|
it seemed to me the summoner in the playtest was one of the debated character classes with some saying to powerful others saying not powerful enough - especially after the revised class came out
so what changes have been made and what do you think of the changes
I know a couple like if the summoner is unconcious or goes to sleep the eidolon goes back to home plane - what the? so no other class with a pet has this problem so is this just another nerf to a potentially good class?
summoners also lost the ability to use summon monster as a SLA unless the eidolon is not summoned - so another good ability wasted - I cant see my character ever using this ability unless emergency so another nerf?
what other changes are there & what are you opinions
That there's no real agreement on what the summoner's theme is supposed to be is another issue.
|
|
thanks Kortz - I found one thread of 138 posts & read them all. cant see another though
I liked the original summoner although the eidolon needed some toning down which they did in the revised version during the playtest with the maximum no. of attacks - which they kept (needed & not surprised) but from what I have read they took the class & slightly increased the spell list to be more closer to the original one than the revised one & then nerfed the summoner again with the SLA & losing the eidolon while asleep/unconscious?
does this some up the new summoner?
I am just trying to understand what changes they made before I get the book - the summoner was the only class I was interested in & was a major reason for getting the book - the other rules were not a big deal just a bonus
if the above is basically what the new summoner has come out to be then to me it is dead - I dont need to playtest the new one cause I already did during the playtest & came to the conclusion that the revised one S&^%ed compared to my druid so I would not bother. I was hoping the nerf bat was being swung back to the other direction - not alot just some. If it has had even more nerfs without any good bonuses (the spell list improving was a start) then the druid is still better to me!
again I am just trying to understand the changes they made not discuss whether the class is good or bad - that is personal opinion & mine currently is leaning to bad
thanks all
Cee
|
I dont need to playtest the new one cause I already did during the playtest & came to the conclusion that the revised one S&^%ed compared to my druid
It always was and always will be inferior to the Druid, but I don't believe that it was balanced against the Druid, any more than the Witch was balanced against the Druid. Divine casters operate on a different scale than arcane casters. Pathfinder nerfed both the Cleric and the Druid, and buffed both the Sorcerer and the Wizard, and it's still debatable if they went far enough (or too far, or moved the wrong goalposts entirely).
I believe that it was balanced against the Sorcerer and Wizard, and, at that level, it sacrifices a larger spell list and some Bloodline/Specialization abilities for better HD, BAB, armor options, a halfway decent pet and / or some pretty nice SLAs. The changes to the Eidolon, unfortunately, have resulted in a lot of page space devoted to a class ability that has been increasingly marginalized, and, unlike a Druid's Companion or a Wizard's Familiar, won't even exist for a chunk of the campaign, or, given the impressive utility of the Summon Monster SLAs, might not ever be called upon until *after* the Summoner has exhausted his SLAs for the day, as a fallback, instead of a class-defining feature.
It ends up being a much more specialized class than the Sorcerer or Wizard, much as 3.5s Dread Necromancer and Beguiler were much more specialized, but better in their niche than a traditional Necromancer specialist or Enchantment specialist would have been.
If you want a good pet class, the Druid (or an Animal Domain Cleric or Ranger with the Boon Companion feat) remains the bee's knees, with the ability to call up a completely different companion creature, from eagle to roc to bison to ape to crocigator to viper to any of a half-dozen dinosaurs with 24 hours notice. Unlike a Summoner, who would have to wait until 5th level or so to get access to a flying companion or a venomous companion, a druid can call one up at 1st level, and, if a Halfling, Gnome, Goblin or Kobold, can even ride a Roc companion at 1st level, having a flying mount. Your animal will never have the damage reduction, elemental damage, etc. properties, without the use of magic items (amulet of keen flaming magic fang?), but you can in fact stack that animal companion up with magic items, or even mundane 'barding,' so, again, advantage to the Druid (Ranger, Animal Domain Cleric).
If you want someone able to summon beasties as a standard action and keep them out for minutes / level, instead of rounds / level, the Summoner can do that, and that's not a small feat there.
|
|
isnt the ability to summon critters for minutes witha standard action limited only to the SLA which means you cant have the eidolon around as well though?
Yep, which is why I mentioned that it was an 'and / or' situation.
