I started with a simple dream... to make an unkillable monster.
So I thought, what happens if you give a troll immunity to fire and acid? How can I do this?
Well, it turns out that Brigh is the only Pathfinder deity with both Earth and Fire domains, so a 20th level cleric with both of those would be immune to fire and acid. (Oracle or Wizard levels could give you immunity to one, but not both.)
How do you get a troll that high, though? I mean, they only have a Wisdom of 9, not exactly good stats for a cleric. True, they get a boost from having class levels, but if you assign one of their +4s to Wisdom that still leaves them a bit short. (Plus, a cleric of the goddess of invention should have a higher Intelligence than 10, assuming you put the other +4 there.)
So then I figured, well, why not add the Half-Fiend Template, too? That'll allow us to bump up the appropriate stats, giving us a 17 in Wisdom and a 14 in Intelligence, plus any gains from leveling up to 26 hit dice.
So we have a Half-Fiend Troll Cleric of Brigh 20, with Earth and Fire domains. We give it Diehard for added maliciousness.
Here's my challenge: how do you kill it... and can you think of what could be added on to negate that method?
And yes, I know the Tarrasque already has this schtick, but the Troll would be more dangerous because it is more intelligent. :P Plus, there could be more than one.
And yes, I know the Tarrasque already has this schtick, but the Troll would be more dangerous because it is more intelligent. :P Plus, there could be more than one.
Get it to low hp... then disintegrate. no remains.
Alternately...CON Stat damage/drain below zero.
There's a feat called Searing Spell from 3.5 that allows fire spells to deal damage even to creatures immune to fire.
Hold Monster -> coup de grace.
Doesn't work. A creature with regeneration cannot die while its regeneration is active. Not "cannot die from hit point damage"; "cannot die".
Get it to low hp... then disintegrate. no remains.
Disintegrate only vaporizes the target if the spell reduces them to 0 or fewer hit points. Since it's doing nonlethal damage, it cannot reduce a troll to 0 or fewer hit points while its regeneration is active.
There's a feat called Searing Spell from 3.5 that allows fire spells to deal damage even to creatures immune to fire.
I remember that one. I think it wouldn't work if they were immune AND had the fire subtype however...
Trying to use Pathfinder only. Need to give it spell resistance somehow...
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Hold Monster -> coup de grace.Doesn't work. A creature with regeneration cannot die while its regeneration is active. Not "cannot die from hit point damage"; "cannot die".
But then again "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration." and CdG doesn't deal damage, it's something like death effect ... then again, I could be wrong. :)
Trying to use Pathfinder only. Need to give it spell resistance somehow...
As far as I know, there is no method to kill a creature with regeneration (fire, acid) that is immune to fire and acid if you're sticking just to Pathfinder, short of DM fiat/plot gimmicks. You can reduce it so far into the negatives that it'll take a million years to wake up, and you can dump it into the ocean so that it drowns and is reduced to -1 actual hit points, but it will not die until its regeneration is suppressed.
But then again "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration." and CdG doesn't deal damage, it's something like death effect ... then again, I could be wrong. :)Hold Monster -> coup de grace.Doesn't work. A creature with regeneration cannot die while its regeneration is active. Not "cannot die from hit point damage"; "cannot die".
Right. They aren't healed by regeneration. That's not in question; that clause is for things like negative levels and ability point damage/drain. The important part is at the start of the rules for regeneration:
they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). ... During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally.
Cannot die is pretty absolute.
everything can be killed, that's the problem
for your troll or even the tarrasque use a sphere of annihilation.
in diameter. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is
instantly sucked into the void and utterly destroyed. Only the
direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.
As any regeneration is not a direct intervention by a deity, and "character" can be extrapolated to other beings, everything will die.
If you want an invincible opponent you simply have to deny your party any means to kill the ennemy. Like give them immunity except for +5 weapons and make +4 the best weapons available. That's easier than your trick.
There is an awesome prestige class for 3.0, AEG Wilds, Sand-shaper, at 10th prestige lvl the mage, when killed by hp will turn to sand and reshape the next round. Let a contruct be that, and you are quite close to invincible.
Best of luck
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Has anyone else heard of a monster called a 'Nilbog'?
Apparently it reflected all damage done to it - but a simple Cure Light would drop it...
Anyone?
Yes, even you!
Hold Monster -> coup de grace.Doesn't work. A creature with regeneration cannot die while its regeneration is active. Not "cannot die from hit point damage"; "cannot die".
Get it to low hp... then disintegrate. no remains.Disintegrate only vaporizes the target if the spell reduces them to 0 or fewer hit points. Since it's doing nonlethal damage, it cannot reduce a troll to 0 or fewer hit points while its regeneration is active.
