If an adventure has 2 monsters out of, say 2 dozen, that are stat blocks that aren't fully reprinted, and assuming no one has a copy of Bestiary 2...
...how tough would it be to print out the stats for those few monsters well before the game? I mean, even if no one in the group owns a printer, there are plenty of ways to print out content from the internet. If you're in a case where you truly have NO access to on-site internet and cannot print out anything in advance anywhere, I assume that doesn't stunt your gaming creativity. What's wrong with simply building replacement monsters on your own for those missing creatures, or using replacement monsters from other books you might have in your game collection?
1. The only place you can get things printed here is an office depo 30 miles from my house{ok 26.7}, who will not allow me to print from a book or PDF for fear of being sued.
2 Why should I have to finish an adventurer I paid money for? I can and do make my own things but if I am paying for an adventure to run I do expect it to be a finished adventure and I am sorry if you dislike it but to me it is utterly unfinished if I have to replace the battles to make it work.
3 New GM's for who AP's are a god send do not have enough experience to just "Fix it"
You guys wanted feedback and that is how I feel, I find putting out an incomplete product that forces people to either own the book or jump though hoops to use is a bad thing.
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...how tough would it be to print out the stats for those few monsters well before the game?
10 minutes with a pen and paper, anywhere with an internet connection (school, work, public library, coffee shop.....).
I'm pretty sure most FLGS owners wouldn't take much notice of you copying a stat block or two out in the shop now and again. Of course, if you manage to get the whole book that way, I'd say you deserve a free copy on general principle... :)
We do this already, on the credits page of every book. Incidentally, we also list all the other books you need on the same page.James if you guys do that route and honestly i think you should for a variety of reasons. That is to post little to no information in the AP's. Then I suggest you do add the URL to the PRD in each stat block saying the information can be found there. Just so someone doesn't read the adventure take their books to run a game and only then figure out the monster, class or what have you is not in the core books.
I think if you did that everyone should then read it and see in advance. Then they can go to the PRD web site and print out what they need.
I never knew that. I am sure there are others that don't know this also.
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1. The only place you can get things printed here is an office depo 30 miles from my house{ok 26.7}, who will not allow me to print from a book or PDF for fear of being sued.2 Why should I have to finish an adventurer I paid money for? I can and do make my own things but if I am paying for an adventure to run I do expect it to be a finished adventure and I am sorry if you dislike it but to me it is utterly unfinished if I have to replace the battles to make it work.
3 New GM's for who AP's are a god send do not have enough experience to just "Fix it"
You guys wanted feedback and that is how I feel, I find putting out an incomplete product that forces people to either own the book or jump though hoops to use is a bad thing.
or 4: You could just jot down the stat blocks onto some scrap paper when you're online looking at the forums.
or 4: You could just jot down the stat blocks onto some scrap paper when you're online looking at the forums.2 Why should I have to finish an adventurer I paid money for? I can and do make my own things but if I am paying for an adventure to run I do expect it to be a finished adventure and I am sorry if you dislike it but to me it is utterly unfinished if I have to replace the battles to make it work.
See point 2 above.
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I never knew that. I am sure there are others that don't know this also.We do this already, on the credits page of every book. Incidentally, we also list all the other books you need on the same page.James if you guys do that route and honestly i think you should for a variety of reasons. That is to post little to no information in the AP's. Then I suggest you do add the URL to the PRD in each stat block saying the information can be found there. Just so someone doesn't read the adventure take their books to run a game and only then figure out the monster, class or what have you is not in the core books.
I think if you did that everyone should then read it and see in advance. Then they can go to the PRD web site and print out what they need.
Which kinda makes my point and why I posted what I did in my previous post. Posting a line on where to find the mob and possible a line for a alternative monster yes would eat up space but not nearly as much as full stat blocks etc do, yet I think it would help make those who don't own other said books less unhappy. A compromise if you will.
I don't mind stat blocks from core monsters not being there, but stat blocks from any extra books should be there. It is not a hassle for me, but in theory I should not have to drive around town trying to find a printer or make my own monster.
