Especially, since part of having a five Charisma is that you probably can't keep your big, fat mouth shut in social situations. 5 is low enough (actually 6 or 7 is probably low enough) that such a character is actively offensive to a wide variety of people. He can't just sit in the back and let the face do all the talking. No need to use DM fiat. His mere presence should be enough to cause a negative modifier. While the rules don't state that should happen, they don't state it shouldn't, either. Perfectly within DM right to make it so, and I would say it should be done. Too many folks think they can use dump stats in the roleplaying attributes and get away with it.
I realize this kind of thing is sensitive with the RAW crowd, but by my lights roleplaying NPC reactions (without rolling dice) is well within the limits of GM fiat. In fact, I think it is an essential part of good GMing. If you pick a character who is malodorous and shockingly ugly, or who wears pleated pants or is otherwise utterly rebarbative, the world will take notice. You aren't getting away with a 5 Charisma thinking everything will be fine if you just stand in the back and keep your mouth shut in every social situation.
Just because you're socially clueless doesn't mean you're unaware of it. Keeping your mouth shut and staying in the back works in real life well enough, why go out of your way to penalize it in game?
are they any better than a rogue without sneak attack?
-James
Yes, actually. And by the way, I had to laugh at the totally unplayable minmaxing on that character. Seriously, 5 strength and 7 wisdom?
Using a 20 point buy for a melee build, I'd go with a human or half-elf with the following stats:
Str 18 (+2 from race goes here)
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 12
Alternately, drop Dex by 1 and Wis by 2 and raise Charisma to 14 if you want that bonus 5th level and 1st level spell eventually or plan to use several Charisma based skills.
At first level he takes Arcane Strike. Rogues don't usually focus on Strength in my experience; the most I've ever personally seen on a point buy Rogue is 14. Compared to that Rogue, he hits for 0.5 points less damage than the Rogue's sneak attack-boosted damage, and 3 points higher if the Rogue can't sneak attack, plus he has the Eidolon.
5 strength on halfling means you can carry a grand total of 12 pounds before being encumbered, including your clothes. Spell component pouches are 2 of that. Clothes are another 1/2 pound, as is the backpack. Your waterskin is another pound. That's 4/12 pounds just for essentially required gear. That limits you to padded or normal leather armor only if you don't want an arcane spell failure chance. Plus, you're insanely vulnerable to Shadows. A single attack from a Shadow will more-or-less permanently kill a strength 5 character 1/3 of the time (even if you had the 5,000 gold diamond, characters who have been raised as undead cannot be resurrected by raise dead; you need a resurrection or higher).
That's not even getting into the fact that the 7 Wisdom pretty much means you have no good saves at all.
You're right that it isn't totally unplayable, but it has glaring, glaring critical weaknesses that makes the character a walking timebomb. It's going to die horribly; the only interesting part is the betting in the death pool.
5 strength on halfling means you can carry a grand total of 12 pounds before being encumbered, including your clothes. Spell component pouches are 2 of that. Clothes are another 1/2 pound, as is the backpack. Your waterskin is another pound. That's 4/12 pounds just for essentially required gear. That limits you to padded or normal leather armor only if you don't want an arcane spell failure chance. Plus, you're insanely vulnerable to Shadows. A single attack from a Shadow will more-or-less permanently kill a strength 5 character 1/3 of the time (even if you had the 5,000 gold diamond, characters who have been raised as undead cannot be resurrected by raise dead; you need a resurrection or higher).
That's not even getting into the fact that the 7 Wisdom pretty much means you have no good saves at all.
You're right that it isn't totally unplayable, but it has glaring, glaring critical weaknesses that makes the character a walking timebomb. It's going to die horribly; the only interesting part is the betting in the death pool.
I agree, that's minmaxing things a bit too much. I personally can't stand putting a stat lower than 8.
Honestly though, I think the benefit that the summoner gets from having extra spells from high Cha is being underestimated a bit even if he doesn't get as many as a caster with full spellcasting progression. Sure his Save DC's can never match a wizard. If he has help from his eidolon some of his spells can be extremely effective.
Try having your eidolon use the push or pull evolutions (or even simple bull rushes) to get enemies into pit spells or black tentacles. The summoner isn't great at battlefield control when he's by himself, but with the eidolon he can do it pretty effectively. Having a high Cha simply lets him cast his spells a little more often.
Plus, one or two more spells per day can also leave him enough left over to buff himself and make himself just as effective as if he had put those points into Str or Dex in the first place. For a shorter period of time sure, but I think the greater versatility is nice.