How is a disintegrate doing nonlethal damage?
I recently had a crag linnorm die from disintegration. Why wouldn't the crag linnorm be "entirely disintegrated, leaving behind
only a trace of fine dust" if they are "reduced to 0 or fewer
hit points by this spell" ?
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Hold Monster -> coup de grace.Doesn't work. A creature with regeneration cannot die while its regeneration is active. Not "cannot die from hit point damage"; "cannot die".
Get it to low hp... then disintegrate. no remains.Disintegrate only vaporizes the target if the spell reduces them to 0 or fewer hit points. Since it's doing nonlethal damage, it cannot reduce a troll to 0 or fewer hit points while its regeneration is active.How is a disintegrate doing nonlethal damage?
I recently had a crag linnorm die from disintegration. Why wouldn't the crag linnorm be "entirely disintegrated, leaving behind
only a trace of fine dust" if they are "reduced to 0 or fewer
hit points by this spell" ?
Because Zurai is thinking of 3.5 Regeneration, not Pathfinder regeneration...
Although strictly by RAW of Regeneration, I believe that it can recover from the dust.
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.....Has anyone else heard of a monster called a 'Nilbog'?
Apparently it reflected all damage done to it - but a simple Cure Light would drop it...
Anyone?
Yes, even you!
Fiend Folio.
1st edition.
Please leave it there.
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.....Has anyone else heard of a monster called a 'Nilbog'?
Apparently it reflected all damage done to it - but a simple Cure Light would drop it...
Anyone?
Yes, even you!
Fiend Folio.
1st edition.
Please leave it there.
:D Awww come on!
..they're just begging to become a playable race!
BEHOLDEN MY NILBOG MONK!
Could you kill it with a Wish? I am not familiar enough with the Wish spell to know if you can outright wish for a creature's death, but at the very least, wish that it no longer has Regeneration.
I started with a simple dream... to make an unkillable monster.
So I thought, what happens if you give a troll immunity to fire and acid? How can I do this?
Well, it turns out that Brigh is the only Pathfinder deity with both Earth and Fire domains, so a 20th level cleric with both of those would be immune to fire and acid. (Oracle or Wizard levels could give you immunity to one, but not both.)
How do you get a troll that high, though? I mean, they only have a Wisdom of 9, not exactly good stats for a cleric. True, they get a boost from having class levels, but if you assign one of their +4s to Wisdom that still leaves them a bit short. (Plus, a cleric of the goddess of invention should have a higher Intelligence than 10, assuming you put the other +4 there.)
So then I figured, well, why not add the Half-Fiend Template, too? That'll allow us to bump up the appropriate stats, giving us a 17 in Wisdom and a 14 in Intelligence, plus any gains from leveling up to 26 hit dice.
So we have a Half-Fiend Troll Cleric of Brigh 20, with Earth and Fire domains. We give it Diehard for added maliciousness.
Here's my challenge: how do you kill it... and can you think of what could be added on to negate that method?
Is there a point to this other than as an intellectual exercise? If you plan to use it in a game, then there is no need, if you are the DM. DMs can give any being plot immunity and make them unkillable. If you really want a being to be unkillable, don't bother to stat it up. If you give it stats, someone will eventually figure out a way to kill it. So, to quote my favorite Star Trek captain, don't waste a lot of time creating what you think is a perfect unkillable beast just "make it so".
All this assumes that you aren't actually intending to unleash an unkillable beast on your PCs in a fight, which would land you in the Player Horro Stories thread, and deservedly so.
Disintegrate only vaporizes the target if the spell reduces them to 0 or fewer hit points. Since it's doing nonlethal damage, it cannot reduce a troll to 0 or fewer hit points while its regeneration is active.
Creatures with regeneration take real damage in Pathfinder, not nonlethal damage. I made the same mistake not too long ago.
Here's my challenge: how do you kill it... and can you think of what could be added on to negate that method?
I'd just throw a baleful polymorph on the bugger, and if he loses his abilities, he becomes easy to kill.
A similar approach would be to use Magic Jar, take over his body, which will now be happy to burn (as long as you are not a cleric 20 with fire domain yourself).
Killing invincible trolls is easy! Simply slit the troll's throat (putting them to negative hit points), take off your sock, piss on it, jam it down their windpipe, and watch as the neck seals itself up, thereby locking the obstruction in their windpipe and blocking their airway.
You just suffocated an invincible troll in five easy steps.
And you GMs think you are so clever!:P
Disintegrate only vaporizes the target if the spell reduces them to 0 or fewer hit points. Since it's doing nonlethal damage, it cannot reduce a troll to 0 or fewer hit points while its regeneration is active.Creatures with regeneration take real damage in Pathfinder, not nonlethal damage. I made the same mistake not too long ago.
