I'd like to test the system on the very opposite side of Epic, by letting my players build 1st level commoners with a barebone character point pool to spend on characteristics.
I was thinking about placing the adventure in the Sandpoint hinterlands, maybe in and around Grump's farm.
Ideas? How would you structure the encounters?
I have also looked into this idea :) what I found was the diffrence between npc classes and player classes isnt that much, for me wanting to have my players gain experience and then take there first player class was that they dont actually gain much in the main. The way I was think of going was to just have the npc class as free it wouldnt really hurt that much I was thinking.
On the encounters I was going to hand pick them as after all the great thing about starting like this is a single goblin is going to be really quite scary.
Will be intresting to see what others think :)
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GM: The Potato crop is poor this year. Roll a profession farming check.
Players: With the others aiding it adds up to 12.
GM: After months of toil you grow a fine crop of potatoes. You sell them at market for 10 copper pieces and gain 1 xp each.
Players: Awesome. I'm going to keep this money, there's a +1 Plough I'm hoping to get. At this rate I should be able to afford it once I hit "venerable".
I'm kidding of course.
A pair of goblins causing mischief around a farmstead or village would make for a fine adventure. Especially since commoners wouldn't commonly own armour or weapons (being restricted to reasonable farming implements). A little investigation here, a little emergency there (a burning barn, where the PCs must brave their way inside to free the animals, and maybe rescue one of the farm hands). Think a little bit Red Dead Redemption's early quests (rounding up horses would be another fine quest for players to embark on).
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I had a similar idea. I was going to use NPC classes to bridge the gap between childhood and the starting age for PC classes. At first I was going to start everyone out as basic Humans (children) and have them gradually work their way up to a Level 1 PC class. But now I am thinking that just using a hand full of NPC levels before they take Level 1 in their PC classes might work better. The NPC classes might add a little bit to the party CR but I would not count it against their Level 20 PC class advancement. It is certainly an interesting idea to work with. I ultimately want to build a story where the PCs have more in common than beginning their adventure in the same tavern or briefly alluding to some unknown past friendships. I want them to have an actual childhood past together and pre-existing common ground and friendships. That way they are already working as a fairly cohesive group both in Combat and RP scenarios before the meat of the campaign begins.
You should check out Dungeon Crawl Classics for 3.5 by Goodman Games. #00 Legends Are Made Not Born and #35A Halls of the Minotaur are both for 0 level PCs with only a basic NPC class. the Halls of the Minotaur plot is: "Humble villagers armed with farm tools venture into the
Thornswild Forest to rescue a fallen paladin.
There they uncover the ruins of a long-forgotten
citadel, a tribe of ferocious kobolds, and Toth-
Ror, a deadly minotaur bent on the PCs’ destruction"
and Legends are made not Born:
"An ogre is terrorizing the town of Dundraville. Six
brave citizens, mere peasants, band together
with a plan to put an end to the evil ogre’s villainy"
Yeah what got me thinking about it was the players asking 'have i seen this before, what do i know about it?' Ok it was more so in higher level games but I have had it in first level aswell. Well at first level you are above the normal really and its unlikely to be your first step out the door, so I thought 'why not have them start before they went adventuring'. That way they know what they have seen/fought as its what ever they have already done.
As for the campaign was thinking something around being in the same village, with maybe a hermit/wiseman or some such for the casters sort of thing and then have the village attacked. MAke sure to keep the players away from major action but they can still help even with just 1 or 2 cantrips, wood cutting ax or carving knife even a pitchfork LOL.
Sounds interesting but some things to bear in mind.
1) Do your players like it that low powered?
2) If you are going that low powered are you planning to tone down the enemies power or just make it more challenging than normal?
3) How long is it going to stay low powered? After all if they keep gaining exp they will level up.
4) If they start getting to highter levels are they going to gain some extra points to spend on stats, or are they going to stick with the barebones total forever?
Some players love low powered ideas like this. Some players hate it. I'm more the latter than the former, but it can be fun if done right.
Sounds like the makings of a very /fun/ one shot Halloween adventure.
Instead of the big bad heroes, they are playing ordinary folks having to deal with an extra ordinary problem.
(maybe a very low level gobbie "necro" trying to raise the dead, or maybe even using a scroll to get 1 skeleton on his side and using that to cause havoc or whatever).
Sounds like fun for a short run, but not really for a full campaign.. imo anyway
-S
I hadnt really thought as far as the stats really LOL but I may just have to revisist this idea :) As for the challenges I was thinking give bonuses just for the start to say sneak so they could hide and pick their fights with just 1 or 2 goblins say. I was intending to give exp so they could then advance to their really classes using this as just the catalist for them adventuring.
My players like any level really, I did run it past them when I had the idea and they were on side :)
Today this board has really got my juices flowing My keyboard is running red hot LOL, soooo many ideas so little time LOL.
Sounds interesting but some things to bear in mind.
1) Do your players like it that low powered?
2) If you are going that low powered are you planning to tone down the enemies power or just make it more challenging than normal?
3) How long is it going to stay low powered? After all if they keep gaining exp they will level up.
4) If they start getting to highter levels are they going to gain some extra points to spend on stats, or are they going to stick with the barebones total forever?
Some players love low powered ideas like this. Some players hate it. I'm more the latter than the former, but it can be fun if done right.