Who said anything about that? I sure didn't.
And not pick stuff like Black tentacles or Glitterdust?
No but you did say:
Yes, and almost all of those have a reduced DC to start with because you get them as lower-than standard level spells. Taking Spell Focus for them is throwing good money after bad.
Spell focus conjuration and Augment Summon is throwing good money after bad?
A) So what are you going to do when your Eidolon is sent home? Spend the rest of your day using your bow? Using your SPA sounds like a better plan, especially since you can use your bow too.B) Eidolon sent back? You can cast Summon Eidolon, so there is another reason to pick SF Conjuration/AS. Giving your Eidolon +4 to Str and Con is not bad.
C) Didn't we agree on Glitterdust being a good spell? In fact most conjuration spells have no SR, so using them is not bad, especially if you are going to pick SF Conjuration/AS. The combination of Black tentacles and stinking cloud is a nice one, but there are probably other spells that are just as good or better.
almost all of those have a reduced DC to start with because you get them as lower-than standard level spells
yes, but that doesn't mean they are useless. Also, didn't you just say: "Bards actually have a wide variety of good effects with saving throws" Well with a char of 16-20 they have a reduced DC too. I agree that abilities and spells with a reduced DC is a problem, but that doesn't make them useless. In fact picking spell focus is one way to compensate for that, another is adjusting the use of spells to the situation at hand. Facing an ogre with bad will saves and even worse reflex saves you could use Glitterdust or a pit spell.
Monsters summoned via summon monster are only useful as meat shields until SMVI or so, and only vaguely useful as meat shields until SMIII or so.
Not a bad meat shield if you are using Augment Summon, and if you buff them with mage armor, magic fang and/or other spells they are actually quite useful.
You're spending an entire round's worth of actions to summon a creature that, assuming you're using your highest level slot, is 3-6 CRs below what you're fighting at an absolute minimum.
? ? ?
from the APG: "Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. [.…] the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level)." And yes, JB has already verified Augment Summon applies to these summons.
They are not a threat, and any intelligent creature is going to completely ignore them if at all possible. .
You make it sound like it's all black and white. It isn't. If you (or anyone else) want more arguments regarding SM check out Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God
Furthermore, it's not like a bare minimum Charisma Summoner can't do exactly the same thing. Which is what this thread is about: the usefulness of Charisma to a Summoner.
Yes, but with a higher charisma you get more spells per day and some people say that equals more flexibility. Also as pointed out, with a decent charisma score you could actually use spells with a save. It's not a matter of starting with 12 char vs 19. It more a question of should I go charisma or not. Me, I would probably start with 15 - 17 depending on 15 or 20 Point Buy.
To be clear, I'm not saying that Summoners shouldn't cast spells. What I'm saying is that Summoners shouldn't devote all of their resources to casting spells because they can do their job 95% as well without doing so, and devoting resources to other jobs makes them far more versatile and more effective overall.
This might be true. I wouldn't start with 19 char, but then again I would never start with 12 char. I think Abrahams earlier post pretty much sums it up.
The summoner has multiple ways to go about being played. All of them are valid with each having different perks and drawbacks.
Just because you're socially clueless doesn't mean you're unaware of it.I disagree in part. The most socially clueless people are that way and remain that way because they are unaware of it. They offend everyone around them without seeming to care or notice.
"unaware of it" is more a matter low wisdom. I've seen crazy people that are both inteligent and charismatic.
I've got a friend with ADHD (I'm not saying he is Crazy). He is very charismatic and funny, but he can't keep is mouth shut.
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Zurai wrote:
You're spending an entire round's worth of actions to summon a creature that, assuming you're using your highest level slot, is 3-6 CRs below what you're fighting at an absolute minimum.? ? ?
You're not spending an entire round. You're spending a standard action.
Highest level slots? Why on earth would you use your spells?
from the APG: "Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. [.…] the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level)." And yes, JB has already verified Augment Summon applies to these summons.Not all fights are boss fights. SM + Augment Summon is not a bad back up plan. It's not all about damage. It's good utility spell as well and a good Battlefield Control spell.
We're talking about using a spell so that the eidolon doesn't have to go away, not the SLA. Most of these points do not apply to that situation.
I wasn't aware of this. My bad. Still with Augment Summon they still function as meat shield, help with flanking etc.
But I agree with Zurai, SM as a spell is not a good choice, there are far better options and far better spells to pick.
