources in responces, and then retreat, attacking again at leasure once injuries and conditions are resolved. Keep up such harressment for long enough and the casters will use up their resources most powerful resources. And thanks to pressing the threat, they cannot easily replenish their resources, without suffering a big picture defeat.
Tell you what:
Outline, roughly, what you have in mind in terms of party level and harassing forces/circumstances, and I'll tell you why it doesn't work.
I can't help by feel that those who support the concept that 'melee is Certainly such a party has weaknesses, massive, glaring weaknesses, but unlike say a party of wizards, when faced with enemies designed to force the wasting of PC resources and circumstances that demand continuous engagement to prevent failure, a fighter and rogue party stands a far better chance of success than wizards and druids, or wizards and clerics.
Why? Because harressing creatures get to choose when and where they strick, wittling away at the casters until they are forced to expend resources in responces, and then retreat, attacking again at leasure once injuries and conditions are resolved. Keep up such harressment for long enough and the casters will use up their resources most powerful resources. And thanks to pressing the threat, they cannot easily replenish their resources, without suffering a big picture defeat.
Tell you what:
Outline, roughly, what you have in mind in terms of party level and harassing forces/circumstances, and I'll tell you why it doesn't work.
No, that isn't a reflection of actual play. You will simply cast 'any spell I need to win the argument', and unsurprisingly will.
No, far better that you make say a level 10 party, of any composition you like using only core pathfinder, and then see if it can succeed at dealing with an adventure day that is tailored to them.
When talking about low levels, yes. Last I checked, the lowest golem was around CR 7, which means Color Spray has served you well but needs to retire about... several levels ago. There is no contradiction, because it's two separate subjects.
So instead of golems, what about other constructs? Animated objects start at CR 1/2 and go up from there.
1: I stuck to low levels in my all caster discussions specifically to burn that straw man to the ground, so knock it off. 2: See previous block.
You have failed for two reasons:
1) It's not a straw man. No matter how often you use the term, it doesn't mean that you are using it correctly. You have argued that wizards are powerful at all levels. All levels means that you must include 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and up. You can't hand wave them away, you must defend your position otherwise we can assume that you are wrong.
2) You also have yet to address how you would deal with creatures that are not affected by color spray. Once again, I direct you to skeletons and zombies, which are very reasonable encounters at low levels.
Template, not build. You know as well as I do that if I posted a specific build then 1: People would find some random obscure thing that happens to not be covered and claim the team to be worthless, despite the fact any other team would have more, and more common weaknesses. 2: People would point out that if you didn't want to play those specific builds, then what? The first argument is absurd, but the second one is valid.
You haven't really posted a template. You have mentioned which 2nd, 3rd and 4th level spells you would have but still have not mentioned anything other than color spray (and we can assume grease because of how often you bring it up). You haven't mentioned which feats should be considered other than Craft Wondrous Items and Improved Initiative. You should expand on this and use this as an opportunity to show us a few different options at each level that would make your low level wizard powerful.
I would also like to know how using the monsters in the Bestiary is bringing up random absurd things. Without using templates or advanced creatures, you still have plenty of very plausible encounters that you have blatantly ignored out of convenience. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.
No, that isn't a reflection of actual play. You will simply cast 'any spell I need to win the argument', and unsurprisingly will.
No, far better that you make say a level 10 party, of any composition you like using only core pathfinder, and then see if it can succeed at dealing with an adventure day that is tailored to them.
It's like this: if it isn't worth your time to write out a paragraph of ambush/harassment conditions, it certainly isn't worth my time to build a full level 10 party. Do you always "win" your arguments by saying, "I won't waste my time on that, why don't you waste 100x as much time?"
Maybe in your games wizards and druids don't always have one or more battlefield control spells at the ready; otherwise I don't know how your argument could even make sense to you.
Clear where you're coming from now, if this is how you react to engagement. No further engagement needed or forthcoming. Better things to do with my time. I wish you good luck and good gaming.Translation: It's ok to make baiting remarks, but when called on it run away? Tch. And I thought you were one of the people here that could carry on a reasonable conversation.
I do apologize for using a bit too much sarcasm in my post, which could be perceived as baiting. My bad and I don't mind you calling me on it, on further reflection.
Nonetheless, I still don't believe you are interested in any type of meaningful dialogue, so I wish you the best with whatever your goals are and take my leave.
2) You also have yet to address how you would deal with creatures that are not affected by color spray. Once again, I direct you to skeletons and zombies, which are very reasonable encounters at low levels.
You may have missed it, but he did hit low level undead at some point. The gist is that it's the cleric and druid and animal companion's time to shine.
You may have missed it, but he did hit low level undead at some point. The gist is that it's the cleric and druid and animal companion's time to shine.2) You also have yet to address how you would deal with creatures that are not affected by color spray. Once again, I direct you to skeletons and zombies, which are very reasonable encounters at low levels.
I was looking for how his wizard would still have something to do. If his wizard is just sitting there letting others do the heavy lifting, then I am at a loss on how his wizard is contributing. This is his argument against non-casters and his wizard is in that exact same situation. Has made it very clear that he would have color spray prepared 3 times with his 1st level wizard. So my question is still: what would wizard do?
It is only golems that have the so called but not really magic immunity.
But you have clearly stated that the only spell your wizard would have prepared at level 1 is color spray because 75% of the time it would work. I want to know about the other 25% of the time. What is your wizard doing? How do you keep your character involved? These are not meant to be questions that attack you. I really want to know how you are keeping your wizard relevant when he is irrelevant.
All of which has been addressed multiple times.
Only with hand-waving and personal insults and attacks. Why not try something different and actually address the issues?
Template, not build.
We want to know more than "color spray." You can very easily show us which spells you think all wizards should have in their spellbooks. I am not asking which ones you would have prepared because I assume that your character would prepare appropriate spells from his spellbook given enough time and information. A template should be more than 1/8th of the spells available. I would be happy with 1/2 the spells known.
Precisely. The goal was to prove an all caster team was optimal by demonstrating how they are shut down the least, even at low levels where they are supposedly weakest.
One of the reasons why you think non-casters are poor choices is because they have no relevance. What does your wizard do when faced with the same situation? What does your wizard do when he is irrelevant? If the only spell you prepare is color spray and you are fighting creatures that are not affected by the spell either because they are immune or they make their saves, what does your wizard do to compensate?
I agree that a party of casters is a good choice. I want to know what you do when you have nothing to do.
Acid splash!