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I look at it like this:
We have internet at the house where the games are hosted.
Our usual DM has an iPhone with PDFs of the books on it and internet on it if he doesn't.
His wife also has an iPhone with internet.
Another of our players has an iPhone with internet.
I have the PDFs on my Kindle.
Another of our players has the PDFs on his Kindle.
My DM has the PDFs on his laptop.
I have the PDFs on my laptop.
He has most of the books.
I have most of the books.
I have two desktop computers and a printer in addition to the laptop I mentioned before.
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All of this adds up to likely having the references we need whenever we need them. Also, if we know we're going to be somewhere without internet and need something for the adventure that we can get online, we're willing to take the initiative and grab whatever we need beforehand.
Saying that these AP books are going to be "completely useless" is hyperbole. A DM usually has to come up with little things on the fly for his party. If someone spilled paint on one of the pages and obscured a full stat block, then he'd still have to improvise or if the players randomly decided to do some thieving that wasn't mentioned in the actual AP, that might require other NPCs that they run into.
Honestly, I think it will end up being fine. My issue with not having the stat blocks in there is purely one of convenience and has nothing to do with if I'll have the reference or not. Books are heavy after all.
[Edit: two typos]
See point 2 above.or 4: You could just jot down the stat blocks onto some scrap paper when you're online looking at the forums.2 Why should I have to finish an adventurer I paid money for? I can and do make my own things but if I am paying for an adventure to run I do expect it to be a finished adventure and I am sorry if you dislike it but to me it is utterly unfinished if I have to replace the battles to make it work.
Psst, the adventures use material from the PFRPG and Bestiary 1. They're incomplete by default.
Of course, you will reply with the "yeah but its core, and APG and B2 are not core" argument, but hey, 3.5 is over, Core is dead, the rules are free. Your argument would stand if the non-core material would be closed content, "forcing" you to shell out money for it, but now it's moot.
I think the issue is that he does not want to have to pay extra money for printing, gas to get to a printer, and so on for what should be in the book.
I think the issue is that he does not want to have to pay extra money for printing, gas to get to a printer, and so on for what should be in the book.
What I feel like is missed by some people here (not specifically WS) is that page count for a given price is finite, and thus it isn't a choice between rules content reprint and no rules content reprint, but rather between rules content reprint OR more adventure content.
I don't love printing or carrying an extra book, but given the choice I'll pick more adventure content.
(Or, alternately, it's a choice of greater variety in adventure content with APG etc. stuff, or not. I pick the variety there too.)
Had another thought I wish to share:
I kind of see it along the same lines as when a player brings a wizard to the table and wants to summon -- but doesn't have the monster states with him -- or wants to cast another spell -- but isn't sure of its effects, doesn't have his spell list ready, hasn't considered his familiar's stats even though he uses it in combat all the time, and can remember what his DC for the spell he is casting.
In short the GM has to be prepared -- part of being prepared is knowing what monsters are there and where to find them, having them ready if they come up in the adventure -- just like the summoner player shouldn't slow things down and waste everyone's time with "where is that monster, oh wait I wanted to summon that one instead -- hold on, can I borrow your book?" The GM should make sure he understands what the party might be facing and change parts if need be (either because he doesn't like them, or because he doesn't have access to something for whatever reason).
Yes the APs should make it easier to run the game -- but if you aren't adjusting stuff as you go, and reading ahead as a GM then what are you doing? Just like the players prepare before the game so does the GM -- it's irresponsible to think that just because you are running an AP everything will be given to you at the start.
The APs do make things much easier -- but as with any premade adventure somethings must be changed up for your group or preferences -- so expecting some of this with an AP is just smart.
I think all this discussion of who has Internet access, who has a printer, etc., misses the point.
As stated in the forward to D&D 2E, at some point it becomes "physically and intellectually unwieldy" to participate in a game as more and more required material is added. Personally, I really enjoyed the fact that the core rules and bestiary comprised the complete Pathfinder rule set. Optional rules didn't bother me, as long as they remained optional. That's a preference. When they become must-have to use adventure material? Well, that's bloat. The majority may prefer things that way (I suspect they do), and that's fine, but can we please stop painting each other as unreasonable?
