We were talking about how the ability score itself, nie some of the poison and disease effects and your negative con for death are really arbitrary and just add to the math of the game.
The only thing that matters for in game math is the modifier really and all other effects to the score itself only matter when you change the modifier or reduce the modifier to -5(death, comat, immovable, ect)
I would love to see the odd numbers of ability scores actually do something, besides "I'm waiting for my next bonus". There's the Con thing for negative HPs, the Str thing for lift/carry...every stat needs more stuff like that.
No Paizo Tier System will be complete without Tier Fishy.Agreed. Though it needs to scale properly.
*ba-dah-bump-kssh* :D
I would love to see the odd numbers of ability scores actually do something, besides "I'm waiting for my next bonus". There's the Con thing for negative HPs, the Str thing for lift/carry...every stat needs more stuff like that.We were talking about how the ability score itself, nie some of the poison and disease effects and your negative con for death are really arbitrary and just add to the math of the game.
The only thing that matters for in game math is the modifier really and all other effects to the score itself only matter when you change the modifier or reduce the modifier to -5(death, comat, immovable, ect)
That is another route to go. I was proposing eliminate the score and keep the mod because the score is arbitrary but you could just make the score NOT arbitrary I suppose... doesnt reduce the numbers though and math is apparently something that people would like to see less of.
Good points though.
maybe intelligence could tie in with total skills able to be learned?
Not sure what Dex, Wisdom, or Char scores themselves could do though.
I would love to see the odd numbers of ability scores actually do something, besides "I'm waiting for my next bonus". There's the Con thing for negative HPs, the Str thing for lift/carry...every stat needs more stuff like that.We were talking about how the ability score itself, nie some of the poison and disease effects and your negative con for death are really arbitrary and just add to the math of the game.
The only thing that matters for in game math is the modifier really and all other effects to the score itself only matter when you change the modifier or reduce the modifier to -5(death, comat, immovable, ect)
That is another route to go. I was proposing eliminate the score and keep the mod because the score is arbitrary but you could just make the score NOT arbitrary I suppose... doesnt reduce the numbers though and math is apparently something that people would like to see less of.
Good points though.
maybe intelligence could tie in with total skills able to be learned?
Not sure what Dex, Wisdom, or Char scores themselves could do though.
I liked the earlier editions of D&D's charts where each strength score gave you a Bend Bars / Lift Gates, bonus probability to hit and damage seperately, and the like. And Int affected your maximum possible spells known at each level. While I believe for the most part there was little difference in scores between 9 and 14ish, each number had its own specific set of differences past 3.X and PF's every 2 points is a mod. With how skills currently work it would be impractical to replace the mod system in favor of a set of tables but perhaps adding a similar system to what is in place?
Though I've had a few bugs with the skills in pathfinder. Jump, Balance, and Tumble were enough alike that they got rolled into one entity, but climb and swim were kept seperate. I understand swimming and climbing are different things, but no so much more different that long jumping is from rythmic gymnastics. Although swim makes more sense to me as a feat, representing that one has learned how possibly with an attribute check to see how well it is done as opposed to merely gaining ranks, or more likely a skill trick like setup from Scoundrel (was it?).
Also I'm not a fan of linguistics; at the rate one levels more often than not it seems like an exceedingly short amount of time to pick up a new language for just a rank. In 3.5 where it was the speak language skill an only bards got it it was okay, because you needed to cc two ranks to gain a language if you weren't a bard, so the cap was lower and it took longer to gain one. Now that you merely don't get the +3 proficency bonus to it if it isn't a class skill any character can pump a few ranks into it as they level and pick up a surprising amount of tongues (the list of languages is a bit short for the amount one can learn with the skill), and since it is coupled with script there is little reason not to take it as a rogue, caster, or bard.
Perception has given me a few minor hiccups but nothing to really complain about. I guess I just personally prefer it being seperate skills (spot, search, listen). Some of the DC's that were for smells and sound (bowstings being pulled and such) seem to defeat a good stealth, and if a PC is noticed via stealth vs perception there is little in the way of rule to adjucate by which sense they were noticed. It has only been troublesome a few times but led to someone being dissatisfied at the table. Also with it being three key skills in the game all the players at my table immediately max rank it, often at the expense of other skills that are used less often leading to a lack of diversity in skill sets because nobody wants to cripple themselves in a vital area.
