I'm probably going to be running a game next year where the setting is a VERY young world with a 'dawn of history' feel to it. Because advancing mundane and magical technology is going to be very central to the campaign, I'd like to pick the brains of some of our illustrious posters here.
The big question I'm working on initially is where to set DC's. I'm working backwards from what level I want the 'obsessed' to have a chance at doing something and what level I want more normal specs to have a shot. The big thing I want to avoid is having forgotten something that makes my carefully set DC's obsolete or trivial.
This setting would initially be an incredibly low magic setting---so low, in fact, that no magic items at all are initially available to anyone. In fact, nobody would be able to start as any class that could cast spells or had magical abilities at all. Instead, taking levels in various classes will only become possible if someone has discovered all the necessary secrets and is willing to teach them to you (or if you yourself have made said discoveries).
So we don't have to worry about any spells giving plusses, or lore abilities, or the like.
As I see it, a Level 1 could conceivably have +5 from a stat, +1 from a trait, and +3 from skill focus. Add that to +1 for a rank and +3 from it being a 'class skill' and you might be talking as high as +13. This means they could hit a DC33 on a hardcore research effort (read, keep rolling/researching until you've rolled a 20). A Level 3 could hit 35. Level 8 could hit 41 (2 level gain stat adds +5 more ranks). Level 10 could hit 46 (+3 for skill focus at 10 ranks, 2 more ranks). Level 14 could hit 50, and Level 16 could hit 53.
Am I forgetting anything? Since the magic classes are out, the only way to get class skill on a lot of the knowledges is to use a trait, unless you're willing to be an expert.
Less obsessed characters might have 4 from stat, no trait or skill focus so +8 at most at level 1, with perhaps +19 or so at level 10 and +24 at L15
So I'm thinking the thing to do is to start the Invention DC's out around 35 for the 'easy' stuff. These are the DC's for inventing something when your character doesn't even know that they are possible. DC's would be 5 lower if you knew it could be done (e.g., word has reached you that someone else has made a discovery in this area, but you have no other information on it). They'd be 10 lower if you're 'rediscovering' something where you at least have some vague hints and legends to go off of. They'd be 15 lower if your culture knows about them but you've not got anyone willing to teach you, and 20 lower if they're totally ubiquitous in your culture. If you've got someone to teach you or a manual to work from, you don't even need to 'reinvent the wheel' at all---that's why Wizards in most games don't necessarily even need Knowledge: Arcana necessarily to cast spells. Wizards that suddenly find themselves in a reality where magic still works, but according to different theories, on the other hand, might wish they'd maxed their ranks out :-)
So, let's start out with bootstrapping a wizard:
For this you need Knowledge:Arcana and Spellcraft (in general, you need a knowledge---the theoretical portion, and a craft or profession skill---the 'engineering' portion to make something happen---you can in cases approved by the GM have someone working with you to assist you to supply the other skill, but the use of 'aid another' is going to be very limited in most cases).
DC20: You determine that magic (i.e., the bending of Reality to the Will) is possible. This is a very basic realization that anyone who seriously studies their world (i.e., takes at least one rank) should be able to discover
DC25: A very crude magical theory that fits most of the observed supernatural datapoints in your world. Not good enough to research even a 0 level spell, but roughly approximating what peasants in a low-medium magic world know. Includes the knowledge that it is in principle possible to attach magic to objects.
DC30: So close...at this point you've got a very good magical theory, frankly a much better one than most magi in high magic worlds, but you still have no ability to consciously draw magic as yet. You can, however, take talents like 'minor magic' as a rogue, or feat based access to a single level-0 spell. You can take levels of wizard if you like, although you'll not have any spells or familiar as yet.
DC35: Here you have a magical theory that is better than that of most archmagi in higher magic worlds. Only a few loremaster mages or bards would likely have better, and few of them. Make this DC first and you are the 'First One'...the first Wizard. You won't have any sort of familiar or arcane bond though--that goes under Knowledge:Nature/Handle Animal or even higher on this track if you're going for a focus item. You can research level 1 and level 2 spells. You get nothing for free.
DC40: You can research level 3-5 spells. You can take magic item crafting feats and you can do an arcane bond. Future wizards will speak of your name in hushed tones of reverence if you're the first to hit this level
DC45: You can research level 6-8 spells. You can specialize in a school of magic. You can take metamagic feats. Latter day magi speak of you in tones of awe if you are the first.
