Would you allow the class described below in your campaign? If not, what would you take away? (Or if it is underpowered, what would you add back?)
This is sort of a druid/barbarian. I envision it as an native american indian warrior class that is part of a tribe that is close to animals.
From the druid they get:
*Nature bond
*Several Nature Feats (Nature Sense @1; Wild Empathy @1; Woodland Stride @2; Trackless Step @3; Resist Nature’s Lure @4; Venom Immunity @9; A Thousand Faces @13; Timeless body @15)
*Wild Shape (1/day @4; 2/day @6; 3/day @8; 4/day @10; 5/day@12; 6/day @14; 7/day @16; 8/day @18; At Will @20)
From the barbarian they get:
*Rage (Rage @1; Rage Power @2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20; Greater Rage @11; Indomitable Will @14; Tireless Rage @17; Mighty Rage @20)
*A Few Maneuverability Feats (Fast Movement @1; Uncanny dodge @2; Improved uncanny dodge @5)
The hit die splits the difference of the two classes: d10.
They get the Barbarian's base attack bonus progression.
They get 4 skill points/level (as do both barbarians and druids).
They get the druid's armor options (Light, Medium non-metal armor and non-tower shields).
Finally they get to use all simple weapons plus one "favored" weapon of their tribe. (More like a cleric.)
Does that seem particularly unbalanced compared to other base classes?
Would you allow the class described below in your campaign? If not, what would you take away? (Or if it is underpowered, what would you add back?)
This is sort of a druid/barbarian. I envision it as an native american indian warrior class that is part of a tribe that is close to animals.
From the druid they get:
*Nature bond
*Several Nature Feats (Nature Sense @1; Wild Empathy @1; Woodland Stride @2; Trackless Step @3; Resist Nature’s Lure @4; Venom Immunity @9; A Thousand Faces @13; Timeless body @15)
*Wild Shape (1/day @4; 2/day @6; 3/day @8; 4/day @10; 5/day@12; 6/day @14; 7/day @16; 8/day @18; At Will @20)From the barbarian they get:
*Rage (Rage @1; Rage Power @2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20; Greater Rage @11; Indomitable Will @14; Tireless Rage @17; Mighty Rage @20)
*A Few Maneuverability Feats (Fast Movement @1; Uncanny dodge @2; Improved uncanny dodge @5)The hit die splits the difference of the two classes: d10.
They get the Barbarian's base attack bonus progression.
They get 4 skill points/level (as do both barbarians and druids).
They get the druid's armor options (Light, Medium non-metal armor and non-tower shields).
Finally they get to use all simple weapons plus one "favored" weapon of their tribe. (More like a cleric.)Does that seem particularly unbalanced compared to other base classes?
This seems a little over the top...
Granted you don't seem to keep any of the spells, but you're basicly gestalt-ing a barby and a dr00d.Keeping all druid abilities, plus all barb abilities...this guy will be nigh unstoppable. Give him a druids animal companion on top of that...damn. Raging while wild shaped...<shiver>
Lower his BAB to 3/4. Lower his HP to D8. Stretch out his wild shape so he never gets druid top shifting, make the pet as per druid companion -3, cut the number of rage powers in half...
Or make it a ranger.
since you're so directly mimicking two classes, I'm not sure it merits its own class. It seems like you could accomplish this concept by simply taking class levels in both barbarian and druid.
As is i'd agree that it seems like you're gaining far more than you're losing, and is possibly over-the-top.
The ranger suggestion isn't all that helpful since he's clearly trying to build something that's a combination of rage and wildshape. (Though when I initially read the thread title I had the same thought.)
since you're so directly mimicking two classes, I'm not sure it merits its own class. It seems like you could accomplish this concept by simply taking class levels in both barbarian and druid.
As is i'd agree that it seems like you're gaining far more than you're losing, and is possibly over-the-top.
The ranger suggestion isn't all that helpful since he's clearly trying to build something that's a combination of rage and wildshape. (Though when I initially read the thread title I had the same thought.)