Then there are a few spells I think could use a revamp. Notably Freedom of Movement. Grappling is the main ability of many creatures as well as more than a few PC's I've seen (mostly monks and barbarians). They are completely thwarted by this spell. I think it should be more along the lines of Protection from Spells or the like where it is a solid bonus to CMD, perhaps CL, making it difficult but not immpossible to be nabbed. Mostly with the spells I feel PF did an AMAZING job, moving away from a lot of the save or die and level draining abilities.
I liked the earlier editions of D&D's charts where each strength score gave you a Bend Bars / Lift Gates, bonus probability to hit and damage seperately, and the like. And Int affected your maximum possible spells known at each level. While I believe for the most part there was little difference in scores between 9 and 14ish, each number had its own specific set of differences past 3.X and PF's every 2 points is a mod. With how skills currently work it would be impractical to replace the mod system in favor of a set of tables but perhaps adding a similar system to what is in place?
Though I've had a few bugs with the skills in pathfinder. Jump, Balance, and Tumble were enough alike that they got rolled into one entity, but climb and swim were kept seperate. I understand swimming and climbing are different things, but no so much more different that long...
you should go back to a few pages ago, Kyrt-Ryder posted something I think he was working on.
Here it is: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Prowess_(3.5e_Sourcebook)
It describes changed skills. You might like it, I think there are some tiny things I disagree with but for the most part I like it.
Might not be a terrible look. I know they combined a lot of skills so you might not like that, but to be fair skill points are valuable to rogues and skill monkeys so forcing them to spread them out THAT much is ridiculous.
A rogue cat burgular is going to spend time learning how to jump, twist, bend and all that nonsense. You inherently get better tumbling if you practice jumping, you inherently get better at balancing when you practice body control through tumbling, you inherently get better at jumping as you improve your balance.
Probably why they grouped them; though I do see your point, the high jumper cant necessarily do a back flip.
I liked the earlier editions of D&D's charts where each strength score gave you a Bend Bars / Lift Gates, bonus probability to hit and damage seperately, and the like. And Int affected your maximum possible spells known at each level. While I believe for the most part there was little difference in scores between 9 and 14ish, each number had its own specific set of differences past 3.X and PF's every 2 points is a mod. With how skills currently work it would be impractical to replace the mod system in favor of a set of tables but perhaps adding a similar system to what is in place?
Though I've had a few bugs with the skills in pathfinder. Jump, Balance, and Tumble were enough alike that they got rolled into one entity, but climb and swim were kept seperate. I understand swimming and climbing are different things, but no so much more different that long...
you should go back to a few pages ago, Kyrt-Ryder posted something I think he was working on.
Here it is: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Prowess_(3.5e_Sourcebook)
It describes changed skills. You might like it, I think there are some tiny things I disagree with but for the most part I like it.
Might not be a terrible look. I know they combined a lot of skills so you might not like that, but to be fair skill points are valuable to rogues and skill monkeys so forcing them to spread them out THAT much is ridiculous.
A rogue cat burgular is going to spend time learning how to jump, twist, bend and all that nonsense. You inherently get better tumbling if you practice jumping, you inherently get better at balancing when you practice body control through tumbling, you inherently get better at jumping as you improve your balance.
Probably why they grouped them; though I do see your point, the high jumper cant necessarily do a back flip.
I'll have to check out the site later, my work computer doesn't seem to like it. I'm okay with combining pre-existing skills I just feels that it takes careful planning and a strong empasis on consistancy for how alike things are combined to make every adjucate out properly. 3.5 had far too many skills, though some felt innately less useful than others in most circumstances (forgery comes to mind - amazing once in a while, useless the rest) and were great canidates to get rolled together. I used to scoop Nature, Geography, and Survival under one skill (Wilderness Knowledge) as well as Handle Animals and Ride (Animal Handling) in my 3.5 games along with some other mixes and eliminated synergy bonuses. I enjoy the short list on skills on the 4E setup, and probably like the training system more than the rank system as well, but I don't think a training system works so well for PF while I'd enjoy it if it did, perhaps more of a skill trick set up (loved those things). With the favored class bonus to an extra skill point and the slightly reduced list of what skills there are to take, while making class selections larger, I'm generally pleased. I think it was a step in the proper direction from 3.5. Its really a small handful of the skills themselves that I disagree with how I feel they should work.
maybe intelligence could tie in with total skills able to be learned?
