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Some say it's a standard action to throw a splash weapon, but in the core book it does not state anything but a ranged touch attack (that I have found). So if you are already holding two alchemist fires, can you throw them both in a single round as a full attack action?
Some say it's a standard action to throw a splash weapon, but in the core book it does not state anything but a ranged touch attack (that I have found). So if you are already holding two alchemist fires, can you throw them both in a single round as a full attack action?
I would say yes, but you would have to take the normal penalties for two weapon fighting.
There's two reasons you could probably do this if you already had them out.
1)There's no action listed to switch something from one hand to another. Considering you can draw a weapon mid charge, you should be able to just flick it from one hand to the other for free.
2) There's no mechanics for being left handed or right handed after 3.5. It seems all characters are ambidextrous. So as long as you're not taking extra attacks with a weapon you should be able to just throw left and right. You can after all hold two weapons in your hand and just attack with one with no penalty
You could also just get quick draw.
There's two reasons you could probably do this if you already had them out.
1)There's no action listed to switch something from one hand to another. Considering you can draw a weapon mid charge, you should be able to just flick it from one hand to the other for free.
If you have multiple attack because of BaB i guess.
2) There's no mechanics for being left handed or right handed after 3.5. It seems all characters are ambidextrous. So as long as you're not taking extra attacks with a weapon you should be able to just throw left and right. You can after all hold two weapons in your hand and just attack with one with no penalty
Then it falls under the two weapon fighting rules and full attack, which is what I am wondering about. Hope some of the authors see this.
You could also just get quick draw.
Quick Draw does not work with splash weapons. Unless some errata says otherwise.
Quick Draw does not work with splash weapons. Unless some errata says otherwise.
Is there anything that says that it doesn't work with splash weapons? If you can get a 6 foot long claymore off your back as a free action you should be able to get a vial out of a bandoleer as quickly.
Some say it's a standard action to throw a splash weapon, but in the core book it does not state anything but a ranged touch attack (that I have found). So if you are already holding two alchemist fires, can you throw them both in a single round as a full attack action?No.... throwing a splash weapon is a standard action which rules out any iterative attacks.
Could someone cite that?
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
i see ranged weapon ranged attack, i don't see anything about it being a different action than other sorts of attacks.
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Some say it's a standard action to throw a splash weapon, but in the core book it does not state anything but a ranged touch attack (that I have found). So if you are already holding two alchemist fires, can you throw them both in a single round as a full attack action?
Preparing to throw a splash weapon is a full round action (see the action table p. 183).
Throwing it is a ranged touch attack. Thrown ranged attacks can be the subject of iterative attacks due to BAB and/or two-weapon fighting. Touch attacks don't change this. If you have two of them prepared and in hand, you should be able to throw both of them with appropriate penalties as needed. Appropriate penalties would apply based on BAB and your GM's interpretation of TWF.
Quick draw a splash weapon is a matter of GM discretion, but you still need to prepare it as a full round action.
I know of nothing that says that throwing a splash weapon is, in itself, a standard action. Happy to be corrected with citations, not just assertations.
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Assertation to follow ;)
I've always used splash weapons (ranged touch attack) like any other thrown weapon attack (a Standard Action). Splash weapons are treated just like thrown weapons and the reference to a full round action to prepare a flask of oil (and the use of the word "except") makes me think those that are "ready to go" (Acid, Alchemists Fire) need no prep time.
From PRD:
THROW SPLASH WEAPON
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Oil: A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist's fire (see Special Substances and Items on Table: Goods and Services), except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.
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Assertation to follow ;)
Thanks for the humor. :)
I've always used splash weapons (ranged touch attack) like any other thrown weapon attack (a Standard Action). Splash weapons are treated just like thrown weapons and the reference to a full round action to prepare a flask of oil (and the use of the word "except") makes me think those that are "ready to go" (Acid, Alchemists Fire) need no prep time.
From PRD:
THROW SPLASH WEAPON
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target.Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Attacking with a thrown weapon is a standard action, called attack (ranged). So is attacking in melee with a sword, called attack (melee). A character with sufficient BAB may make iterative attacks as a full round action. A character may make multiple thrown weapon attacks via two-weapon fighting. A character with Quickdraw can make multiple thrown weapon attacks.
The typical limitation in thrown weapons is due to the move action to draw thrown weapons in contrast to the free action to draw ammunition. Quickdraw doesn't change the action for throwing the weapon; it changes the action for drawing the weapon.
The section you have bolded is a reference to weapons that are not designed to be thrown. It is distinguishing between throwing a mace and throwing a greatsword, for example. It is completely out of context to read this as thereby limiting designed thrown weapons and splash weapons to one per turn due to being a standard action. It isn't even clear to me that you could not throw multiple light or one-handed weapons via iterative attack or TWF; if the character can draw them for free or has them in hand...go to it.
Oil: A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist's fire (see Special Substances and Items on Table: Goods and Services), except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.
I agree that the full round prep should apply only to thrown weapons that require preparation, not for grenade type items.
The section you have bolded is a reference to weapons that are not designed to be thrown.
Does it? I think it could be read either way. I lean toward the way I read it of course since nowhere else in that paragraph does it explain what type of action it is to throw a ranged weapon. Throwing a light or one handed weapon (whether or not it is designed to be thrown) is normally a standard action.
Is a Dagger designed to be thrown? (It has a range entry so I would say yes) Can you throw 2 in a round because your BAB has hit +6/+1? No, you would throw it as a standard action.
This is all immaterial of course because I think we are actually in agreement over the general idea. I was refuting the full round action idea (though I didn't make my stance clear).
The General rule: It's a Standard Action to throw a light or 1 handed weapon.