Given the utility of the SLA, and the increasing limitations on the Eidolon, it's best to adventure normally with just the SLAs, IMO, and not bother summoning the Eidolon at all until you are out of SLAs, or there is some specific situation where he could be helpful.
It might even be more effective post-nerf to skip the combat-build Eidolons and just make a utility Eidolon that has some spells and some movement abilities, and only summon him up to use as a swiss army knife.
You could summon the Eidolon up for RP reasons, but given that he'll vanish occasionally and leave you in the lurch, and Life Link is pretty much junk, it's probably best not to bother. Just have your Summoner talk to himself and pretend he's talking to his Eidolon. Maybe call yourself Donnie Darko.
a utility Eidolon that has some spells
Not possible. You can only select the Spell-Like Ability evolution once.
There's really no such thing as a "utility Eidolon". Creatures from summon monster have more utility except at very low levels.
It vaguely amuses me that adding more legs increases the eidolon's fly speed.
I am easily amused. :(
It vaguely amuses me that adding more legs increases the eidolon's fly speed.
I am easily amused. :(
Sleipnir doesn't find that strange at all! :p
|
|
The stuff you've mentioned has been pretty well beated to death in the other thread.
thx Ogre but the I think the other thread got off the topic & since Jason closed the thread so did he
my original point (and maybe I was clear enough so my fault) was to list the changes from the final playtest
eg.
nerf - eidolon goes when summoner sleeps
nerf - SLA cant be used when eidolon around/summoned/called or whatever you want to call it
improved - spell list more like original list ie more powerful
with all the posts in the other thread I was having trouble seeing what had been nerfed or improved with the summoner
I am sure every person will have different ideas on whether the summoner with all the changes is good or bad - that is personal opinion & not what I am after - just a list so I can form my own opinion
hope this makes more sense
nerf - eidolon goes when summoner sleeps
nerf - SLA cant be used when eidolon around/summoned/called or whatever you want to call it
improved - spell list more like original list ie more powerful
improved - Eidolon base form can be changed now every time you can reallocate your evolution points.
I don't know about the base form being changeable now. It no longer explicitly states you can't, but it does say it's the 'starting base' and doesn't explicitly call out you can change it.
I would guess they decided to make it ambiguous so that the GM could decide for themselves.
nerf : Maximum # of attacks (note that this only applies to natural attacks, they can have as many weapon attacks as you want, due to an oversight, and you can mix and match the two, so the biggest issue that led to the other nerfs, which was overpowering, is still there). If they'd fixed that, I'd be less upset about the nerfs, but nerfing something and not fixing the overpower issue the nerfing was supposed to address is really just beyond the pale.
unaddressed issue : You can't build a bird eidelon without having extra bits stuck on it, be they arms, extra legs, or a tail, with the current base forms.
|
I don't know about the base form being changeable now. It no longer explicitly states you can't, but it does say it's the 'starting base' and doesn't explicitly call out you can change it.
It only lists the evolution points as being changeable, so that's the only thing I'd assume you could change.
nerf : Maximum # of attacks (note that this only applies to natural attacks, they can have as many weapon attacks as you want, due to an oversight, and you can mix and match the two, so the biggest issue that led to the other nerfs, which was overpowering, is still there). If they'd fixed that, I'd be less upset about the nerfs, but nerfing something and not fixing the overpower issue the nerfing was supposed to address is really just beyond the pale.
Personally, I'm going to house-rule that you can't have more arms than your max attacks. That seems the simplest fix.
What this class did for me, was open up my eyes to a new idea, and basically laid the groundwork for it.
During Beta, when I introduced it to my game, I brought it in as an Undead creation instead. It had a different set of stats per level, and a tweaked list of evolutions (taking away Con-related stuff, adding in undead specific things).
This "eidolon" was basically 100% there (never returned to a home plane), but could be destroyed to the point of needing to be recreated (taking time and/or skill checks).
This did not break the game, but then I changed a lot of the natural armor bonus and the way you get large/huge.
I never restricted magic items either, since character wealth pretty much kicked that one in the butt.
Later, the request for utility made me tweak the evolutions again so that I could redesign the way the eidolon's body worked... ending up with the option for Tiny flying eidolons at first level if desired.
Splitting your HD into multiple creations (for multiple utility, or a couple utility and one big hitter) is now an idea that I'll look at adding due to the other stuff released in the APG.