Not sure what Dex, Wisdom, or Char scores themselves could do though.
I would love to see movement speed affected by a really high or low Dex. One of the things Pathfinder doesn't support (outside of burning feats for it) is people who are just randomly a little slower or faster than others. It could also be used as some kind of "advanced movement table".
Wisdom I could see having a table for "mental resistances", kind of like back in 2E. Characters with high Wis scores just shrug off certain effects, or maybe they gain special bonuses in specific situations (like gaining a bonus for delaying their action in battle, or something).
Charisma could have a lot of things. An "appearance" chart, a chance to attract very minor followers without the Leadership feat, a special bonus to actions that require graceful movement...anything like that. :)
Charisma could have a lot of things. An "appearance" chart, a chance to attract very minor followers without the Leadership feat, a special bonus to actions that require graceful movement...anything like that. :)
Reminds me of 2E psionics where upon reaching a certian level a psionicist attracted a handful of low level followers over time based off his charisma score, but if he failed to pay so many hours a week paying attention to them or teaching them they gradually left.
Also I like the idea for giving bonuses to speed based off of attribute scores as I think the game could try to emphasize movement a little more. While there are feats like spring attack and shot on the run, I see far more people passing up those options for more oppurtunities to full attack. Also I don't think the movement bonus should be based off of dex, perhaps con or str. Dex based characters are already the ones likely to be using higher mobility tatics or have increased movement already, like the monk. Fighters and mages generally move around a lot less, from what I've seen, so setting it toward a stat encouraging them to stop rooting themselves in place might be a decent idea.
maybe intelligence could tie in with total skills able to be learned?
Not sure what Dex, Wisdom, or Char scores themselves could do though.
I would love to see movement speed affected by a really high or low Dex. One of the things Pathfinder doesn't support (outside of burning feats for it) is people who are just randomly a little slower or faster than others. It could also be used as some kind of "advanced movement table".
Wisdom I could see having a table for "mental resistances", kind of like back in 2E. Characters with high Wis scores just shrug off certain effects, or maybe they gain special bonuses in specific situations (like gaining a bonus for delaying their action in battle, or something).
Charisma could have a lot of things. An "appearance" chart, a chance to attract very minor followers without the Leadership feat, a special bonus to actions that require graceful movement...anything like that. :)
Perhaps make people with better charisma get items cheaper??? wouldnt be unrealistic to say that right.
"Excuse me sir, I was wondering if you could use your employee discount to help me buy this shiny new purse, it goes great with my pouty lips" -- Some beautiful woman exploitress
"Ofcourse, you poor thing" Incompetent male.
Diplomacy after all should sometimes just be effortless. That girl cant argue she is just charismatic.
the dex movement thing needs to happen IMO, I think its ridiculous that a human wizard with scrawny arms and legs moves the same speed as a cat burglar human with maxed acrobatics ranks and a 20 dex... just doesnt rationalize well to me.
speed shouldnt be flat, although that is making the game SUPER complicated if it isnt.
maybe intelligence could tie in with total skills able to be learned?
Not sure what Dex, Wisdom, or Char scores themselves could do though.
I would love to see movement speed affected by a really high or low Dex. One of the things Pathfinder doesn't support (outside of burning feats for it) is people who are just randomly a little slower or faster than others. It could also be used as some kind of "advanced movement table".
Wisdom I could see having a table for "mental resistances", kind of like back in 2E. Characters with high Wis scores just shrug off certain effects, or maybe they gain special bonuses in specific situations (like gaining a bonus for delaying their action in battle, or something).
Charisma could have a lot of things. An "appearance" chart, a chance to attract very minor followers without the Leadership feat, a special bonus to actions that require graceful movement...anything like that. :)
Perhaps make people with better charisma get items cheaper??? wouldnt be unrealistic to say that right.
"Excuse me sir, I was wondering if you could use your employee discount to help me buy this shiny new purse, it goes great with my pouty lips" -- Some beautiful woman exploitress
"Ofcourse, you poor thing" Incompetent male.
Diplomacy after all should sometimes just be effortless. That girl cant argue she is just charismatic.
the dex movement thing needs to happen IMO, I think its ridiculous that a human wizard with scrawny arms and legs moves the same speed as a cat burglar human with maxed acrobatics ranks and a 20 dex... just doesnt rationalize well to me.
speed shouldnt be flat, although that is making the game SUPER complicated if it isnt.
