Hello all! I just wanted to share my idea I implemented in my last group and seemed to work well so i thought i would share it with the Pathfinder community for peer review. This alternate build helps address what has been brought up multiple times on the forum and might help some of you in your games, or be horribly flawed. Either way here goes...:
1. Get rid of SLA monster summoning.
2. Add "Summoning Specialist" (effectively a domain)
-Granted power: All Conjuration (Summoning) spells that have a casting time of 1 round will be cast as a standard action instead. (please note that the durations are not extended in this version)
Specialist (Domain) Spells: 1st - Summon monster I, 2nd - Summon monster II, 3rd Summon monster IV, 4th - Summon monster V, 5th - Summon Monster VII, 6th - Summon monster IX
-add one "specialist" Spell (domain spell)to the number of spells a summoner can cast per day, at each level that must be used to cast the Specialist spell of that level. This spell is not a spell-like ability and can be used in conjunction with the Eidolon and other Summon monster spells.
3. Summoners now automatically Know the above spells once they attain the level at which they can be cast.
4. Add Summon Natures ally (I, II, IV, V, VII and IX) into the respective Spell List parallel to the Summon monster line (but they are not automatically known).
5. We houseruled out the Eidolon disappearing when you sleep.
Anyways that it. Kinda simple really. Thoughts?
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Ummm... They're fine. My god, #2? You're takin one of the most powerful classes in the game and making them even more insane.
Also, the sleeping thing is a similar balance issue; summoners shouldn't get a free extra "watch".
Finally, the summon ally is just making them too diverse.
Again, you're taking a class that already has balance issues and making it silly :).
My god, #2? You're takin one of the most powerful classes in the game and making them even more insane.
In my game, the summoner (even with the alterations mentioned above) was not outshining any class. The only "spellcasting" class it has more spell levels able to be cast per day is the bard, all other far outshine it (including versatility in spell effects and higher DCs). They have about 40 spell levels per day less than a druid at 20th level and the druids animal companion has one more hit die on average at nearly every level up until that point. They also don't disappear when you fall asleep or worse yet are dropped in battle. Summoners also lack the innate ability to heal themselves... so it doesn't really matter how beefy their eidolon is, all a bad guy has to do is recognize it is a summoner (simple knowledge arcana check) and focus forward firepower on the summoner:). Also one of their main spells and the SLA can be easily thwarted by a 1st level spell that is common to any spellcasting class, even the 9th level variant of summon monster... My point being that i really don't agree they are already overpowered to begin with.
As for the "balance" issue with a free watch, well in my game when the summoner slept, so too did the eidolon, so again a relatively easy fix. That said, any class has access to a free "watch" so i don't really see the logic in this argument. A ranger, paladin and druid all have their animal companions, wizard and some sorcerers have their familiars, many spellcasting classes have alarm, hell 1st level commoners can buy guard dogs and 1st level PCs can hire the 1st level commoner lol.
They have about 40 spell levels per day less than a druid at 20th level and the druids animal companion has one more hit die on average at nearly every level up until that point.
Hehe i realized that my post was broken so i am going to try to restate what i said above. What i meant to say was that the animal companion has one more HD than the Eidolon and that it is the animal companion that does not disappear in a battle once a druid/ranger/paladin etc drops below 0 HPs.
Also one of their main spells and the SLA can be easily thwarted by a 1st level spell that is common to any spellcasting class, even the 9th level variant of summon monster...
What i was getting at here was the spell or equivalent of protection from good/evil/law/chaos, or circle of protection for that matter. Sorry for the messiness.
Hello all! I just wanted to share my idea I implemented in my last group and seemed to work well so i thought i would share it with the Pathfinder community for peer review. This alternate build helps address what has been brought up multiple times on the forum and might help some of you in your games, or be horribly flawed. Either way here goes...:
1. Get rid of SLA monster summoning.
2. Add "Summoning Specialist" (effectively a domain)
-Granted power: All Conjuration (Summoning) spells that have a casting time of 1 round will be cast as a standard action instead. (please note that the durations are not extended in this version)
Specialist (Domain) Spells: 1st - Summon monster I, 2nd - Summon monster II, 3rd Summon monster IV, 4th - Summon monster V, 5th - Summon Monster VII, 6th - Summon monster IX
-add one "specialist" Spell (domain spell)to the number of spells a summoner can cast per day, at each level that must be used to cast the Specialist spell of that level. This spell is not a spell-like ability and can be used in conjunction with the Eidolon and other Summon monster spells.
3. Summoners now automatically Know the above spells once they attain the level at which they can be cast.
4. Add Summon Natures ally (I, II, IV, V, VII and IX) into the respective Spell List parallel to the Summon monster line (but they are not automatically known).
5. We houseruled out the Eidolon disappearing when you sleep.Anyways that it. Kinda simple really. Thoughts?
The summoner is ok as is. I just got my butt kicked by one.
I do understand that not everyone has the same play style so the changes may work for your group.
When I first read the Summoner, I was quite disappointed and considered many of the same fixes you are suggesting. It took me a second read-through and some reflection before I grokked the Summoner. Here's what I realized that stopped me from trying to modify the class.
[list]
If you want to play what has traditionally been called a "summoner" in D&D, then make a Druid or Wizard(Conjuration), learn Augment Summoning, pick up a Metamagic Rod(Extend), and get ready to summon the hordes!
If you want to play a "Summoner" (the class) then dust off your d20 and get ready to make attack roles! Lots and lots of attack roles! I mean, "Buy a handful of color-coded d20s with matching color damage dice because it will take forever otherwise," number of attack roles!
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Actually for creature generators the Nature Oracle is the best summoner in the game now. Not only do they get an animal companion and summon monster access, they give the animals around them + Cha to save and can add their Cha to their AC, essentially letting them dump every stat except Con and Chr. After the "stupid" heavens oracle they are the most "silly" build of Oracle possible; not sure why they haven't had more buzz.
Summoners done rift have a pet that really does make the Druid companion look "awful". It's just the continual customization and raw # of attacks that make them so powerful. They also bring the party a better bard for buffing (2nd level haste? 3rd improved invis?), which makes me wonder what the bard point is (though some of the kits make them good scout/rogues or alt fighters).
So summoners aren't quite the monster generators; but specifically you REALLY don't need to own the door on standard-action summoning (free quicken?). It'll single-handidly overthrow your game, unless your players go out of their way not to powergame.
Fair enough.
Please let me just say a few things however. The first is that the idea behind this "fix" is that it is an option for those DMs, who (like me) do not necessarily think the SLA and eidolon relationship works for them, but do NOT want to simply allow both at the same time (that is wayyyyy broken). The SLA is borderline broken imo so many of us share similar feelings despite what you may think. The domain option still gives a bit of spellcasting specifically related to summoning but would not add nearly as much as the SLA. The advantage is that a player would be able to support both spell and eidolon at the same time, but would be in the confines of the spells normally cast by the summoner (i.e not able to cast cha +3 summon monster III at 5th level or summon monster V at 9th level). Further compromises are that their summon monster spells are standard actions. As for this being a "free quicken", well they already had that in their SLA. They are also very limited by spells per day so it is unlikely they will cast all summon spells as they have other (i would argue) essential spells that they should use. Also turning a full round action is not really what i would call "game breaking". all it would give the summoner in effect is one more move action (minus 5 feet). It did not overthrow our game but then again as wraithstrike said it might work for ours not others which is why i was floating the change to you all if you wanted to try it. Thanks for the input!
This feat makes Wizards the best summoners actually.
Source Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide 11You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st, cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school, Korvosa affinity.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.