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I'm still confused about what team Dex/team Str hope to accomplish with the character. Do they feel the damage output of the bow with minimal feats add up? Str-builds can at least do decent damage, but moving to the front line when your true damage output (the eidilon) is reliant on your hp doesn't exactly seem smart.
The Cha gives you something, and that something is the few spells worth taking that do have saves (grease/slow) and the ability to act as party face. Sure Dex builds at least get solid AC, but if you stay off the front line even that doesn't matter as much.
As to summons, III and IV are vastly overpowered for the level, and summoners can uniquely empower Summon Monster IV with a lesser rod. This let's you get 1, 3, or 4 apes on the battlefield, an incredible deal that can spin combats at any level, especially if all are augmented (augmented summoning benefits
Most if you go down level and get multiples). These feats, plus the standard "keep alive" feats, are far better use of your build.
So while you can dump it, I'd rather keep it high, get to the "don't fail" aspects of UmD faster, and be the face :).
Just because you're socially clueless doesn't mean you're unaware of it. Keeping your mouth shut and staying in the back works in real life well enough, why go out of your way to penalize it in game?People who are socially clueless are just that. They don't know they are. If they have enough social awareness to know they don't have good people skills and choose to keep to the background, they, by definition, aren't socially clueless. That person probably has a total Charisma of 8-10, not 5-7. 5-7 is actively obnoxious. Many people will be taking an active dislike to that person. Now, they could put skill points into Diplomacy, etc., and that's fair enough. That's just a smart person compensating for a known weakness, like my father-in-law, who stuttered as a child and young man, joining Toastmasters.
My point is that, no matter what the stat, if you allow players in point build to take a 5-7 in any stat and never have any in-game consequences, you have given the powergamers amongst them a HUGE advantage and thrown off the balance in the game. You would frankly have to pump up encounter difficulty to compensate.
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In general for the non-full-spellcasting classes, I believe it's better to focus on buff spells or spells that don't allow saves since the DCs of your spells are going to be a bit behind the curve. Spell Focus (Conjuration) and a high Charisma aren't needed if you're picking your spells based of that criteria.
I make an exception for Glitterdust, which I take as an invisibility counter rather than an offensive spell.
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I make an exception for Glitterdust, which I take as an invisibility counter rather than an offensive spell.If your CHA is going to be as low as 12+item then I would suggest that you consider scrolls (then later a wand) of it instead?
Might cost you a move action to draw it out, but otherwise you might not want to spend a spell known on it.
-James
Not a bad idea. Save that spell slot for something where caster level actually matters.
As opposed to the brute 18STR with a 13DEX that you're going to put into melee with light armor.. well what weapon is he using again?
Longspear. Y'know, the one with reach? So he can stand behind his Eidolon, still benefit from a shield bonus to AC (putting him above the rogue), and Arcane Strike for more damage than a sneak attackless rogue, not counting his buffs. Alternately, take Heirloom Weapon and use whatever you want. No feat needed.
And again the eidolon is not a factor here, as we're building a pair of summoners.
It's a factor because you keep whining that the Summoner can't even do as much damage as a sneak attackless Rogue (which is false in the first place; he actually does more) and acting like that matters at all. You're trying to compare a whole character to a half a character and draw conclusions from it. It's not even apples and oranges; you're trying to compare apples and transistor radios.
And I'm sorry you're talking about one PC that's hard to see that has a WILL save 2-3 points (depending on tweak of your build) less while having a REF save 2 points more is less viable than a low DEX PC in melee?
Reflex is the least useful save. There are extremely few REF or die spells; mostly they're WILL or die or FORT or die. Thus, sacrificing points from WILL for points in REF is counter-productive. You're making yourself more vulnerable to the character-killer spells in exchange for making yourself less vulnerable to the spells that are less likely to kill you in the first place.
Also by putting your summoner directly into harm's way (melee) you increase the chance that both are taken out at once.
If you're going to throw the "glowing rune" thing at me, then that works both ways. If you don't take the time to cover up the rune, then it doesn't matter where you stand, intelligent creatures will attack you to take out both you and the Eidolon. And if you're hiding in the back, then you are doing NOTHING to contribute to the battle, because casting spells will unhide you.
you've sacrificed all of his skills to fight in melee,
False. He still gets 6-7 skill points per level (2-3 from self, depending on favored class benefit, and 4 from the Eidolon).
you're spending his feats to fight in melee,
I am? I've spent one feat: Arcane Strike. Admittedly, I'd probably pick up Weapon Focus, too. After that? There's really nothing else to pick. Continue on with whatever other feats you want.
you've sacrificed your casting any save dependent spell to fight in melee,
Big whoop. The Summoner's true spellcasting strengths are area denial and buffing.
you've hit you're ability to combat cast to fight in melee,
Hunh?
and you've sacrificed several top level spell slots to fight in melee.