Weren't there rules in some 3.5 supplement for haggling via diplomacy to get a 10% or a 20% discount based off of your result? I want to say the DC's were roughly 25/35 respectively. Complete Adventurer I think, but that may not be right.
Weren't there rules in some 3.5 supplement for haggling via diplomacy to get a 10% or a 20% discount based off of your result? I want to say the DC's were roughly 25/35 respectively. Complete Adventurer I think, but that may not be right.
Possibly, but I dont think it is in pathfinder, I wouldnt see why not but the costs dont list a friendly helpful unfriendly or hostile price difference.
Most DM's wouldnt alter prices unless there is a rule I would think, otherwise magic stuff becomes a problem when the diplomancer gets six +4 weapons for five silver...
Don't forget to bring the Fishy Stick to use when people get out of hand.No Paizo Tier System will be complete without Tier Fishy.Agreed. Though it needs to scale properly.
et tu Ryder? et tu?
After pondering the question for the last week, IMHO the worst thing about Pathfinder is also the worst thing about 3.x - the open ended arms race of continually increasing ACs, attack bonuses, saves, and DCs.
Partly, this is a player thing though it's hard to blame them. It makes sense for a player to do everything possible to make a character unhittable, or able to hit anything, or failing saves only on a 1, or pumping save DCs so high opponents need nat 20s vs save or suck.
But partly, this is a system problem. AD&D had a limited range of ACs from 10 to -10, only a few ways to improve THAC0, and saves that got better until a PC eventually reached the limit of saving on 2+ (there were no DCs).
These stats becoming open-ended gave rise to some of the more hated things in 3.x...
Save or Suck spells - In AD&D, it was a gamble to use these because while they were powerful, a passed save resulted in a wasted turn compared to an evocation spell which would still do half damage on a passed save (and affect multiple targets). In 3.x, the goal is to pump save DCs so high that save of suck spells will almost always work and evocation spells become useless by comparison.
The Big Six - Each of these are of primary importance for the arms race. While not much of a difference from AD&D, 3.x adds easy item creation rules and magic walmarts allowing players to sell off interesting/unique items in order to improve the power of the Big Six and power the arms race. Compare to AD&D where players collected and used these unique magic items.
PC Christmas trees - AD&D had limited ranges and limited ways to improve bonuses. 3.x added lots of new, stackable bonuses to power the open ended arms race - armor, shield, natural armor, luck, insight, enhancement, dodge, deflection, morale, sacred, size, competence, circumstance, and untyped (and I'm probably missing a few). And WotC gave us lots of new spells and magic items to get access to these bonuses. To a lesser degree, so has Pathinder.
A few examples from my experiences...
In the last campaign I played in (3.5), by level 11 most party members had 8-12 buff spells active with the cleric and wizard having as many as 20. Players were given cheat sheets detailing the buff spells with their effects and bonus types.
In the same campaign, the wizard had such high DCs it became obvious to everyone the DM was constantly fudging saving throws just to keep fights interesting.
In all 6 campaigns I've run, the party tank had such a high AC that only a few monsters in the module could hit him/her on something better than nat 20s. It was always better to attack other party members, if possible, as sometimes the monsters only needed 2s.
Most magic items will be sold to purchase the big six, a few other permanent items, and consumables. Considering how important the arms race is, just who in the campaign world is buying these items? Basic supply and demand should cause the prices of most items to be drastically cut.
In my last Kingmaker session, I had a level 6 paladin surrounded by 4 Trolls (CR5). Even with flanking, they still needed nat 20s to hit. A second level 6 paladin was making ride by attacks on his mount needing only 2s to hit the Trolls.
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et tu Ryder? et tu?Don't forget to bring the Fishy Stick to use when people get out of hand.No Paizo Tier System will be complete without Tier Fishy.Agreed. Though it needs to scale properly.
I'm actually surprised the fish hasn't shown up himself yet. I thought invoking his name summoned him or something. Must be out having a life this weekend, unlike us airbreathers.
I'm actually surprised the fish hasn't shown up himself yet. I thought invoking his name summoned him or something. Must be out having a life this weekend, unlike us airbreathers.et tu Ryder? et tu?Don't forget to bring the Fishy Stick to use when people get out of hand.No Paizo Tier System will be complete without Tier Fishy.Agreed. Though it needs to scale properly.