Yeah, you and Enlight_Bystand are correct. However, even then, disintegration still won't kill a regenerating creature. It'll reform out of the dust left behind.
I started with a simple dream... to make an unkillable monster.
So I thought, what happens if you give a troll immunity to fire and acid? How can I do this?
Well, it turns out that Brigh is the only Pathfinder deity with both Earth and Fire domains, so a 20th level cleric with both of those would be immune to fire and acid. (Oracle or Wizard levels could give you immunity to one, but not both.)
How do you get a troll that high, though? I mean, they only have a Wisdom of 9, not exactly good stats for a cleric. True, they get a boost from having class levels, but if you assign one of their +4s to Wisdom that still leaves them a bit short. (Plus, a cleric of the goddess of invention should have a higher Intelligence than 10, assuming you put the other +4 there.)
So then I figured, well, why not add the Half-Fiend Template, too? That'll allow us to bump up the appropriate stats, giving us a 17 in Wisdom and a 14 in Intelligence, plus any gains from leveling up to 26 hit dice.
So we have a Half-Fiend Troll Cleric of Brigh 20, with Earth and Fire domains. We give it Diehard for added maliciousness.
Here's my challenge: how do you kill it... and can you think of what could be added on to negate that method?
Is there a point to this other than as an intellectual exercise? If you plan to use it in a game, then there is no need, if you are the DM. DMs can give any being plot immunity and make them unkillable. If you really want a being to be unkillable, don't bother to stat it up. If you give it stats, someone will eventually figure out a way to kill it. So, to quote my favorite Star Trek captain, don't waste a lot of time creating what you think is a perfect unkillable beast just "make it so".
All this assumes that you aren't actually intending to unleash an unkillable beast on your PCs in a fight, which would land you in the Player Horro Stories thread, and deservedly so.
It pretty much is an intellectual exercise (unless my players REALLY piss me off).
Pissing on a sock wouldn't work, because the troll would just rip it out himself rather than suffocate. Beyond that... regenerations seems to make it nearly unkillable, as stated, since even if reduced to dust the largest bit will grow back. Regeneration doesn't recoup hp lost due to starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and doesn't work on creatures without a Con score, so those are probably the ways to go about this. (Does 0 Con = No Con score?) OTOH, a cleric troll could cast Create Food and Water, or make a ring of sustenance, so that's tougher than it sounds. Suffocation would require more than airway obstruction (as mentioned, it could tear its own throat out) - trapping in an airless environment would do it. Since clerics can cast spells, you'd also need a way to prevent teleporting.
Sphere of Annihilation is pretty much unstoppable, but as it is an artifact it is pretty much a quest in itself to get. (That gives me a campaign idea...) The Ant Swarm looks cool, but is it PF or 3.5? I'm unfamiliar with Devil-Bound. The antimagic field is a really good idea, though, and a cleric of Brigh could probably forge that into a magic item, activated at will.
So... Sphere of Annihilation, or Disjunction followed by other magic, or trapping it in an airless environment and cutting teleportation. Is there a magic item/template that makes breathing optional?
Yeah, you and Enlight_Bystand are correct. However, even then, disintegration still won't kill a regenerating creature. It'll reform out of the dust left behind.
If the SRD isn't wrong in it wording of Regeneration, this won't really save the troll.
While it cannot die, it can only reattach limps (and thereby reform), if they are nearby in the first hour of the seperation.So if you blast it into dust, or just simply chop it up, and disperse the remains, it might not be entirely dead, but it will remain only a speck of dust or perhaps a bodyless head.
Pissing on a sock wouldn't work, because the troll would just rip it out himself rather than suffocate.
Would it not then drown in all the blood flowing from its torn neck into its lungs before it regenerates?
In any case, you only need to destroy its lungs (and keep them destroyed) long enough for his remains to asphyxiate.
Regeneration doesn't heal damage done by suffocation, but with the new "cannot die" clause... Can suffocation still kill them if they "cannot die"?
Also, do they have to take fire damage for their regeneration to stop functioning?
"Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally."
This would seem to imply you only have to attack them with fire for the regeneration to turn off.
Can suffocation still kill them if they "cannot die"?
No. Absolutely nothing can kill a creature while it is regenerating. If no method exists to turn off the regeneration, the creature cannot be killed. It can certainly be defeated, even for very long periods of time (borrow a scythe and power attack coup de grace a troll for an hour or two straight and it'll be a long, long time recovering; put the remains in a weighted sack and throw them in the ocean and it'll perma-drown until fished out or until the ocean boils away), but not killed.