I meant it might be easier to give a ranger a toned down rage mechanic and limited shapeshifting to get what was desired...
I was working on a class similar to this. Its main class feature was similar to the binder's ability to bind with vestiges, but that can probably be traded out for some other stuff.
For example, you could add some class skills and possible more skill points, double the bonus for Counting Coup, and replace the additional Totems known with abilities similar to the Rage Powers of a barbarian or the Talents of a rogue. Or just move the Warpath powers to 2nd level and every even level, and then fill the resulting empty levels with favored terrain or some new class features, like uncanny dodge, etc.
Brave
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Braves are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, Light and Medium Armor, and Shields (but not Tower Shields).
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Bind Totem, Initial Totems, Counting Coup +1
2. Totem
3. Warpath
4. Totem
5. Counting Coup +2
6. Totem
7. Warpath
8. Bind Two Totems, Totem
9. Counting Coup +3
10. Totem
11. Warpath
12. Totem
13. Counting Coup +4
14. Totem
15. Warpath
16. Bind Three Totems, Totem
17. Counting Coup +5
18. Totem
19. Warpath
20. Totem
Bind Totem (Su). The Brave can bind any totem he knows. He gains the ability to use any ability the totem grants that he qualifies for. The Save DC of any ability he gains from binding with a totem is equal to 10 + ½ his level + his Charisma modifier. At 8th level, the Brave can bind 2 totems at the same time, but both totems must be from different categories. At 16th level, the Brave can bind 3 totems at the same, selecting a single totem from each of the three categories of totems.
Initial Totems (Su). At 1st level, the Brave gains one Ancestral Totem, one Animal Totem, and one Elemental Totem. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the Brave selects an additional totem from any of the three categories of totems.
Counting Coup (Ex). Beginning at 1st level, the Brave gains a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as to his CMB and CMD, for the remaining of the encounter against an opponent they have already successfully struck in melee or made a successful melee touch attack against. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, and +4 to 13th level, and +5 at 17th level.
Warpath (Su). Beginning at 3rd level, the Brave gains a Warpath power. He gains an additional Warpath ability at level 7 and every 4 levels there after. The Brave can activate a Warpath ability as an immediate action and it lasts for 1 round. The Brave can use his Warpath abilities for a number of rounds per day equal to his class level + his Constitution bonus.
Warpath Attack. The Brave gains a +2 bonus to his initiative for every +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Defense. The Brave gains DR 2/- per +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Dodge. The Brave gains a Dodge bonus to AC equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Hardiness. The Brave reduces any ability damage, ability drain, or penalties to his ability scores by an amount equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Healing. The Brave heals 5 hit points per +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Resistance. The Brave selects one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The Brave gains energy resistance 5 per +1 of his Counting Coup bonus against the selected energy type.
Warpath Saves. The Brave gains a +1 bonus to his Saving Throws for every +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Speed. The Brave gains a 10 foot enhancement bonus to his speed for every +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Steadiness. The Brave gains a +2 bonus to his CMD for every +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Toughness. The Brave gains 10 temporary hit points for every +1 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I did want to follow up on this one point as it most directly critiques where I'm trying to go with this...
Keeping all druid abilities, plus all barb abilities...this guy will be nigh unstoppable. Give him a druids animal companion on top of that...damn. Raging while wild shaped...<shiver>
So would you (or anyone else) see an issue with rage and wild shape together, even if all other from the two classes are dropped (barbarian's maneuverability feats, trap sense, damage reduction; druid's spells/orisons, nature bond, nature feats)?
In the example above I'm already dropping trap sense and damage reduction from the barbarian; and spells/orisons from the druid. I'm also lowering the hit die to d10 and limiting the armor to a druid's and sort of splitting the difference with the weapons.
For simplicity I'm really trying to just fit things together as-is, without changing ability sets around such as making wild shape increase every 5 levels instead of every 2; etc.