I also don't buy the idea that storytelling is limited by the material in the core. That is like saying you can only write so many novels at a particular desk.
I personally have no problem with seeing abbreviated stats and page references to non-core material such as the APG or GMG in adventure paths. If I'm using AP material, the chances are good that I've spent a lot of time reading and prepping beforehand to make sure that I know the plot and am familiar with the game elements therein. I also need that time to ensure that the content is to my players' liking and adjust it as needed to get the right mix for my table.
Given that, I will always make the time to print out what I need beforehand, either from a .pdf or one of the SRDs. Such a decision won't impact my use of the products, and if it allows the developers to get more content in, then so much the better.
However, I have to say that responses from certain individuals in this thread really disappointed me - some of them developers and designers that I really respect and whose work I admire (and buy, incidentally). James asked for input from the peanut gallery on this topic, and got it - perhaps not in the most diplomatic fashion from some people, but he did ask for the feedback.
To call people whiners for giving an honest (and openly solicited) opinion strikes me as a little off-putting. Just sayin'.
I am on the fence on whether I would like to have Bestiary 2 monsters in the AP or not. On the one hand there are some cool ones to use, on the other hand it is another book I have to carry when I game aware from home (and another one I can forget). I do disapprove of the attacks in this thread directed at people for their opinions.
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The question I'm the most curious is that, given that APG and the other non-core books are all open content and will be on our own PRD as well as on numerous fan sites...
...how would folks feel if we did put things from the APG and Bestiary 2 and other rulebooks we've published into our adventures without reprinting all the relevant rules? The thing is that, with space at a premium, we're far LESS likely to use material from APG and other books if the perception is that we need to reprint everything.
With Carrion Crown, we'll be presenting short stat blocks for the Bestiary 2 monsters we use, and while we'll print full stat blocks for non-core base classes (because we ALWAYS do full stat blocks for classed NPCs, core or not), we're not going to give full reprints for feats, spells, magic items, and the like that show up in an adventure.
I'm eager to see how folks respond to that. If the rules weren't open content, we'd never do this, but with them being open content and effectively free to access on the internet... does that make it okay to not do full reprints of things like bunyips and witch hexes and sylph inquisitors?
And while it's great to get feedback from folks before the fact... not everyone who reads, say, Carrion Crown will see this (or similar) posts... so it'll probably be until we get into that AP's publication before we start hearing all the feedback. Here's hoping folks are mostly cool with the tradeoff of less reprinted material and more non-core support in adventures!
I'm for it. Until just now I had no idea that the B2 and APG stuff was going to be open content. I guess I just don't follow things that closely. IMO it's not terribly difficult for people to get the relevant info online, even if they personally have no internet access at home. There are so many alternatives that it's practically a non-issue, so long as they know it's available and where to find it.
I'm mostly in favor because constantly reprinting statblocks is somewhat redundant, and more importantly the space could be used for extra new content. Unless there was some compelling thematic reason for the monster or class's inclusion, I imagine that a resourceful GM could, in a pinch, substitute a similar monster/class without much difficulty.
Anyway, that's my 2cp.
Creative Director
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I think all this discussion of who has Internet access, who has a printer, etc., misses the point.
As stated in the forward to D&D 2E, at some point it becomes "physically and intellectually unwieldy" to participate in a game as more and more required material is added. Personally, I really enjoyed the fact that the core rules and bestiary comprised the complete Pathfinder rule set. Optional rules didn't bother me, as long as they remained optional. That's a preference. When they become must-have to use adventure material? Well, that's bloat. The majority may prefer things that way (I suspect they do), and that's fine, but can we please stop painting each other as unreasonable?
I also don't buy the idea that storytelling is limited by the material in the core. That is like saying you can only write so many novels at a particular desk.