DC50: You can research level 9 spells. Your name is synonymous with Magic in your world if you're the first to reach this level. Even a pit fiend, solar,ancient gold dragon or balor has a lot of trouble at this DC---and they are frequently the ones who taught magic to mortals in many worlds.
You're missing a very basic point of logic. You're trying to take a quasi-scientific approach to the development of magical abilities, but you've missed the part of science where you need repeatable results...which would, in fact, be spells. It would, in this paradigm, be utterly impossible to have "a better understanding of magical theory than most archmages" without having a broad spectrum of potential spell effects you can create with some level of reliability.
It sounds like you may want to wait for the Words of Power playtest in a week or two and see if that suits you better than Vancian magic.
Chris Kenney wrote: You're missing a very basic point of logic. You're trying to take a quasi-scientific approach to the development of magical abilities, but you've missed the part of science where you need repeatable results...which would, in fact, be spells. It would, in this paradigm, be utterly impossible to have "a better understanding of magical theory than most archmages" without having a broad spectrum of potential spell effects you can create with some level of reliability.
It sounds like you may want to wait for the Words of Power playtest in a week or two and see if that suits you better than Vancian magic.
Well, remember in a Vancian system (like 1st edition), you probably didn't invent any of the spells---somebody with a LOT more understanding of the guts behind the spell did. Lots of engineers can do calculus, but very few could invent it. The point I'm making is that most casters in normal high-magic settings really have not a whole lot of understanding regarding why their magic actually works. An awful lot of them haven't even ever researched an original spell, much less a magical theory. Someone who could actually INVENT the mortal practice of arcane magic would thereby be said to have a better understanding of the theory---even if he couldn't cast as high as level of spells yet.
In terms of the repeatable results at the low levels, you're talking about things that are lower than a level-0 spell (frankly, tons of people in the real world would kill for a lot of those). Very, very minor probability manipulations like influencing the patterns of soap bubbles or cherry blossoms...ridiculously small telekinesis on the order of a gram or two...and so forth.
EWHM wrote: DC35: Here you have a magical theory that is better than that of most archmagi in higher magic worlds. Only a few loremaster mages or bards would likely have better, and few of them. Make this DC first and you are the 'First One'...the first Wizard. The problem here is that archmagi on other worlds will be able to trash Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks of 35 while taking 10.
Also, you've proved that a level 3 character could: "have a magical theory that is better than that of most archmagi in higher magic worlds."
The major thing here though is... won't your players have more fun running around being awesome rogues, barbarians, fighters etc. than they will sitting in a library?
And if only one player takes this route then they'll be behind all of their fellows.
Also, the second generation of wizards coming up after him will soon outclass him (both because this always happens and because he has *wasted* ranks in Expert or Rogue before being allowed to be a wizard).
It's a neat idea but I'm not sure that knowledge checks and the DC system are the way to do it.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Decide how magic works in your world (is it like the weave from FR? Is it some kind of potential energy? Is it a product of the creation of the universe? Is it exuded into the universe by extra-planar beings so powerful that they don't even notice world shaking energies slipping away?)
2. Decide what forces are promoting the development of magical understanding (are they the pressures for innovation, such as over-population, that drove some major changes in our world? Is a mysterious force influencing people for its own ends? Has an exiled god of magic arrived upon this plane of reality? Has the build up of magical energies in the world slowly built up to a critical mass where it is now potent enough to be used and/or self-sustaining?
3. Decide what exciting adventures your PCs can have in order to learn the secrets of magic: will they seek out the ravings of madmen who have glimpsed beyond the veil? Will they discover rare ores? Or seek out rare and magical creatures? Will they rescue great craftsmen so that they can create delicate astronomical devices?
4. Plan things to keep your non-wizards entertained and stop them from simply being the wizard's guards.
5. Plan for an adventure beyond level 20 so that your wizard can eventually have the satisfaction of using time-stop and wish despite having those early 'wasted' levels.
EWHM wrote: Chris Kenney wrote: You're missing a very basic point of logic. You're trying to take a quasi-scientific approach to the development of magical abilities, but you've missed the part of science where you need repeatable results...which would, in fact, be spells. It would, in this paradigm, be utterly impossible to have "a better understanding of magical theory than most archmages" without having a broad spectrum of potential spell effects you can create with some level of reliability.
It sounds like you may want to wait for the Words of Power playtest in a week or two and see if that suits you better than Vancian magic.