I had figured it was MR. Fishey I just didnt know he made a Tier system...
how curious.
I summon the all powerful Mr. Fishey, may he brand me with the stick of justice so that I may forever remember his name.
But partly, this is a system problem. AD&D had a limited range of ACs from 10 to -10, only a few ways to improve THAC0, and saves that got better until a PC eventually reached the limit of saving on 2+ (there were no DCs).
I must admit that I rather liked having a set Save vs. Spell, Save vs. Breath, et cetera, that was based off of class, plus minor bonuses from statistics and immunities to certian illusions and such. I'd like to see PF move in that general direction, but know with the current rules for spell DC's being so set it would be next to impossible, but a varient in a Unearthed Arcana type book would be nice.
The Big Six - Each of these are of primary importance for the arms race. While not much of a difference from AD&D, 3.x adds easy item creation rules and magic walmarts allowing players to sell off interesting/unique items in order to improve the power of the Big Six and power the arms race. Compare to AD&D where players collected and used these unique magic items.
Just yesterday a fellow DM and I sat down and did some heavy breakdowns of the wealth by level chart as it relates to ability score enhancers, saving throw enhancers, and AC enhancers. After a few hours of work we finally came up with a solid chart to remove these items from the game and give bonuses dependent on level to replace them and alter the WBL chart to compensate. I don't have it on me, but can post it later if you would like. A good amount of that time was spent to make sure that ability score increasing spells, AC buffing spells, and save increasing spells would still slightly outshine these bonuses while not stacking, still making the spells viable, while not ungodly powerful. The average AC of a front line melee character stayed pretty much the same in our houserule varient while facilitating more body slots and money available towards interesting gear. Rogue/Monks/Bards probably got the most solid boost out of the varient, along with Barbarian, which isn't a bad thing in our opionin, and it makes Wizard's and Sorcerer's AC a bit more viable at higher levels easing up on their percentile miss chance spell demands, which I felt was a great boon for the Sorcerer in particular.
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Please do. There's a huge section of forum regulars who hate the christmas tree.
Just yesterday a fellow DM and I sat down and did some heavy breakdowns of the wealth by level chart as it relates to ability score enhancers, saving throw enhancers, and AC enhancers. After a few hours of work we finally came up with a solid chart to remove these items from the game and give bonuses dependent on level to replace them and alter the WBL chart to compensate. I don't have it on me, but can post it later if you would like.
DO IT.
Just yesterday a fellow DM and I sat down and did some heavy breakdowns of the wealth by level chart as it relates to ability score enhancers, saving throw enhancers, and AC enhancers. After a few hours of work we finally came up with a solid chart to remove these items from the game and give bonuses dependent on level to replace them and alter the WBL chart to compensate. I don't have it on me, but can post it later if you would like.
I'd be very very interested it seeing it. Each campaign I experiment with new house rules and Serpent's Skull seems like the perfect time to try removing the big six.
DARN YOU POST MONSTER!
*Sigh*
I really need to start 'copying' my posts before I hit submit.
Anyways, I had a long, detailed post explaining the process we went through coming up with the chart and the fractual formulas involved and now...
I'll have to post it LATE tonight when I get off work (just after seven here, I work until at least eleven), or tomorrow. If you want to see it immediately it is on Gaiaonline's Table Top Gaming Sub-Forum. I unfortunetly can't link you because my work computer blocks out the site.
All the abilities granted will be SU, thus going down in an antimagic field in kind with the items they will be replacing. Although on the other forums I've posted the list on it seems most players wish they were EX.
For quick adjucation of treasure allotment we just tell players to go down an effective level on the WBL chart as it comes out to a bit more than that on average, cash wise, but the items that will be replacing those body slots will be less universal and more situational as well as being less overall powerful.
The bonuses we decided to give out off the top of my head were, when capped:
+5 Enhancement to Armor or Clothing
+5 Enhancement to Shield
+3 Deflection to AC
+2 Natural to AC
+4 Resistance to Saves
+8 Enhancement to one Statistic
+6 Enhancement to one Statistic
+4 Enhancement to one Statistic
+2 Enhancement to one Statistic
Seems low for Natural and Deflection AC? We wanted to make sure that spells like Holy Aura and Magic Circle still had a stong effect, also the numbers crunched fine when we did sample characters of various classes at levels 5, 9, 13, 17, and 20. Same for the Resistance bonus on saving throws. Note that TWF, THF, Monks, and Casters will not benefit form the Shield Enhancement.