Several being two? One fifth and one sixth? Or even just one sixth if you use the alternate build I presented?
If you're not any good at fighting in melee... well then what does matter? But more to the point, why spend so much effort to be mediocre?
You're continuously ignoring the fact that I have exceeded your benchmark. It's really getting quite funny how you keep hammering that he's worse than (or no better than) a Rogue without Sneak Attack, when in fact I've shown and said several times now that he is, AND that the combined Eidolon + Summoner is better than a Rogue WITH sneak attack (something which your version is not).
Once again, since you seem unwilling to respond to it:
You're not actually sacrificing anything for quite some time by starting out with 12-14 Charisma. You'll have the same number of spells per day, the same number of spells known, and both characters will have a hard time making spells actually stick to their targets. It's only at levels 15+ where a full caster build really pulls ahead of the hybrid build at casting by any significant margin, and you've sacrificed everything else to get there while still being nothing more than a mediocre caster. Guess what? The guy that started with 12 Charisma and now has 18 (from a +6 headband) is also a mediocre caster. What's your real gain over him? You're both mediocre, but at least he doesn't shrivel up and die if something looks at him funny.
PS. You cannot compare an Eidolon's skills to a Sorcerer with Leadership. Cohorts do not even exist until 7th level, Leadership is the most commonly banned feat in the game, and it isn't part of anyone's class features. Eidolons are an inherent class feature of the Summoner from level 1. More apples vs transistor radios comparisons.
Actually that is what i like most about the AGP. AGP gives us classes that can be build effective 100 ways. All have strong points and weak points.
The label optimized charater does not only apply to pure damage output.
- optimized support
- optimized blaster (damage spells)
- optimized buffing (support spells)
- sozial skills
- item creation
The high str low char will win the awared in pure damage output. I would prefer such a summoner for low levels (1-5). The high Chr char will shine later (UMD, Spells).
Yeah i know the STR summoner can cast spells, too. But if you can cast a spell every turn how often will the 18 Str matter ;-)
On higher levels 10+ i don't think a summoner will attack as much. For the cost of a +3 Weapon (18000 gp) a summoner could buy a wand of Evolution Surge (15750 gp). So for the next 50 fights the first round will most likely be an Evolution Surge.
Depending on the compain and DM style the STR or CHR build will be better.
For example if you have a compain/DM that throws 10+ fights against a party all day. In a time critical compain (ex. Red Hand of Doom 3.5) where the party is on the run after or from an orc army every day. The 18 STR summoner could be much more effectiv and durable.
In a compain (ex. Kingmaker ... havn't started the compain yet but compain guide and DM give as some clues so i am quite sure Kingmaker fits as an example) that allows some off time to use item creation feats and/or the pathfinder Recharging rules for staves the CHR 16-18 summoner will have a bigger impact on the game at level 5+.
In our up coming kingmaker compain i will play a Half-Elf Summoner STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 13 INT: 12 WIS: 10 CHA: 16 with a focus on item creation and support. Spear for low levels and AoO as backup.
So please stop arguing if CHR is a dump stat or if a STR build summoner or a chr based summoner is better. There is NO better.
Which one is better complettly depends on:
1. compain
2. DM style (ex. 2 or 100 fights a day)
3. Other party members
4. Optimsation goal (damage, support, etc.)
and what is most important the style of PC a player wants to play.
So back to the question of this thread:
"Charisma is a Summoner's dump stat?"
Answer:
"Maybe ..."
Breiti
So back to the question of this thread:
"Charisma is a Summoner's dump stat?"
Answer:
"Maybe ..
./cheer. It's almost like attempting to optimise for effectiveness* in a single/narrow series of scenarios isn't as beneficial as optimising for many/ a wider range of scenarios.
::
O_o I CAN DO X in Y!!1!
-.o ...but can you do Z? Coz.. ...right now, we really need Z..
I ended up using charisma as a dump stat (20 charisma).
Most of them, at least.
stuff
Hello Preston Poulter.
If you look at the previous page you will find my answers to your points. Look at the Spoiler by pressing show.You will also notice I invite anyone who wants to discuss the Bard some more to create a thread and add a link to that thread, because I don't want to Threadjack this thread. This thread is about the summoner, so let's stay on track and not mess with Keltslash's thread.
/Kind regards Zark.