Well, remember in a Vancian system (like 1st edition), you probably didn't invent any of the spells---somebody with a LOT more understanding of the guts behind the spell did. Lots of engineers can do calculus, but very few could invent it. The point I'm making is that most casters in normal high-magic settings really have not a whole lot of understanding regarding why their magic actually works. An awful lot of them haven't even ever researched an original spell, much less a magical theory. Someone who could actually INVENT the mortal practice of arcane magic would thereby be said to have a better understanding of the theory---even if he couldn't cast as high as level of spells yet.
In terms of the repeatable results at the low levels, you're talking about things that are lower than a level-0 spell (frankly, tons of people in the real world would kill for a lot of those). Very, very minor probability manipulations like influencing the patterns of soap bubbles or cherry blossoms...ridiculously small telekinesis on the order of a gram or two...and so forth. This is pretty much absolute nonsense. There is no theory without a decent ability to test it empircally. If he knows enough about magic to beat an archmage in a debate, by definition he has enough theoretical knowledge to construct high level spells. If he can't, he doesn't have a theory - at best, he has a hypothesis, and no idea if he's right. For all he (or anyone else) knows, he's just nuts.
That's not to say he'll have the ability to use the highest level abilities on demand, but he'll sure as heck be able to do them. That's why I suggested the possibility of Words of Power - it's probably possible to tweak it to allow impressive results with lots of invested time, where the Vancian system compartmentalizes spells into neat little packages. The ability to stop time for 30 seconds is a lot less impressive if you need two months to set it up and can only do it during a two-minute window.
Chris Kenney wrote: EWHM wrote: Chris Kenney wrote: You're missing a very basic point of logic. You're trying to take a quasi-scientific approach to the development of magical abilities, but you've missed the part of science where you need repeatable results...which would, in fact, be spells. It would, in this paradigm, be utterly impossible to have "a better understanding of magical theory than most archmages" without having a broad spectrum of potential spell effects you can create with some level of reliability.
It sounds like you may want to wait for the Words of Power playtest in a week or two and see if that suits you better than Vancian magic.
Well, remember in a Vancian system (like 1st edition), you probably didn't invent any of the spells---somebody with a LOT more understanding of the guts behind the spell did. Lots of engineers can do calculus, but very few could invent it. The point I'm making is that most casters in normal high-magic settings really have not a whole lot of understanding regarding why their magic actually works. An awful lot of them haven't even ever researched an original spell, much less a magical theory. Someone who could actually INVENT the mortal practice of arcane magic would thereby be said to have a better understanding of the theory---even if he couldn't cast as high as level of spells yet.
In terms of the repeatable results at the low levels, you're talking about things that are lower than a level-0 spell (frankly, tons of people in the real world would kill for a lot of those). Very, very minor probability manipulations like influencing the patterns of soap bubbles or cherry blossoms...ridiculously small telekinesis on the order of a gram or two...and so forth. This is pretty much absolute nonsense. There is no theory without a decent ability to test it empircally. If he knows enough about magic to beat an archmage in a debate, by definition he has enough theoretical knowledge to construct high level spells. If he... Chris,
The average mage doesn't max out all his knowledge skills, and many have never even researched a new spell. Still more have researched a spell, but it's been not a terribly original spell---almost what would be viewed as a minor change to an existing one---a magical cut&paste job, as it were. Tons of people in the real world can do stuff, even at a very high level of proficiency, without having any real grasp of the theory underpinning it. Such a proto-caster who derived the practice of wizardry through painstaking experiments with sub-zero level magic, supernatural & natural observation, and 'guess & check' methods would probably have a better knowledge of magic theory than most archmages (excepting the ones who had tons of spells named after them, who probably DID have the levels of research obsession that a 'First Mage' necessarily had). Notice the average levels of spellcraft and particularly Knowledge:arcane of the average character or highly magical monster (like solar, balor, pit fiend, or ancient gold dragon). The average character has never done enough serious research on anything to have effectively 'taken 20' on their basic knowledge of magical theory---and a lot of high level mages don't bother with more than a +25 add in knowledge:arcane (enough to give them 35 DC on a take 10).
GeraintElberion wrote: EWHM wrote: DC35: Here you have a magical theory that is better than that of most archmagi in higher magic worlds. Only a few loremaster mages or bards would likely have better, and few of them. Make this DC first and you are the 'First One'...the first Wizard. The problem here is that archmagi on other worlds will be able to trash Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks of 35 while taking 10.