Keeps sword and board fighters at around a respectible 20 + lvl AC before feats, spells, and items that inadvertantly bump AC. Those without shields not to far behind, and helps casters keep up a lot better without the need for bracers of armor or just having to just assume they'll be hit by all a mosters attacks without percentile miss chances.
It seemed to work optimally with 15 or 20 point buy, but got a bit unbalanced when players using 25 had the few extra points to burn.
We decided to scrap the inherent bonus from the books.
Like I said, the exact advancement chart will be typed up later.
All the abilities granted will be SU, thus going down in an antimagic field in kind with the items they will be replacing. Although on the other forums I've posted the list on it seems most players wish they were EX.
For quick adjucation of treasure allotment we just tell players to go down an effective level on the WBL chart as it comes out to a bit more than that on average, cash wise, but the items that will be replacing those body slots will be less universal and more situational as well as being less overall powerful.
The bonuses we decided to give out off the top of my head were, when capped:
+5 Enhancement to Armor or Clothing
+5 Enhancement to Shield
+3 Deflection to AC
+2 Natural to AC
+4 Resistance to Saves
+8 Enhancement to one Statistic
+6 Enhancement to one Statistic
+4 Enhancement to one Statistic
+2 Enhancement to one StatisticSeems low for Natural and Deflection AC? We wanted to make sure that spells like Holy Aura and Magic Circle still had a stong effect, also the numbers crunched fine when we did sample characters of various classes at levels 5, 9, 13, 17, and 20. Same for the Resistance bonus on saving throws. Note that TWF, THF, Monks, and Casters will not benefit form the Shield Enhancement.
Keeps sword and board fighters at around a respectible 20 + lvl AC before feats, spells, and items that inadvertantly bump AC. Those without shields not to far behind, and helps casters keep up a lot better without the need for bracers of armor or just having to just assume they'll be hit by all a mosters attacks without percentile miss chances.
It seemed to work optimally with 15 or 20 point buy, but got a bit unbalanced when players using 25 had the few extra points to burn.
We decided to scrap the inherent bonus from the books.
Like I said, the exact advancement chart will be typed up later.
well im game for this bate... whenever you want to satiate my curiousity Ringtail
well im game for this bate... whenever you want to satiate my curiousity Ringtail
Unfortunetely it is still at least another 3 hours away as I'm stuck at work and it is tacked up at home on the cork board above my game table. I don't know if you've ever been on Gaiaonline (it is frequented mostly by tweens and teens with antisocial tendencies so when I pop over I hide away in the very slow moving Table-Top-Gaming Sub-Forum). But I have it posted there on the front page of the Sub-Forum. If nothing else I'm eager to post it when I do get back because I'd love some feedback to tweak it to more or less perfection. Right now it seems more than solid for our games but would love an outside perspective.
well im game for this bate... whenever you want to satiate my curiousity RingtailUnfortunetely it is still at least another 3 hours away as I'm stuck at work and it is tacked up at home on the cork board above my game table. I don't know if you've ever been on Gaiaonline (it is frequented mostly by tweens and teens with antisocial tendencies so when I pop over I hide away in the very slow moving Table-Top-Gaming Sub-Forum). But I have it posted there on the front page of the Sub-Forum. If nothing else I'm eager to post it when I do get back because I'd love some feedback to tweak it to more or less perfection. Right now it seems more than solid for our games but would love an outside perspective.
Ill remain patient, I too am not a fan of Gaia...
i could tell you why but id be breaking two very important rules :)
dont ask what those are because I cant tell you anyways haha
While I'm killing time I'd like to bring up a little bit about alignment. I understand that it is a basic game mechanic for fueling spells and abilities (Chaos Hammer, Smite Evil, Magic Circle, ect), but I would love to effectively do away with or revamp it. Unfortunately I'm at a loss as to how.
Over the last several years I've seen players use alignment as an excuse for all sorts of stupid shenanigans and allow it to even dictate their actions to varying degrees of idiocy. I've rarely seen any two people agree on what the alignment perameters are as what constitutes as "evil" when not specifically mentioned by descriptor.