The worry that eventually there'll be too many books to lug to the game and back is a legitimate concern. So far, in order to run Carrion Crown, if you use print books for your game and not electronic books, you'll likely need to haul along the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and the Bestiary 2. The other rulebooks will certainly help here and there, but they're hardly "load bearing" books in the same way those three I mention above are. Personally, I don't think that those three books are too much, but they might be. And if they're not... what IS the limit? Just one more thing for us to think about whether or not we end up sticking with this format for stat blocks.
As for storytelling being limited by material in the core... your analogy is false. A novel writer doesn't need anything more than a paper and a writing utensil and his/her imagination to create a novel. For game design, though, you need rules. I can include an encounter with a never-before mentioned monster like a silvertongue skark in a novel with just that writing utensil and a piece of paper, but to include that same monster in an adventure, I need rules. And if there's not rules for the silvertongue skark in the core... I need to either get them from another book or I need to make them up on the spot.
Novel writing and game writing are NOT identical, in other words, so comparisons between the two don't always work.
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I mentioned up-thread that a Replacement line seems completely reasonable, just in case one doesn't have a lot of resources. Also it gives the GM something else that's important: Options.
I say go the Bestiary 2 short stat-blocks and throw in the replacement line. It's not a perfect solution, but you can't make all the people happy all of the time.
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Creative Director
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To call people whiners for giving an honest (and openly solicited) opinion strikes me as a little off-putting. Just sayin'.
I'm not sure who you're talking about, but I don't believe I ever called anyone a whiner. If I did, I shouldn't have, and I apologize.
I did indeed ask for opinions on this matter, and I value ALL of the feedback and opinions you all are giving me with the EXCEPTION of the posts that are antagonistic to other posters. I can do without those.
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Core is an outdated concept. It made sense back when Core was open, and the rest was not. Nowadays it only makes sense in PFS, but we're out of PFS territory in this thread.Outdated TO YOU.
You can't accept that people can disagree with you without just being wrong, can you? :/
Bugley, given your reputation are you really sure you want to go down that route? ;-)
My opinion, expressed earlier, is that they should include the GMG, APG Bestiary 2 and up in the APs. How they do that is up to Paizo, but given the PRD makes access to the information fairly easy, I'm not sure it's going to be as bad as you and seeker are saying it will. As an asidem, I print out monster stats already so I don't have to look them up during play, so this makes absolutely zero difference to my game. Yuors may be different, but that doesn't make my game wrong anymore than you being different from gorbacz makes your game wrong. And soem of seeker's posts are bordering on overblown hyperbole, which is not a productive way to get a point across.
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The point is that the preference for material supporting a core-only game isn't irrational whining...it's simply a different preference.
I'm perfectly fine with personal preference, but I'm against gross hyperbole that some other posters were using.
I have access to all of the books and so much internet that I'm swimming in it (that's not hyperbole, we have a small internet swimming pool in the backyard during the summer, but it ices over during the cold months).
All that being said, I'd still prefer to have the full stat blocks in the AP books for convenience.
I mentioned up-thread that a Replacement line seems completely reasonable, just in case one doesn't have a lot of resources. Also it gives the GM something else that's important: Options.
I say go the Bestiary 2 short stat-blocks and throw in the replacement line. It's not a perfect solution, but you can't make all the people happy all of the time.
Good point. I remember a few WoTC adventures with a monster/spell/etc from a splat book. There was also a line that said if you don't have access to X use Y from the _____ book.
The worry that eventually there'll be too many books to lug to the game and back is a legitimate concern.
Thanks for acknowledging that. I'm glad you guys are thinking about it.
As for storytelling being limited by material in the core... your analogy is false. A novel writer doesn't need anything more than a paper and a writing utensil and his/her imagination to create a novel. For game design, though, you need rules. I can include an encounter with a never-before mentioned monster like a silvertongue skark in a novel with just that writing utensil and a piece of paper, but to include that same monster in an adventure, I need rules. And if there's not rules for the silvertongue skark in the core... I need to either get them from another book or I need to make them up on the spot.Novel writing and game writing are NOT identical, in other words, so comparisons between the two don't always work.
Good point. I stand corrected.
