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| 7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
This spell could be useful against incorporeal undead, save the fact that a fortitude save is allowed and:
Undead Traits (Ex) Undead are immune to death
effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms,
compulsions, morale effects, phantasms, and patterns),
paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires
a Fortitude save [...]
So shall we conlude this spell does not work with undead?
I don't have a copy of the APG, could you post the spell?
Don't the Undead Traits say it is immune to fortitude saves unless that fortitude save would affect objects or specifically states that it affects undead? Or am I thinking 3.5?
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I don't have a copy of the APG, could you post the spell?
Don't the Undead Traits say it is immune to fortitude saves unless that fortitude save would affect objects
(unless the effect also works on objects
or is harmless)Target one incorporeal creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
The target coalesces into a semi-physical form for a short period
of time. While subject to the spell, the incorporeal creature
takes half damage (50%) from nonmagical attack forms, and
full damage from magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects, and
supernatural effects.
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It is a simple mistake of consistency. Go ahead and flag it for errata and for now simply let it work as written and add a sentence that reads "This spell bypasses the normal immunity to effects that provide a fortitude save granted by undead traits."
IMHO I would prefer is this spell granted a Will save instead (so no exception to Undead Immunities would be required)
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IMHO I would prefer is this spell granted a Will save instead (so no exception to Undead Immunities would be required)
I disagree only on the basis of the fact that will saves are not for things that physically influence something, but instead how they are mentally affected. This spell is ALL about actually physically altering the composition of the creature, and falls quite centrally on what fort saves are for.
For a quick fix I might substitute one for the other during play but in terms of an actual fix (and one that can be used in a Society game), I think this fits more consistently with the nature of saves in general and the RAI of the spell.
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Specific trumps general. I'd let it work on incorporeal undead.
Except the specific is incorporeal creature...not incorporeal undead...so the specifics does not trump general in this case. If the target had specifically said incorporeal creature or undead, then yes it would trump the general undead trait.
It is a simple mistake of consistency. Go ahead and flag it for errata and for now simply let it work as written and add a sentence that reads "This spell bypasses the normal immunity to effects that provide a fortitude save granted by undead traits."
Just to play devil's advocate, that assumes they want the spell to work on undead creatures...
Given that the spell is called "Ghostbane Dirge", I think that's a safe assumption.
Just to play devil's advocate, that assumes they want the spell to work on undead creatures...
I agree but at times things are named so an so and might not work the way you think they would.
I agree but at times things are named so an so and might not work the way you think they would.Given that the spell is called "Ghostbane Dirge", I think that's a safe assumption.
Just to play devil's advocate, that assumes they want the spell to work on undead creatures...
Oh come on! The general consensus is that it should affect undead, so it should. Are you devil's advocating just to be contrary? The whole fortitude thing is pretty annoying and self limiting for design purposes. It's the problem with blanket immunities in general.
RAW, Ghostbane Dirge fails, RAI, safe bet it does.