Simply removing it from the game does not feel like viable option, what with classes having alignment restrictions and spells and abilities that regularly reference them (smite evil and detect evil come to mind). Also with Outsiders and their spell like abilities and damage reduction.
I guess that I just wish that with a hard, set in stone alignment system the alignments themselves would be a little better fleshed out and explained, or there would be a good varient that remove alignments that wouldn't strengthen or dampen any class or creature that hinges on alignments to function properly.
I can't fault PF for not having one as I myself have a difficult time working one out that keeps everyone in the group content, and I imagine building one for a system that has a ton of fans would be incredibly hard to do.
neat level bonus tree
I liked the idea of making bonuses based off of BAB. That was something we hadn't thought of. Now I'm wrestling with the ideas of whether I feel that is penalizing lower BAB classes or if it is fitting to give the warriors a stronger combat bonus.
On ours we decided to stay away from messing with weapon enhancements but I can definately see the bonus in a low magic game to keep the players competitive for their CR.
Oh, here is a question we'd like answered. Since we already add an enhancement bonus to armor and shields but don't want to remove the special abilities there of, in fact we'd like to add new more exciting abilities, but we are having a bit of trouble with what to do about the needed +1 before the abilities. I know that many don't require it (those with flat GP values to add), but with those that do what do we are having trouble deciding how to adjucate their costs. After all, should we still make people pay the price of a +2 shield to get a bashing sheild in our system?
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While I'm killing time I'd like to bring up a little bit about alignment. I understand that it is a basic game mechanic for fueling spells and abilities (Chaos Hammer, Smite Evil, Magic Circle, ect), but I would love to effectively do away with or revamp it. Unfortunately I'm at a loss as to how.
Every creature that does not have an alignment subtype or aura is treated as Neutral for all alignment dependent effects.
I haven't playtested it with a paladin, but so far I haven't had a problem with it. I would recommend just making Smite Evil into Smite. The paladin doesn't get it enough times per day to make it a problem.
While I'm killing time I'd like to bring up a little bit about alignment. I understand that it is a basic game mechanic for fueling spells and abilities (Chaos Hammer, Smite Evil, Magic Circle, ect), but I would love to effectively do away with or revamp it. Unfortunately I'm at a loss as to how.Every creature that does not have an alignment subtype or aura is treated as Neutral for all alignment dependent effects.
I haven't playtested it with a paladin, but so far I haven't had a problem with it. I would recommend just making Smite Evil into Smite. The paladin doesn't get it enough times per day to make it a problem.
Thought about it, dismised it. Being able to smite a dire wolf puppy doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps smite anything with an intelligence score of 3 or greater (thus facilitating "intelligent" and coherent thought and speech)?
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Thought about it, dismised it. Being able to smite a dire wolf puppy doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps smite anything with an intelligence score of 3 or greater (thus facilitating "intelligent" and coherent thought and speech)?
Or you could have different strengths of smite depending on what is being smited. Neutral creatures are still harmed by Holy Smite, after all. Maybe have it revert to 3.5 Smite for appropriate creatures, like the puppy.
From where I'm standing, there's nothing wrong with giving Paladins (and Anti-paladins) Smite-anything. (It's a 3.5 feat that saw frequent use in my games anyway.)
Basically, the Paladin has been given the power of his God (or the power of justice and good and all that crap if you prefer) to smite those who need smiting. Giving him smite anything simply means that he is trusted to use his judgment on whom he smites, smiting something innocent like a puppy would likely cause problems with his divine connection/paladin hood. (However, smiting the equally neutral aligned adult that is an attack beast for an evil warlord would be completely legitimate)
I conceed the point.
If nothing else the idea of a non-lawful non-good paladin was always an idea I liked to entertain. Not neccessarily an anti-paladin, but the CG Holy Liberators, NG champions, and LN Knights of a lord were always neat. Course the Knight in 3.5, a flavorful fighter or ranger, or in PF the Cavalier sweep up those positions nicely.
I do kind of like the alignment system, I think it just gets used improperly at times.
For example: why is the monk lawful? I've seen many martial artists of many different styles over the years, and only some of them are about discipline and study. A lot are just about learning as you go, and fighting with wild and unpredictable motions.