Bugley, given your reputation are you really sure you want to go down that route? ;-)
Paul, I don't really care about my reputation. Some things are a matter of fact. However, "how many books is too many in an RPG" isn't one of those things.
I don't mean to be testy, but I'm getting tired of being told my subjective opinion is objectively stupid.
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Bugley, given your reputation are you really sure you want to go down that route? ;-)Paul, I don't really care about my reputation. Some things are a matter of fact. However, "how many books is too many in an RPG" isn't one of those things.
I don't mean to be testy, but I'm getting tired of being told my subjective opinion is objectively stupid.
This is true. I was attempting to introduce levity to decrease the amount of tinder rather than add fuel to the fire. My apologies if I added to the pile.
This is true. I was attempting to introduce levity to decrease the amount of tinder rather than add fuel to the fire. My apologies if I added to the pile.
No apology needed -- I'm definitely being testy.
Things just seem to have gotten strangely unfriendly of late for anyone expressing an opinion considered even remotely anti-Paizo. Creating an environment where dissent is squelched isn't in anyone's best interest -- least of all Paizo's.
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The worry that eventually there'll be too many books to lug to the game and back is a legitimate concern. So far, in order to run Carrion Crown, if you use print books for your game and not electronic books, you'll likely need to haul along the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and the Bestiary 2. The other rulebooks will certainly help here and there, but they're hardly "load bearing" books in the same way those three I mention above are. Personally, I don't think that those three books are too much, but they might be. And if they're not... what IS the limit? Just one more thing for us to think about whether or not we end up sticking with this format for stat blocks.
I would say as long as you post where thing X is from, book and page number and the URL to the PRD, give a line for a alternate monster. (yeah i know I already said this and this a more lines but less that a full stat block) then made sure the PRD was up to date and easy to print from. I think you shouldnt have to worry about it. I mean then people can use the alternative monsters or go online and print what they need. They have a choice then.
To me that is a win for everyone honestly. It lets Paizo write how it wants and encourage sales of other books. It lets those of us that want to see the new stuff used to get it used. It lets those with out the new books but internet to know where to go get the information and finally it lets those lacking both the books and internet have a alternate option to use from the core books and still run things just fine. (by core I mean the RPG rules and bestiary 1)
*shrug* anyway to me that seems the best answer over all that is a bit of a compromise to giver everyone a little something of what they want, but also everyone is giving up a little too.
Creating an environment where dissent is squelched isn't in anyone's best interest -- least of all Paizo's.
Agreed...but as some of my duties include messageboard moderation, I would ask that people consider the manner and tone of their disagreements. :P
Agreed...but as some of my duties include messageboard moderation, I would ask that people consider the manner and tone of their disagreements. :P
Understood. I'm sorry if I went too far.
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Creative Director
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I am on the fence on whether I would like to have Bestiary 2 monsters in the AP or not. On the one hand there are some cool ones to use, on the other hand it is another book I have to carry when I game aware from home (and another one I can forget). I do disapprove of the attacks in this thread directed at people for their opinions.
Whether or not we're going to use Bestiary 2 monsters in the APs isn't the question. We WILL use Bestiary 2 monsters in the APs, no matter what. That's actually part of the reason we made Bestiary 2 in the first place, so we'd have more monsters to play with.
The question is whether or not we reprint full stat blocks for Bestiary 2 in the text of the adventure. Just looking at the majority of the responses to this thread confirms my gut reaction that it's not something that'll be universally popular, but folks haven't actually seen how it plays out really in Carrion Crown #1 yet so I also get the feeling that there's a fair bit of over-reaction based on incorrect assumptions as well.
In any case, my theory is to let folks know about changes like these before hand as possible... it's never too early to start gathering feedback!
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Creative Director
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This is true. I was attempting to introduce levity to decrease the amount of tinder rather than add fuel to the fire. My apologies if I added to the pile.No apology needed -- I'm definitely being testy.
Things just seem to have gotten strangely unfriendly of late for anyone expressing an opinion considered even remotely anti-Paizo. Creating an environment where dissent is squelched isn't in anyone's best interest -- least of all Paizo's.