Also, you've proved that a level 3 character could: "have a magical theory that is better than that of most archmagi in higher magic worlds."
The major thing here though is... won't your players have more fun running around being awesome rogues, barbarians, fighters etc. than they will sitting in a library?
And if only one player takes this route then they'll be behind all of their fellows.
Also, the second generation of wizards coming up after him will soon outclass him (both because this always happens and because he has *wasted* ranks in Expert or Rogue before being allowed to be a wizard).
It's a neat idea but I'm not sure that knowledge checks and the DC system are the way to do it.
Here are my suggestions:
1. Decide how magic works in your world (is it like the weave from FR? Is it some kind of potential energy? Is it a product of the creation of the universe? Is it exuded into the universe by extra-planar beings so powerful that they don't even notice world shaking energies slipping away?)
2. Decide what forces are promoting the development of magical understanding (are they the pressures for innovation, such as over-population, that drove some major changes in our world? Is a mysterious force influencing people for its own ends? Has an exiled god of magic arrived upon this plane of reality? Has the build up of magical energies in the world slowly built up to a critical mass where it is now potent enough to be used and/or self-sustaining?
3. Decide what exciting adventures your PCs can have in order to learn the secrets of magic: will they seek out the ravings of madmen who have... A research focused but not obsessed (i.e., good stat and maxed ranks) archmage could reinvent wizardry. That's working as intended. That sets up a possible idea for an adventure---experienced mage from another reality is thrown into another and has to tweak his magic to work properly in this new world.
What you've described is actually what I'm hoping for (the 'First Mage' being eventually outclassed by the 2nd and later generations of mage). My guess is that a PC planning to be a wizard probably will start as a rogue with traits giving him the needed skills as class skills. So his destiny is probably to be an arcane trickster or the like. In this setting, discovery and invention are going to be big themes, so a lot of adventures might be along the lines of that (for instance, you might want to observe a total eclipse for reasons of gaining magical knowledge, the Sun has always been associated with magic, or you might need to seek out a cave with a vent emanating mind-altering vapors...or the like). Certainly I'd be amenable to giving bonuses on the check based on adventuring, but I do want any such 'First mages' or 'First priests' to have at least a few suboptimal levels.
So what's everyone else doing while your proto-casters are inventing magic as we know it? Do warrior types need to invent the longbow? Do sneaky types need to invent lockpicks? Are they discovering feats, such as Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Dodge?
What's the ecology like? Are there magical monsters? What about outsiders?
What about the gods? Are there any? Do they interact with mortals?
Lathiira wrote: So what's everyone else doing while your proto-casters are inventing magic as we know it? Do warrior types need to invent the longbow? Do sneaky types need to invent lockpicks? Are they discovering feats, such as Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Dodge?
What's the ecology like? Are there magical monsters? What about outsiders?
What about the gods? Are there any? Do they interact with mortals?
Well, the longbow is probably cutting edge technology---the composite longbow they'd probably need to invent (think Bronze Age here, with a few tribes having the secret of iron, like the Hittites from our world). Rogues frankly might need to invent the Lock first :-) I hadn't thought about feats, but fighting styles certainly might need to be invented.
Ecologically, think something like Venus from pulp science fiction or Stirling's 'The Sky People'. Initially almost all your opposition is other proto-humans, animals, or dinosaurs. Magical monsters and outsiders aren't around yet. Magical research can inadvertently (or deliberately) attract the attention of outsiders, who haven't noticed this Reality yet (the Lords of Hell are all pretty preoccupied with their own early-stage Blood Wars).
As far as Gods---there is one Power that created this little Reality---it has basically been spawned off of another Reality. He became disgusted with what he'd created though and is now playing something of a non-interventionist role. There are several Primal Powers that are latent in the structure of the universe (i.e., they'll come into being if enough people decide to start worshipping them with at least one priest who actually knows HOW to worship--something that would require a similar bootstrap process to the one for wizards).
The setting is pre-apocalyptic, intended to go from very low technology and magic to very high in both prior to the great cataclysm in the space of from 1000-2000 years (brought about by the creating Power mentioned before). For the personality of the Power, think a fusion of Old Testament with a little bit of Azathoth (fairly inscrutable, with standards that are pretty much impossible for the Fallen). As outsiders become aware of this creation, they'll start intervening towards their own ends, corrupting bloodlines, and the like (incidentally introducing sorcerors). They may also supply technological, magical, or religious knowledge to civilizations insofar as it suits their own ends.
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