In our Kingmaker campaign, my well meaning cleric got a mid-level NPC in a bit of a pickle with an evil creature who can hop planes bent on destroying everything she holds dear. So, here I was thinking that I'd stash him on a boat warded with the forbiddance spell to get him out of the castle and motivated to go on and do good things without her looking over his shoulder constantly... however, my GM is insisting that forbiddance only works on permanent structures. There is no permanency requirement written in the text of the spell, but... perhaps I am not reading the intent correctly.
In our Kingmaker campaign, my well meaning cleric got a mid-level NPC in a bit of a pickle with an evil creature who can hop planes bent on destroying everything she holds dear. So, here I was thinking that I'd stash him on a boat warded with the forbiddance spell to get him out of the castle and motivated to go on and do good things without her looking over his shoulder constantly... however, my GM is insisting that forbiddance only works on permanent structures. There is no permanency requirement written in the text of the spell, but... perhaps I am not reading the intent correctly.
That's a tough one, there is no permanence mentioned with regards to the structure, but there is no indication the spell can be moved either, the AO is 60'cube/level, if the boat moves does the spell effect move with it? not clear at all by RAW
Actually, it's pretty clear: The spell has an area. An area is always a fixed point. If it were centred on an object or creature, it would be an emanation. See antimagic field or magic circle against evil for such spells.
So no easy way out for your cleric - you'll have to help that NPC by killing the critter.
Actually, it's pretty clear: The spell has an area. An area is always a fixed point. If it were centred on an object or creature, it would be an emanation. See antimagic field or magic circle against evil for such spells.
So no easy way out for your cleric - you'll have to help that NPC by killing the critter.
An area is always a fixed point relative to something. If it was simply a "fixed point" no one would benefit as the planet would be miles away from said point a moment after the spell was cast.
As such, at the very least, fixed points are relative to the planet or plane they are cast on.
Of course, that also opens up the possibility that they might be relative to other things as well, like ships for example.
One of my favorite things to do is get a heaviliy magic'd up sailing ship, put a teleportation circle on the deck, and make it my mobile base of operations that is forever anchored to a non-mobile point.
In this way, my ship can stay perpetually out at sea and receive supplies, crew rotations, and reinforcements from the secure landbound point. I find this works especially well with the Leadership feat. Have 20 or so followers on ship at any given time, but should we come under attack, call for reinforcements in a matter of seconds.
If your GM had said no it's probably too late.
Personally, I'd say it would have to be a very large ship. And no fair letting the cubes spill off the sides and kill all those poor dolphins.
If your GM had said no it's probably too late.
Personally, I'd say it would have to be a very large ship. And no fair letting the cubes spill off the sides and kill all those poor dolphins.
If I were GM I wouldn't let any immobile spells anchor to a mobile object unless said object was large enough to contain the entire spell's area.
An area is always a fixed point relative to something. If it was simply a "fixed point" no one would benefit as the planet would be miles away from said point a moment after the spell was cast.
That just doesn't count. This is fantasy, not real life or SciFi.
If you must insist on ruining everything by bringing real life physics into the game (may all your future characters be killed by a physically correct fireballs), consider that magic doesn't care that the planet is supposed to be moving. The magical field, much like the magnetic field, is fixed, and everything is subject to that (I leave it to you whether the magical field flips around like the magnetic field or not)
As such, at the very least, fixed points are relative to the planet or plane they are cast on.Of course, that also opens up the possibility that they might be relative to other things as well, like ships for example.
No, it doesn't, because for all intents and purposes, worlds do not move in Pathfinder. All that planet stuff is interesting for stargazers, but magic doesn't care. It latches onto whatever keeps people from getting dizzy because the planet they're on revolves around itself all the time.
After all, when the spell description says that something is fixed from a point in space, it really means "a point in space relative to the planet's surface you're on", because otherwise those spells that are fixed on a certain point in space would not appear to be stationary. It's just so bothersome to write all that nonsense down just to accommodate some science freaks who can't leave their books behind and just accept that everything works by FM (frikkin' magic).
One of my favorite things to do is get a heaviliy magic'd up sailing ship, put a teleportation circle on the deck, and make it my mobile base of operations that is forever anchored to a non-mobile point.
The circle specifies a surface and has an effect. It's not an area. That means it can, in theory, be on a moving surface. Unless the GM forbids it.
In this way, my ship can stay perpetually out at sea and receive supplies
No, it can't. The circle is one-way. You cannot teleport to the circle, just from (to a fixed destination).
And the destination is set once and cannot be changed. Not every GM will allow "This ship" as a viable destination.
An area is always a fixed point relative to something. If it was simply a "fixed point" no one would benefit as the planet would be miles away from said point a moment after the spell was cast.
