arg... I am typing this again due to some posting error...
I am working out a way to increase the DC's of poison to make it usable at higher levels. This is what I am proposing:
Requirement: Master Craftsman Feat
Benefit: Can increase the DC's of a poison to 10 + ranks in craft alchemy.
for example, Drow Poison (DC 13) A player with 5 ranks in craft alchemy can increase the DC of drow poison to 15 (5 ranks + 10 minus 13 equals +2) with a successful DC 15 check (the roll needed to make a DC 15 poison).
This same character, however, could not increase any poison DC 15 or higher until his ranks (not bonuses) exceed the DC.
He would have to wait one more level to increase Insanity Mist (DC 15) to DC 16 and couldn't modify Deathblade (DC 20) until 11th level.
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I am not sure how this will scale, but it feels pretty good. I am hoping the geniuses here will help with it. I am also not sure how this would change prices, since they are already pretty high. I think I would just leave them the same, showing the advanced harvesting and reduction techniques to create a more powerful version (less waste).
Thoughts?
*snip*
Since the DC is based entirely on your ranks in the skill, and not ability score modifier and the like, this seems like a pretty solid way to go actually. Normally scaling at 1/level is a bad idea (since hardcore fortitude types like fighters only get +1 fort/2 levels), but when you count ability score modifiers and magic items, DC 30 is equivalent to a +10 key ability score at 20th level - and that's normal.
So I think your mechanics are on the way. I'm not sure why you'd need master craftsman though (that's for magic items). So you might want to just make it a stand-alone feat, or a feat that requires Craft (Alchemy) 5 ranks and Poison Use (maybe make poison use a feat as well).
To simplify it, you could simply say "When you create a poison with Craft (Alchemy), you may use the poison's normal save DC or 10 + your ranks in Craft (Alchemy), whichever is higher."
Given the time to craft poisons (except perhaps for alchemists), the cost of using poisons regularly, and all those things, I think it would be fair. The only thing I would be worried about is the fact some poisons like Drow Poison would be amazingly beastly like this. It's a fairly cheap poison (25 gp if you craft it yourself) and it affects a surprisingly large number of creatures. It basically would add a Save or Die onto any attack you armed with it.
But then, my players use drow poison for just that reason and fell stuff with the DC 13 SoD at the most surprising times. ^_^
The only reason I though to use the master craftsman feat was because it could duplicate magical item construction. Since the poison is stronger, I was thinking maybe the reason was magical in nature... But it doesn't have to be.
My player has the poisoner archetype; that alone could be enough.
Thanks for your input!
Another option that someone came up with is using the principles behind the alchemist discovery feat: Concentrate Poison
The sweet spot of characters falls in the 7-10 level range, that gives an average of +10 fort save for warriors (+7 from class, +3 from stat/magic items/feats) and lets say a +6 for others (same basic bonuses).
The price of a usable poison at that level (giant wasp DC 18) is.... wow, only 210 gp... Ok, that changes my thoughts a bit. I must have been looking at contact instead.
That breaks down as follows:
Wealth per encounter (per RAW) averages to 5,450 gp for 10th level at medium progression. To make a nasty poison (DC 22), you would need four doses of poison (still working with giant wasp and using 2 doses for each +2 increase - or better yet doubling the require dose for each 2 point increase), costing 840 gp and needing a craft alchemy roll of 24. However, this cost is misleading because purchasing something like this is a rare item, so the creation costs should be used instead.
Crafting time would be based on 8,400 sp/3= 2800
Average craft skill for a 10th level character should be at least +12, but probably closer to +15 with class abilities. That means a roll of 9 is needed to complete. Lets say the player rolls a 15, so if we use the crafting rules, the roll times the DC (if successful) represents how much work in SP is completed in a week. So for our example, 15 * 22 = 330 sp in a week. 2800/330 works out to be 8 weeks to make one dose. --- I think that is too long (a problem many people have complained about).
If we want a poison of 24... the cost should probably be 8 times, going on the assumptions of +2, +4, +8 and +16 costs for increasing increments.
What do you think of this?
I wonder if we can make crafting times quicker. the +5 DC to double the speed really doesn't work for alchemical items, although I could see if working for iron working. I wonder if we change the duration to hours instead of weeks. As long as the character is being responsible and not creating profit, it makes the item construction usable. It takes 8 hours to produce our 22 DC poison instead of 8 weeks. I kind of like that idea.
Of the two methods I have outlined, I am not sure which way is better. I like the limitations of the first method, which doesn't allow run away crafting.
I have yet to put this into full scale tests yet, so I am hoping this draws more interest on the boards.
You guys seem to be very good at identifying balance and abuse issues.