Overall, I'm glad they came up with the class, as it opened the door for a lot of new ideas (a shapeshifter using evolution ideas would be amazing).
I seriously doubt I'll ever play the current incarnation of the Summoner in my games though, unless it's an NPC.
The Eidolon chart specifies the maximum number of attacks you can build for the eidolon depending on it's level. How you build them is irrelevant whether claw, bite, or bludgeon at first level for instance you're limited to 3.they can have as many weapon attacks as you want, due to an oversight,
I don't think that you can call it an oversight when it says directly "This does not include attacks made with weapons."
Rather the problem is that there is no longer any idea what is intended by all of these exceptions. The reasonings given are not the intentions but rather the excuses/explanations rather than motivations.
-James
Incorrect. It specifies the number of natural attacks the eidolon may have. You can violate this using maufactured weapons if you have enough hands and multiweapon fighting.
Oh let's not start this again.
Of course that means you are focusing ENTIRELY on the Eidolon itself. Which means you are blowing your ability as a caster to do anything but puppetmaster the Eidolon. Which is really what the "Summoner" has become, a puppet master for his Eidolon pet. The Summoner is basically the Thuamaturgist now.
Eidonlons are not people and cannot be enlarged :)
I was kind of assuming a permanency enlarge person on the eidolon ... in fact if I was optimizing my Summoner I would get UMD and use a scroll of permanency to cast the permanency enlarge person on my Eidolon, as if I was casting it on myself, so it wouldn't get dispelled.
This a is truly well optimized Eidolon, close to cheesy in fact ... the druid only really has to say "I pick the tiger" to get an optimized animal companion.
Can you permanency an eidolon? Would it automatically go away when you have to resummon it? If you used your SLA, would you get a different Eidolon than if you used Summon Eidolon, like you do if you have augmented summoning and use the spell?
Eidonlons are not people and cannot be enlarged :)
false. The summoner can use spells on his eidolon as if he was casting it on himself. Person spells work if the summoner is casting them on the eidolon.
Of course that means you are focusing ENTIRELY on the Eidolon itself. Which means you are blowing your ability as a caster to do anything but puppetmaster the Eidolon. Which is really what the "Summoner" has become, a puppet master for his Eidolon pet. The Summoner is basically the Thuamaturgist now.Only the first round, after that you still have some kick ass spells in your repertoire. What you are not is a proper summoner ... not without the SLA. Full round summoning spells just aren't good enough to use most of the time, they are on your spell list but you aren't better at using them than other casters.
Mean while the totemic druid can summon his totem animals as a standard action (as well as apply some templates to fill out dead SNA levels where your totem animals don't occur). Now that's a summoner.
But if you stack the Eidolon with magic items to make it awesome, you are just a puppet master. The Summoner as it now stands is a great Thaumaturgist - as lifted and adapted from 3.5, but a terrible Summoner.
Well, he would be a greater Thaumaturgist if he didn't turn into a half class if he is temporarily knocked out during a fight.
I'm assuming they will fix the manufactured weapon issue by letting each weapon count as one attack for the max, I'm just pre-adjusting for the errata.
I'm ignoring the bite because I have 4 natural attacks to work with and the claws are better ... even if I wasn't using the sword I would use claws exclusively. For each 2 claw hits which connect you get a rend.
I'm using a greatsword because iterative attacks kick ass. Actually you'd do about the same damage with 5 claws for now, but throw a haste on top and the greatsword build steams ahead.
PS. if permanency was lost when resummoning then so would magic items, I don't think so Tim.
Not flaming, just making a few notes.
1) You have to take the rend evolution.
2) James' already said he's leaving the manufactured/natural weapons as is. At least for now.
3) There's no official ruling one way or the other on spells/items when the summon goes Poof/Resummon.
I do agree with the sentiment expressed by several people. The summoner is now so scattered, he's not really good at anything anymore.
He has a pet, but it's not as good as a Druid or even a Ranger's pet. And, the pet goes poof if he sleeps, is knocked unconscious, or dies (not that the dies part is unreasonable).
He can summon monster, but only as well as Druid's and to some extent even specialist wizards can out summon him on summon monster. The biggest advantage he gets is duration, but the summons are still squishy, in general.