Universal stillpoint immovable rod, anyone?
So no easy way out for your cleric - you'll have to help that NPC by killing the critter.
I've already tried that, it ended up with the critter chucking the NPC at her head. Wizard spells bounce off him, and the paladin cannot hit him, either. Recurring villains... are recurring.
That just doesn't count. This is fantasy, not real life or SciFi.
If you must insist on ruining everything by bringing real life physics into the game (may all your future characters be killed by a physically correct fireballs), consider that magic doesn't care that the planet is supposed to be moving. The magical field, much like the magnetic field, is fixed, and everything is subject to that (I leave it to you whether the magical field flips around like the magnetic field or not)
All fantasy needs to be grounded in at least some realism, if only so those fantasizing can relate.
No, it doesn't, because for all intents and purposes, worlds do not move in Pathfinder. All that planet stuff is interesting for stargazers, but magic doesn't care. It latches onto whatever keeps people from getting dizzy because the planet they're on revolves around itself all the time.
Planets don't move in Pathfinder? I'd like to see you prove that.
After all, when the spell description says that something is fixed from a point in space, it really means "a point in space relative to the planet's surface you're on", because otherwise those spells that are fixed on a certain point in space would not appear to be stationary.
I agree with you on this point.
The circle specifies a surface and has an effect. It's not an area. That means it can, in theory, be on a moving surface. Unless the GM forbids it.
One of my favorite things to do is get a heaviliy magic'd up sailing ship, put a teleportation circle on the deck, and make it my mobile base of operations that is forever anchored to a non-mobile point.
Poor choice of wording on my part, nothing more.
In this way, my ship can stay perpetually out at sea and receive suppliesNo, it can't. The circle is one-way. You cannot teleport to the circle, just from (to a fixed destination).
And the destination is set once and cannot be changed. Not every GM will allow "This ship" as a viable destination.
Hm. I didn't realize that. I guess I will need two teleportation circles then.
I have not yet met a GM who would disallow it. I would announce my intent well before I had a ship, much less the circle, so the GM would have plenty of opportunity to say so if he wanted to rule differently.
Planets don't move in Pathfinder? I'd like to see you prove that.
Prove otherwise. People would fly off. And don't come to me with any of this psyence nonsense I keep hearing about. If there was anything to it, there would be a god of the stuff. But there isn't, and since there is a god of anything that is even remotely sensible, even stuff like pond scum, we can safely assume that psyence is not even so much marsh gas.
But let me prove it to you: Here, I activate my immovable rod. See how it doesn't move. And everyone who knows anything about magic knows that those are immovable (even people who don't know anything about magic can infer that from the name). If the planet was moving, the thing would move away from us.
QED, nothing moves here, immovable spells are really immovable, you don't get to make up nonsense like psyence to make spells like forbidden movable.
Now go away before I smite you with a fireball your ludicrous psyence says cannot exist because it has no fuel and all that.
I'm going to go activate some immovable rods at Lagrangian points now.
I still think that basic physics exist (moving planets, gravity, etc.). It just doesn't often come up in a magical world because people in said world have no knowledge of it (likely due to magic replacing their need for the knowledge science). That doesn't mean that the physics don't exist.
If a player tried to us physics to his advantage to create some broken combo, I would shoot it down (1) because its broken and (2) because he is likely metagaming and his character has no real knowledge of such physics. Again, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I personally believe magical effects and devices (like immobile spells or your immovable rod) function relative to the planet or plane they are on. Its a simple enough explanation that prevents a great deal of possible abuse (and nonsensical situations such as throwing a rock forward only to have it go backwards because of the spin of the planet).
I personally believe magical effects and devices (like immobile spells or your immovable rod) function relative to the planet or plane they are on.
Of course that's what happens, assuming the world is supposed to be moving in that world. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter, but if there are planetary movements like in our world, just assume that the gravitational field is the baseline.
It still means that immovable effects are for all intents and purposes immovable. Forbiddance might not "actually" be "immovable", as it moves with the planet, but that doesn't mean you can change the baseline and have a forbiddance that is "immovable relative to this ship".
And that's the whole point here. I don't care about the underlying physics or metaphysics or Things Just Happening, area effects are immovable, and immovable means it does not move just like a, say, tree, does not move around. If that means that by some definition, it isn't really immovable, then so be it, there is no loopholing by science.
Is it an outsider or has the extraplanar subtype? Simple. Protection from Evil. It won't stop any spell-like abilities from affecting the NPC, except any mind-control effects, but it can't physically harm it either.
You may have to resort to non-Pathfinder spells, as in WotC 3.5e spells. I'm sure the cleric can find something in the Spell Compendium that could help.