You bring up some very good points. I am not the type of DM to just say "This is the game I am going to run, take it or leave it, and I don't care if you agree with me." I actually have several ideas for games I would like to run at different power levels and ranging from very low magic, almost no magic, all the way up to magic being everywhere. This is something I would definitely sit down with my players and discuss; give them some options and suggestions and see what they are on board with.
I actually have tried to run a game where my players started out as kids. I didn't have a good mechanic for children growing into level 1 player class characters though. My players had a blast running around as kids and getting into trouble, but to me it felt very unorganized and unfulfilling simply because I didn't have a good idea of how I wanted the characters to grow into adventurers. The other issue I ran into was I felt I started them off a little too young. If you start out at 13 and your PC starting age is 18 that is 5 years you have to build content for. Yes you can fast forward and skip through portions but it still takes much more than I had initially planned for. And my final issue was racial maturity differences. I had mostly Humans but one character was an Elf and another was Half-Elf and it was a little odd having the 50+ year old Elf running around with the 13 year old Human children, even though they are really at about the same maturity level. Not that it is a game stopper but it was just a bit on the odd side and I had not thought of it before hand so it threw me off a little. Like I said though, the players had a blast but I was unhappy with my own lack of preparation and planning when I realized it would take a lot more than I thought it would.
1) They were on board with the idea of starting out as young adults or children without PC class levels. But they would probably want to progress from that fairly quickly. I would not hold them there for long.
2) I would definitely tone down the enemies and danger factors quite a bit. In many cases they would be completing "tasks" and "challenges" rather than fighting monsters. Although, enemies are not out of the question, sometimes even somewhat powerful enemies, which require cunning rather than combat to defeat. Again, building that cohesive group before the meat of the campaign is served up.
3) It would not stay in those non PC class low powered levels for long, maybe a hand full of levels. And in fact my original campaign, which I added this idea to as a prelude, was designed to go from low levels all the way into epic for 3.5 rules. I am not sure how I would handle above 20 PC class levels in PF, but that is a long way off.
4) They would advance in the NPC classes as normal. But when they achieved level 1 in a PC class they would start at 0 XP and level up in the PC class normally. The extra NPC levels would increase their CR a few points (due to being essentially multiclassed higher level characters already) but it would not affect things like their 20 level PC class progression or XP/Leveling progression in PC classes.
It would simply serve as a prelude to the actual party of adventurers getting together and getting into the meat of the campaign. Rather than starting out as Level X PCs hired to come defend some town in the middle of nowhere and getting to know one another on the caravan ride over, they would be people who grew up together in that town and rose to defend it when destiny came calling. That would also allow them to get a feel for their characters before they ever hit level 1, which I would personally enjoy since it is often level 5+ before I really know what I want to do with any character of mine.
...
Alternately I had also thought of starting them off as basic Humans with their PC stats and HP but with very few Skills and Feats, then working them up to full level 1 characters. But I think I prefer the NPC class backgrounds. I would have to discuss it with my players.
Any remember "Joe Wood" from the WOTC boards?
That was a fun read about a commoner adventurer.
Sounds pretty cool then. I'll chime in again if I have any more thoughts on the matter.
I like low rent games, I'd play it! :)
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A kid game you say? I'd play!
"Those stupid grown-ups never listen!" -The Boy Who Cried Goblin, just before the goblin raid on Sandpoint.
Instead of NPC classes, perhaps for the kids who have some training(or really liked to pretend to be great heroes), might I suggest The Genius Guide to Apprentice-Level Characters?
It doesn't sound exactly like what your looking for, but it might help.
EDIT: The Caught Off-Guard feat makes the pitchfork a viable weapon! Fear the little kid who feeds the horses and cows, for his spear has 3 points!
A kid game you say? I'd play!
"Those stupid grown-ups never listen!" -The Boy Who Cried Goblin, just before the goblin raid on Sandpoint.
Instead of NPC classes, perhaps for the kids who have some training(or really liked to pretend to be great heroes), might I suggest The Genius Guide to Apprentice-Level Characters?
It doesn't sound exactly like what your looking for, but it might help.
EDIT: The Caught Off-Guard feat makes the pitchfork a viable weapon! Fear the little kid who feeds the horses and cows, for his spear has 3 points!
That looks like an interesting book. People have high reviews for it and the mechanics it presents. I might just have to take a look at that, thanks for pointing it out.
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I got nothin' for 0-level, but as a continuation of the lower level, not-quite-heroic-but-getting-there-fast theme, you could use this idea I've been toying with using chokers.
An evolved choker (...5, 6, 7 intelligence, medium size, etc) has moved into a moderately sized town and is picking people off in their homes, stealing random objects it is attracted to in order to create his own "house" in a cutaway area of the small sewer system the town has. PCs hear tales of people disappearing at night without a trace, with the strangest things being stolen from their homes (for instance, a set of bowls and wooden spoons, a rocking chair with the cushions removed, a mirror which appears to have been broken in a struggle, an old make up kit, and a doll set).
I imagine the PCs going on a man-hunt and when they finally discover the choker's lair, they are greeted as "guests" in the filthy would-be home that the little whacko has fixed up. He'd probably have put make-up on his "wife" and they'd have a little one or two chewing on poor (dead) little Suzie's dollies. And of course he would speak in common. Broken common, using lots of one and two syllable words but trying very hard to sound eloquent and civilized.
... I was inspired by the Heroes of Horror book from Wizards... And it's getting close to Halloween... :D