He's pretty good at buffing, but not quite as good as the bard (who can buff everyone in a certain radius that hears him), and clerics get better buffs honestly.
He's got some hp and armor, but not as good as a druid, but better than a wizard or sorcerer and the same as a bard.
He's decent at 4 different things, but a master of none, and arguably the worst at his class focus.
That only applies to spells which are personal only i.e. Target equals "You".Eidonlons are not people and cannot be enlarged :)false. The summoner can use spells on his eidolon as if he was casting it on himself. Person spells work if the summoner is casting them on the eidolon.
Unfortunately, a strict reading of RAW indicates this is true.
I've never particularly cared for this reading, in this class or any other.
I believe in my own games, this will be relaxed to be any spell you can cast on yourself.
That only applies to spells which are personal only i.e. Target equals "You".Eidonlons are not people and cannot be enlarged :)false. The summoner can use spells on his eidolon as if he was casting it on himself. Person spells work if the summoner is casting them on the eidolon.
Well, the Eidolon's Share Spells says:
"Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list."
The text doesn't say 'a Summoner may cast SUCH spells on his Eidolon...', which would limit it to the spells mentioned in the previous sentence (spells with a target of 'You' and spells with a range of Touch). So it seems reasonable (well, to me at least) that ANY spell cast by a Summoner can affect his Eidolon if desired (well, it could be argued that spells coming from a magic item wielded by the Summoner - like a Wand, for example - could not function in this way, only spells actually cast from the daily allotment list of the Summoner).
Just my 2c.
Well, the Eidolon's Share Spells says:
"Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list."
The text doesn't say 'a Summoner may cast SUCH spells on his Eidolon...', which would limit it to the spells mentioned in the previous sentence (spells with a target of 'You' and spells with a range of Touch). So it seems reasonable (well, to me at least) that ANY spell cast by a Summoner can affect his Eidolon if desired (well, it could be argued that spells coming from a magic item wielded by the Summoner - like a Wand, for example - could not function in this way, only spells actually cast from the daily allotment list of the Summoner).
Just my 2c.
I agree with this interpretation. It isn't the best wording, but I think the intent definately was for the summoner to be able to cast pretty much any spell that he wants on his Eidolon. So, that's one issue fixed.
Well, he would be a greater Thaumaturgist if he didn't turn into a half class if he is temporarily knocked out during a fight.
This is easily fixed, but in a silly way. All the best summoners are going to be Elves and Half-Elves (both are immune to sleep spells) who have themselves and their eidolons take the diehard feat. They'll almost never have to worry about sleep spells or unconsiousness. Heck, in a lot of campaigns Elves don't even have to sleep. Period.
Edit: Hey....I just thought of a neat trick for summoners. They have life link, and they have spells that let them resummon their Eidolon (at full health I think) even after it has already been killed. By combining this with Die Hard, a summoner can basically multiply his health pool by several times by resummoning his Eidolon over and over. I'm going to have to check this to see if it would actually work...
|
|
What this class did for me, was open up my eyes to a new idea, and basically laid the groundwork for it.
During Beta, when I introduced it to my game, I brought it in as an Undead creation instead. It had a different set of stats per level, and a tweaked list of evolutions (taking away Con-related stuff, adding in undead specific things).
The Summoner, as presented, is indeed the tip of the iceberg. A 'summoner' that instead crafts a Construct, or an Undead, or conjures up a Fey spirit from the First World, or an Elemental, are all neat options to play with.
Lets compare a level 10 eidolon to a level 10 animal companion charging an AC24 target. The former buffed with enlarge person, greater magic fang and greater evolution surge and the latter with greater magic fang and animal growth. I'm going to assume that every manufactured weapon counts will end up counting as a single natural attack after they errata it. So I'll stick with a single two handed weapon (and of course ignore the insane TWF manufactured/natural weapon rule from the core rulebooks and use the bestiary rules instead).
Eidolon gets :
Evolutions :
pounce 1
limbsx2 4
clawsx2 2
Weapon training 2
Improved damage claws 1
Large 4
Rend 2Feats : INA claws, Weapon focus claws, martial weapons proficiency greatsword.