And That's certainly not an environment we're trying to foster. But the simple fact is that Pathfinder's popularity is continuing to grow at an explosive rate, and that means that more and more folks are going to be coming to these boards, and that means growing pains. Which means it's more important than EVER that those of us who are established presences on these boards, be we Paizo employees or Paizo fans or Paizo curious, bring an extra load of patience and zen to the boards.
I get testy too. The best solution I've found is that when you write a post that's overly snarky or aggressive to NOT hit "Submit Post" but to delete it and walk away from the boards for a while. One can't easily win an internet argument, but one CAN easily make them worse. In my experience, it's better to take one of those time outs and come back later with a clearer head. It's certainly saved ME from posting some posts that probably would have gotten me called up to Lisa's office for a chat.
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I am on the fence on whether I would like to have Bestiary 2 monsters in the AP or not. On the one hand there are some cool ones to use, on the other hand it is another book I have to carry when I game aware from home (and another one I can forget). I do disapprove of the attacks in this thread directed at people for their opinions.Whether or not we're going to use Bestiary 2 monsters in the APs isn't the question. We WILL use Bestiary 2 monsters in the APs, no matter what. That's actually part of the reason we made Bestiary 2 in the first place, so we'd have more monsters to play with.
The question is whether or not we reprint full stat blocks for Bestiary 2 in the text of the adventure. Just looking at the majority of the responses to this thread confirms my gut reaction that it's not something that'll be universally popular, but folks haven't actually seen how it plays out really in Carrion Crown #1 yet so I also get the feeling that there's a fair bit of over-reaction based on incorrect assumptions as well.
In any case, my theory is to let folks know about changes like these before hand as possible... it's never too early to start gathering feedback!
Yeah, if something goes south we will let you know, like we did with the thrice-damned Set Pieces ! :)
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Creative Director
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I would say as long as you post where thing X is from, book and page number and the URL to the PRD, give a line for a alternate monster. (yeah i know I already said this and this a more lines but less that a full stat block) then made sure the PRD was up to date and easy to print from.
I'm not sure putting URLs into stat blocks is a good idea, actually. URLS tend to look pretty complex, with lots of abbreviations and weird symbols—I'd be afraid that'd make a stat block look overly complicated and distracting.
XP 4,800
hp 105 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 34; http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/behir.html#behir)
Yeah... this looks kinda ugly... and it would pretty much enlarge every single stat block in the book, long or short, by 1 line. Which by the end of a typical adventure would probably add up to about xxx lines of text—that's about xxx a page.
Adding a URL to the stat block for reference is an interesting idea, but not one that's really feasible, as a result. Especially since it's faster to just search for the word "behir" at paizo.com than it is to type out that whole complicated URL in the first place.
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Yeah, if something goes south we will let you know, like we did with the thrice-damned Set Pieces ! :)
I'd like also to point out that some folks really loved the set pieces. So there's a pretty good chance that this whole thing's a tempest in a teapot and that not reprinting Bestiary 2 monsters isn't going to be a big deal at all.
We'll know for sure, I suspect, in about 3 to 4 months once Carrion Crown's well underway. Which, incidentally, is plenty of time for us to make an educated and informed decision on how to handle the situation for Jade Regent.
I would also like to say that the rulebooks being $10 in PDF was freaking brilliant. For rules much more than adventures, a PDF is a supplement to hardcopy. It's really nice to see them priced like one (and I'm sure the resulting positive externalities don't hurt, either).
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I would also like to say that the rulebooks being $10 in PDF was freaking brilliant. For rules much more than adventures, a PDF is a supplement to hardcopy. It's really nice to see them priced like one (and I'm sure the resulting positive externalities don't hurt, either).
Yeah, a PDF of the rules for a little more I spend on a trip to Starbucks. Pure genius.
This may seem like an odd suggestion:
As a compromise on this issue would a DM's Guide pdf at the end of an AP's release run (much as the player's guide at the start) containing full stat block for the "non-core" items from the AP, solve the problem? I don't know if that would even be feasable but it might be an idea worth discussing.