The Exception: Quick draw allows you to draw your weapon as a free action and throw at your full normal rate of attacks (Full Round attack) as stated in the Feat. That would include Acid or Alchemists Fire (which os a ranged weapon, as stated above.
I don't think the rule (as written) for two-weapon fighting would let you throw two one handed or light weapons, but as a DM I would allow it.
Howie has it right. Your reading of the rule is a little off.
I've seen elsewhere that Quick Draw doesn't apply to alchemical items in PF, only weapons. So I don't think there is a way to attack with multiple acid flasks in a round without a DM ruling that you can either throw them with two weapon fighting or transfer from hand to hand as a free action.
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Does it? I think it could be read either way. I lean toward the way I read it of course since nowhere else in that paragraph does it explain what type of action it is to throw a ranged weapon. Throwing a light or one handed weapon (whether or not it is designed to be thrown) is normally a standard action.
By your view of this, you can never full attack in melee either. Page 182: "Making an attack is a standard action."
If the bolded text is not as I have indicated, what sort of action is it to throw a dart or javelin? Both weapons are ranged thrown weapons that are neither light, one-handed, nor two-handed. Where is the two-handed ranged weapon that takes a full round action to throw?
We are not in agreement. You think a character is limited to a single thrown weapon attack in a round. I do not share that position.
I've seen elsewhere that Quick Draw doesn't apply to alchemical items in PF, only weapons. So I don't think there is a way to attack with multiple acid flasks in a round without a DM ruling that you can either throw them with two weapon fighting or transfer from hand to hand as a free action.
Free actions (like 5-ft steps, quick drawing weapons, etc) can't be done in the midst of a full attack, as I understand it. The free action can be taken before or after the full round action, but not during unless otherwise stated. (Quick Draw does specifically state it allows itterative attacks with thrown weapons, but that alchemical items, scrolls, wands, etc cannotbe quick drawn.)
Free actions (like 5-ft steps, quick drawing weapons, etc) can't be done in the midst of a full attack, as I understand it. The free action can be taken before or after the full round action, but not during unless otherwise stated.
That's why I said "without a DM ruling", meaning you'd need a DM to rule in your favor. At that point, barring organized play, you can do whatever you want.
Btw, on the subject of free actions:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a
5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between
your attacks.
You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally.
I didn't see where switching a weapon or item from one hand to another counts, but your DM could rule it as a free action, which would allow multiple attacks based on BAB without TWF penalties.
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I've seen elsewhere that Quick Draw doesn't apply to alchemical items in PF, only weapons. So I don't think there is a way to attack with multiple acid flasks in a round without a DM ruling that you can either throw them with two weapon fighting or transfer from hand to hand as a free action.
Quickdraw applies to weapons. Splash weapons are ranged weapons by definition. That all said, I agree that there is confusion about whether you can quickdraw splash weapons.
I have often seen folks want to quick draw, or draw on the move, potions, scrolls, etc. Weapon like objects can be drawn in this manner, wands explicitly. I have seen GMs refuse drawing alchemist fire on the move because they were unwilling to distinguish alchemist fire from potions, and were certain potions could
Free actions (like 5-ft steps, quick drawing weapons, etc) can't be done in the midst of a full attack, as I understand it. The free action can be taken before or after the full round action, but not during unless otherwise stated. (Quick Draw does specifically state it allows itterative attacks with thrown weapons, but that alchemical items, scrolls, wands, etc cannotbe quick drawn.)
As a general rule, you can't interrupt your own actions. This is true. There are also exceptions. As Gauthok cited above, you can 5 foot step during a full attack. You can draw ammunition (a free action) during a full attack. You can draw a weapon during a short charge. In fact, as Gauthok cited above, "You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally." Not in addition to taking another action, but while taking another action.
Yeah, I was just going off of this thread:
Why is Quickdraw Only Usable with Weapons?
Seems like there is confusion about quickdrawing splash weapons. Are they weapons, or alchemical items? I think it should be allowed, so as I'm usually GM where I play it's all good. Hopefully when I get a chance to play my GM will remember to return the favor.
Its a full round action to PREPARE something to be thrown. If something doesn't need to be prepared (ie, the oil doesn't need to be lit on fire) its good to go. So if you have a vial of acid or holy water it doesn't need any preparation. I'm at a loss as to what rational there could be for pulling a vial and throwing it taking any longer than pulling a dagger and throwing it.
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You can draw weapons faster than most.Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Pretty much all splash weapons are alchemical items so can't be used with QD.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#full-attack-action
So yes, you can take the 5 foot step in between attacks.
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
--- there's no mention hint or implication that the action can't be done in the middle of another action.
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I'm not sure where you are going with this. The only sort of action you could do in the middle of a full attack action is a free action or a swift action, neither of which get that second flask in your hand.
OPs original post is asking about throwing two with them already in hand. That is settled by whether throwing a weapon is an attack (ranged) or a standard action of another sort. I think it's pretty clear that it is attack (ranged) and thus can be part of a full attack.
If you have both in hand to start, using a free action to move from one hand to the other is important for those who are in the "TWF penalties apply whenever using two hands, not just when taking additional attack" crowd.
Let's just say it isn't a good PFS candidate due to table variance. :D
Howie has it right. Your reading of the rule is a little off.
When you piss on your sock, what kind of action is it to throw it?
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Yeah, I was just going off of this thread:
Why is Quickdraw Only Usable with Weapons?
Seems like there is confusion about quickdrawing splash weapons. Are they weapons, or alchemical items? I think it should be allowed, so as I'm usually GM where I play it's all good. Hopefully when I get a chance to play my GM will remember to return the favor.
BAH!! Never happen :)