It would be more realistic to have a fighting style for the monk based on being lawful, neutral or chaotic. :)
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I am not sure if someone has pointed this out or not. I think it's not so much Fighters are weak though imo they could use a small increase in the damage they do. It's because the fighter unlike the rest of the classes does not have anything unique going for it as a class. Sure a player could multiclass and take levels in other classes yet as a stand alone class imo it has nothing special likethe rest. Not only that you can take feats to emulate what the Fighter does. It would be a waste of time yet it can be done.
-Bonus feats They get a lot more yet so does everyon else
-Bravery not bad yet pretty much imo meh compared to what other get
-Weapon/Armor training cam be done by another class with the right amount of feats.
Contrast this with the Rogue who gets talents or a Ranger with the combat style. So much more interesting abilites and the fighter to me is boring. What I think is needed is a Fighter class with more interesting abilites and/or more damage capaablity.
I also agree with ringtail in that the older Str charts just made having a high Str more interesting with more effects.
I am not sure if someone has pointed this out or not. I think it's not so much Fighters are weak though imo they could use a small increase in the damage they do. It's because the fighter unlike the rest of the classes does not have anything unique going for it as a class. Sure a player could multiclass and take levels in other classes yet as a stand alone class imo it has nothing special likethe rest. Not only that you can take feats to emulate what the Fighter does. It would be a waste of time yet it can be done.
-Bonus feats They get a lot more yet so does everyon else
-Bravery not bad yet pretty much imo meh compared to what other get
-Weapon/Armor training cam be done by another class with the right amount of feats.Contrast this with the Rogue who gets talents or a Ranger with the combat style. So much more interesting abilites and the fighter to me is boring. What I think is needed is a Fighter class with more interesting abilites and/or more damage capaablity.
I also agree with ringtail in that the older Str charts just made having a high Str more interesting with more effects.
I think this is a valid point... prior to the APG.
The APG just makes fighters awesome IMO, gives them striking abilities at fighting. That is afterall their schtick, its the name of the class.
If you dont want to play a fighter thats solely good at fighting then that is a little weird, would you play a wizard if you didnt want the wizard to just have magic? (yes they get schools now but fighters get weird abilities with fighting styles due to the APG)
I just dont really see this as a problem. And weapon and armor training is not really emulatable by other classes, not to mention the feats that are fighter specific and no other class can take.
There are alot of things you can argue about why the fighter could use some love (skill point lovers out there) but I really dont see why they should get something like talents or powers.
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Here it is, my monk friendly version. :P
1 No Change
2 +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to armor/clothing)
3 +1 Deflection Bonus to AC
4 +2 Enhancement Bonus to 1 Statistic, +1 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to shield)
5 +1 Resistance Bonus on Saving Throws
6 +2 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to armor/clothing)
7 +1 Natural Armor Bonus to AC
8 +2 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to shield)
9 +4 Enhancement Bonus to Statistic that got +2 at Lvl 4, +2 to another stat, +2 Resistance Bonus on Saving Throws
10 +3 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to armor/clothing)
11 +2 Deflection Bonus to AC
12 +3 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to shield)
13 +3 Resistance Bonus on Saving Throws
14 +4 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to armor/clothing), +6/+4/+2 to Stats (6 on the 4, 4 on the 2, and 2 to a new stat)
15 +2 Natural Armor Bonus to AC
16 +4 Enhancement Bonus to AC (applied to shield)
17 +4 Resistance Bonus on Saving Throws
18 +5 to armor/clothing
19 +8/+6/+4/+2 to Stats (I think you get the pattern by now)
20 +5 to shield
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As far as the monk is concerned I would just create 4 different categories with one primary stat for each:
Str Monk- Uses STR for damage, to hit, AC (and DR) + can sub out his Str bonus for his fort save modifier. Ki abilities reflect feats of strength
Dex monk - Uses DX for damage, to hit, AC (and evasion) + temp (dodge/luck) hit points. Ki abilities reflect feats of agility
Con Monk - Uses Con for damage, to hit, AC, DR and feats of damage avoidance/survival. Ki abilities reflect feats of endurance
Wis Monk - Uses Wis for damage, to hit, AC and all saves. Insight and initiative bonuses. Ki abilities reflect feats of wisdom and mysticism.
Also throw in Ki power use to provide a temp +4 bonus to any of these four stats for variable durations (3 rounds + level/use), doesn't matter what kind of monk. Ki pool points are based off primary monk stat, not Wis (unless Wis monk).
Just some ideas to get rid of MAD.