Items : greatsword +2
Strength : 14 + 4 (level bonus) + 8 (large) + 2 (level) + 2 (enlarge) = 30
Attacks (charge bonus offsets size penalty) :
+20/+15 Greatsword 4d6+2+15
Claws +18/+18/+18/+18 2d8+1+5Damage (lets ignore crits for ease) :
(0.85 + 0.6) * 31 + 4*0.75*15 + (0.95 + 0.32) * 25 (this is for rend) = 43.4 + 45 + 31.7 = 120 damageIf you optimize the hell out of your Eidolon, it can kick the Animal companions ass.
PS. in the first version of this post I forgot +4 strength on the Eidolon and came to a complete different conclusion.
I'm doing a summoner now that looks much like this, but he is only level 3 right now:P Although I'm not sure how your version is using a greatsword with no limbs to hold it. Nevermind where he is getting the second greatsword attack from. Eidolons don't get any second attacks, their BAB only goes up to a +15 with no additional attacks like the fighter has.
I'm doing a summoner now that looks much like this, but he is only level 3 right now:P Although I'm not sure how your version is using a greatsword with no limbs to hold it. Nevermind where he is getting the second greatsword attack from. Eidolons don't get any second attacks, their BAB only goes up to a +15 with no additional attacks like the fighter has.
Actually, any creature can get Iteritive attacks with manufactured weapons once it gets a high enough BAB, it doesn't matter that the Eidolon's chart doesn't actually list them. As for the limbs issue...maybe there was another set from the base form? If so, then it adds up.
I wouldn't say the lack of extra iterative progressions on the table is enough to overrule that rule ... especially since the description also says :
"Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus."Not exactly the same as saying they do for manufactured weapons, but pretty close.
Ah okay I see. I was just assumed they were on the hands.
Actually, any creature can get Iteritive attacks with manufactured weapons once it gets a high enough BAB, it doesn't matter that the Eidolon's chart doesn't actually list them. As for the limbs issue...maybe there was another set from the base form? If so, then it adds up.
They specifically left that out of the chart though. It was in the playtest, there is no reason to take it out as it just leads to confusion. Every other class has their full BAB listed out in that chart, why should the Eidolon be different?
I think they took it out as an additional way to nerf the eidolon. And he doesn't get those extra attacks.
Incorrect. It specifies the number of natural attacks the eidolon may have. You can violate this using maufactured weapons if you have enough hands and multiweapon fighting.
You might want to check that, Jason said that this was an oversight and that he would keep an eye on it.
The intention was to limit the max attacks as per the chart regardless of Feats and Weapons.If you wish to break the stated limit on the chart, you are breaking the intended limitations of the class [Expect an invite to the secret club Summoner Munchkins. The first rule of the summoner munchkins club is that there are no summoner munchkins ;)]
Incorrect. It specifies the number of natural attacks the eidolon may have. You can violate this using maufactured weapons if you have enough hands and multiweapon fighting.You might want to check that, Jason said that this was an oversight and that he would keep an eye on it.
The intention was to limit the max attacks as per the chart regardless of Feats and Weapons.If you wish to break the stated limit on the chart, you are breaking the intended limitations of the class [Expect an invite to the secret club Summoner Munchkins. The first rule of the summoner munchkins club is that there are no summoner munchkins ;)]
Honestly it has been nerfed enough. That "oversight" should just stay as it is. I had my summoner before the APG came out, was satisfied with it. APG came out and i'm pretty bummed about the whole character now. As already stated above, he isn't really good at anything. Decent at some things, but not spectacular at anything.
I really don't like not being able to have Summon Monster and the Eidolon at the same time. They should of made the Summon Monster a standard action if they wanted to do that. But now both options arent' too appealing anymore. I'm going ot finish what I started but if he gets beat with the nerf bat more i'm definitely not playing another one again.
They specifically left that out of the chart though. It was in the playtest, there is no reason to take it out as it just leads to confusion.Well it does any way, if you want to overrule an universal rule you do so by being specific ... not by a circumstantial suggestion.
From my old 3e rules lawyer point of view, text over table :)
Oh no I want to believe that that is the case, but I can't ignore that change either. I mean the only reason to change it is to limit the attacks the Eidolon can get with normal weapons, otherwise they would have just left it as is.
The APG has brought up a lot of questions, hopefully they start getting answered soon.