The general rule of thumb should be, if you want to mix 2 class' abilities into one base class, that hybrid should not be better at those abilities than the core focused class.
Your hybrid should not:
Be able to shift as well (same amount of shapes, duration, etc.) as a druid.
Rage as well (times/day, greater rage, no fatigue)or with as many options (rage powers) as a barbarian.
Leaving out spells is big, but not a big as you'd think. A person can only do so much per round. Removing DR isn't actually that big of a deal either.
If you want to see how this should look, make a 10 barb/10 druid.
Look at the strength of its abilities at 20 (with smart use of feats).
This will give you an idea of the power level each individual ability can/should have. Then remove things, and increase others, but keep in mind these things should not match the core class' strength in those areas. 3/4 tops.
Just my 2 cp.
Leaving out spells is big, but not a big as you'd think.
I couldn't disagree more: losing all spellcasting leaves a burnt-out husk of a class. Yeah, the pet is nice, but with the wild shape nerfs in Pathfinder, WS isn't what it used to be. Druids excel at summoning and battlefield control; the latter is what they're best at. Take those away and the druid is barely a support class, if that. Giving that chassis rage and full BAB to make up for it is not in any way game-breaking, as near as I can tell.
Looking at ANY multiclass combination involving druid is therefore deceptive, because even a Barb 10/Druid 10 (as in your example) has 10 levels of spellcasting (in other words, 10 levels in an actual class) that this guy will never get.
Leaving out spells is big, but not a big as you'd think.I couldn't disagree more: losing all spellcasting leaves a burnt-out husk of a class. Yeah, the pet is nice, but with the wild shape nerfs in Pathfinder, WS isn't what it used to be. Druids excel at summoning and battlefield control; the latter is what they're best at. Take those away and the druid is barely a support class, if that. Giving that chassis rage and full BAB to make up for it is not in any way game-breaking, as near as I can tell.
Looking at ANY multiclass combination involving druid is therefore deceptive, because even a Barb 10/Druid 10 (as in your example) has 10 levels of spellcasting (in other words, 10 levels in an actual class) that this guy will never get.
My perspective comes from the big pitcure; meaning, any class can have
all kinds of class features, but he can (most likely) only do any one of them per round. Since this is meant to be a melee class, the ability to cast rounds of buffs pre-combat or to buff the pet is all he's really losing, imho. He's not gonna rage (cant cast while raged anyhoo) then take a 5' step back and cast or try to cast defensively. For the purpose of the OP's character concept ONLY, losing spell casting is no big deal.Taking away spell casting, but leaving everything else intact, and adding rage, rage powers, uncanny dodge, fast movement...in and of themselves is not too powerfull. Giveing them at full face value is damn near playing a gestalt druid/barbarian, minus the spell casting.
A hybrid class should not be as good as it's parent classes at their class abilities.
I guess I need a disclaimer that this is all opinion.
A hybrid class should not be as good as it's parent classes at their class abilities.
Again, I'm zeroing in here because this comment directly addresses where I'm going.
I'm *trying* to create/allow hybrids that are as good as the parent classes at the abilities the hybrid retains. So is there something wrong with that? I'm hoping not and here's why...
The reason for that is many people who multiclass spellcasters in particular lament that their spellcasting becomes near worthless when it is a Sorcerer5/Something 5 vs. a Sorcerer 10. (Even though they get all those other abilities from the other class, something breaks down mathematically that a 1/2 this and 1/2 that doesn't equal a whole this or that.)
So my idea is to let the player pick sets of class abilities (unchanged) from two or more classes in order to multiclass. The example above is the result of what I'm testing.
As another less detailed example of the spellcasting issue (which I bet you're familiar with) take a sorcerer/monk. The idea is if I keep the sorcerer's spells and drop all the bloodline stuff, what could I take from the monk that will balance the class and come close to matching a player's character concept. The idea is to keep the resulting new class roughly balanced compared to the sorcerer and monk and any other base class. Alternately, maybe I want a monk with bloodline stuff from the sorcerer. What do I drop from a monk to get bloodline powers and feats. (Maybe not the bloodline spells because this class isn't a spellcaster.) Those are just example/rhetorical questions to give you an idea of where I'm going and why.
But thanks again for the opinions, this is all very helpful. Please do comment further as you see fit.
A hybrid class should not be as good as it's parent classes at their class abilities.
Again, I'm zeroing in here because this comment directly addresses where I'm going.
I'm *trying* to create/allow hybrids that are as good as the parent classes at the abilities the hybrid retains.
The reason for that is many people who multiclass spellcasters in particular lament that their spellcasting becomes near worthless when it is a Sorcerer5/Something 5 vs. a Sorcerer 10. (Even though they get all those other abilities from the other class, something breaks down mathematically that a 1/2 this and 1/2 that doesn't equal a whole this or that.)
So my idea is to let the player pick sets of class abilities (unchanged) from two or more classes in order to multiclass. The example above is the result of what I'm testing.
As another less detailed example of the spellcasting issue (which I bet you're familiar with) take a sorcerer/monk. The idea is if I keep the sorcerer's spells and drop all the bloodline stuff, what could I take from the monk that will balance the class and come close to matching a player's character concept. The idea is to keep the resulting new class roughly balanced compared to the sorcerer and monk and any other base class. Alternately, maybe I want a monk with bloodline stuff from the sorcerer. What do I drop from a monk to get bloodline powers and feats. (Maybe not the bloodline spells because this class isn't a spellcaster.) Those are just example/rhetorical questions to give you an idea of where I'm going and why.
But thanks again for the opinions, this is all very helpful. Please do comment further as you see fit.
Keeping this all in mind...
My suggestion is:d8 HP
3/4 BAB
2 good saves.
Keep everything else how you like it.
I believe that Kirth (posted above), has been working on a more modular, classless system, that may help you. Maybe he'll share it, if you ask nicely.
I believe that Kirth (posted above), has been working on a more modular, classless system, that may help you. Maybe he'll share it, if you ask nicely.
That's sort of where I'm going (or have gone). In my case it is more like the 2nd edition DMG class-building rules if you remember that. The idea is to break down each core class into groups of abilities, give each group a weight and give the player points to spend. But you can't buy things a la cart because I feel there could be too much min/maxing. (However, some ability "groups" are just one ability because the ability is important enough or nothing else in the class went with it.)
Here's some more notes on it, although all the numbers have been revised since: http://inkwellideas.com/?p=1025
If Kirth or anyone has done something similar, please post. I'd love to have second and third opinions on things.
I believe that Kirth (posted above), has been working on a more modular, classless system, that may help you. Maybe he'll share it, if you ask nicely.
I did one for the Beta playtest, quite some time ago. Google "Kirth Gersen Classless" and see what comes up -- it should still be around somewhere.
Currently, my (very melee-friendly) homebrew rules allow rangers to get some rage abilities in exchange for their combat style -- that might be the sort of thing you'd be interested in, too.
Brave
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge geography, Knowledge nature, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Braves are proficient in all Simple Weapons, light melee Martial Weapons, longbows and short bows (and the composite versions of each), Light and Medium Armor, and Shields (but not Tower Shields).
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Counting Coup +2, Nature Bond, Traditional Combat
2. Warpath
3. Bravado
4. Warpath
5. Counting Coup +4
6. Warpath
7. Traditional Combat Training +1
8. Warpath
9. Improved Bravado
10. Counting Coup +6, Warpath
11. Swift Strike
12. Warpath
13. Traditional Combat Training +2
14. Warpath
15. Counting Coup +8
16. Warpath
17. Greater Bravado
18. Warpath
19. Traditional Combat Training +3
20. Counting Coup +10, Warpath
Counting Coup (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, the brave gains a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls, as well as to his CMB and CMD, for the remaining of the encounter against an opponent they have already successfully struck in melee or made a successful melee touch attack against. The brave can only get this bonus against a single opponent at a time; if the brave counts coup against a new opponent, he loses the counting coup bonus against the previous opponent. This bonus increases to +4 at 5th level, +6 at 10th level, and +8 to 15th level, and +10 at 20th level.
Nature Bond (Ex): The brave chooses one of two nature bonds: either an animal companion or the ability to guide his companions in combat.
If the brave chooses an animal companion, he gains the services of an animal companion as if he were a druid equal to his brave class level.
If the brave chooses to the ability to guide his companions in combat, he can spend a move action and grant a number of allies equal to his class level a morale bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to ½ his counting coup bonus against the opponent he has counted coup against. This bonus persists for a number of rounds equal to the brave’s Wisdom bonus (minimum 1 round).
Traditional Combat (Ex): At 1st level, the brave selects one of three traditional combat styles: Defensive Combat, Light Melee Weapon Combat, or Ranged Weapon Combat.
Braves that select the Defensive Combat style add their Wisdom bonus as a dodge bonus to AC to when they are not wearing any armor and have a light load or less; they gain this bonus when using shields (but not tower shields). This bonus increases by +1 at 7th level and every 6 levels thereafter.
Braves that select the Light Melee Weapon Combat style gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. They gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with light melee weapons at 7th level; this bonus increases by +1 at 13th level and 19th level.
Braves that select the Ranged Weapon Combat style gain Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level. They gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at 7th level; this bonus increases by +1 at 13th level and 19th level.
Warpath (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, the brave gains a Warpath power. He gains an additional Warpath ability at level 4 and every 2 levels thereafter. The brave can activate a Warpath ability as an immediate action and it lasts for 1 round. The brave can use his Warpath abilities for a number of rounds per day equal to his class level + his Constitution bonus.
Warpath Athlete: The brave gains a bonus to his Acrobatics, Climb, Ride, and Swim skill checks equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Attack: The brave gains a bonus to his initiative rolls equal to his Counting Coup bonus. Unlike most uses of Warpath, this use of the Warpath ability does not take an action to use.
Warpath Dodge: The brave gains a Dodge bonus to AC equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Durability: The brave gains DR/- equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Hardiness: The brave reduces any ability damage, ability drain, or penalties to his ability scores by an amount equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Healing: The brave heals 5 hit points per +2 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Maneuver: The brave gains a bonus to his CMB equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Presence: The brave gains a bonus to his Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, and Intimidate skill checks equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Resistance: The brave selects one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The brave gains energy resistance 5 per +2 of his Counting Coup bonus against the selected energy type.
Warpath Saves: The brave gains a bonus to his Saving Throws equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Scout: The brave gains a bonus to his Escape Artist and Stealth skill checks equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Senses: The brave gains a bonus to his Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival skill checks equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Speed: The brave gains a 10 foot enhancement bonus to his speed for every +2 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Spirit: The brave gains a 10% miss chance for every +2 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Steadiness: The brave gains a bonus to his CMD equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Strength: The brave gains a bonus to Strength checks equal to his Counting Coup bonus.
Warpath Toughness: The brave gains 10 temporary hit points for every +2 of his Counting Coup bonus.
Bravado (Ex): At 3rd level, the brave adds his Counting Coup bonus as a morale bonus to saving throws versus fear.
Improved Bravado (Ex): At 9th level, the brave treats any fear effect as if it were category less than normal. For example, if the brave would normally be panicked, he is frightened instead. If the brave would normally be frightened, he is shaken instead. If the brave would normally be shaken, he is not affected by that fear effect.
Greater Bravado (Ex): At 17th level, the brave treats any fear effect as if it were two categories less than normal. For example, if the brave would normally be panicked, he is shaken instead. If the brave would normally be frightened or shaken, he is not affected by that fear effect.
Swift Strike (Ex): At 11th level, the brave can spend one of his Warpath power points as a swift action and make a single melee or ranged attack at his full attack bonus.