Um...drop a HUGE boulder on it, splat.
Ok, so maybe it wouldn't be dead per se, but he ain't going anywhere.
Just a quick question. How would ripping one's own throat out keep one from suffocating? Wouldnt being throatless make you suffocate more?
A simple Coup de Grace from a level 14 Inquisitor would end him forever. Makes you auto crit and exploit weakness says that if you crit you Defeat all DR and Stop all regeneration for a turn. Once again the Inquisitor wins the day with ease.
Can suffocation still kill them if they "cannot die"?No. Absolutely nothing can kill a creature while it is regenerating. If no method exists to turn off the regeneration, the creature cannot be killed. It can certainly be defeated, even for very long periods of time (borrow a scythe and power attack coup de grace a troll for an hour or two straight and it'll be a long, long time recovering; put the remains in a weighted sack and throw them in the ocean and it'll perma-drown until fished out or until the ocean boils away), but not killed.
Regeneration (Ex) A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0). Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, cause a creature's regeneration to stop functioning on the round following the attack. During this round, the creature does not heal any damage and can die normally. The creature's descriptive text describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration to cease functioning.Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage are not healed by regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts if they are brought together within 1 hour of severing. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
If the regeneration can't recover the hit points and they are lost then the creature is dead.
Creatures with regeneration can't be unkillable by any means save for their vulnerabilities. If that were true, they wouldn't die from old age and would overpopulate the world!!!
But thats just fluff. Continue the crunch battle.
P.S. He's a 20th level Cleric, just miracle him up some spell resistance, or DR/Tuna sandwich, or tinfoil hat of spell reflection. Whatever.
If the regeneration can't recover the hit points and they are lost then the creature is dead.My ruling would be that the creature is still technically 'alive' but requires more than time to bring it back - it requires some method of restoring the hit points lost to these methods. So, the remains of a troll dumped in a deep lake will get back up and be ready to rock if they are ever brought to the surface, the remains of a starved troll that has food pass its' lips will probably bite your arm off.
The distinction is mostly important if you're using spells to interact with the dead or trying to bring it back to life - these spells won't do anything useful to a Regenerating creature in this state.
Just because Regeneration can't bring back the hp doesn't mean normal natural healing can't. The Regeneration keeps it alive until natural healing recovers the hp.
To kill the troll, wish it to become undead. Undead have no Constitution score, which negates the regeneration ability, since a ceature must have a Con score to have regeneration as an ability.
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Beware of the crafty troll that manages to hide/implant both an iridescent and a clear spindle ioun stones inside his skull. If he has the wisdom to becomre a cleric, he has the wisdom to find magic bits that will negate his vulnerabilities. The lucky troll is the one that finds an ebon wayfinder and resonant stones to implant in his chest.
If the regeneration can't recover the hit points and they are lost then the creature is dead.
No. Regenerating creatures cannot die while the regeneration is active. They may or may not be able to regenerate the damage; that doesn't matter. A regenerating troll can be at -supergoogolplex damage and he still won't be dead, even if all of that damage is from starvation.
If the regeneration can't recover the hit points and they are lost then the creature is dead.No. Regenerating creatures cannot die while the regeneration is active. They may or may not be able to regenerate the damage; that doesn't matter. A regenerating troll can be at -supergoogolplex damage and he still won't be dead, even if all of that damage is from starvation.
Though it may be RAW, I seriously doubt that is RAI.
Though it may be RAW, I seriously doubt that is RAI.
That is difficult to determine. Some fluff makes trolls and other regeneraters as hard to kill (or harder) than just about anything else. And, why not? You don't always have to kill the opponent, anyway...just disable them so they are no longer a threat. And, once the Troll is unconscious and his minions are dispatched, it should be relatively simple to prevent the troll from threatening you again. At least in the near future...
Why would it not be RAI? Regeneration is a Su ability. It's magic. It's not reliant on physical needs like needing to eat. It magically sustains the creature even through being disintegrated! If it can return you from being turned to dust, simply not eating is a mere inconvenience.
Why would it not be RAI? Regeneration is a Su ability. It's magic. It's not reliant on physical needs like needing to eat. It magically sustains the creature even through being disintegrated! If it can return you from being turned to dust, simply not eating is a mere inconvenience.
OK; let me rephrase. Regeneration is an obviously magical ability that is only listed as Ex so that it isn't shut off in an anti-magic field (because that would make the Tarrasque way too easy to kill).
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OK; let me rephrase. Regeneration is an obviously magical ability that is only listed as Ex so that it isn't shut off in an anti-magic field (because that would make the Tarrasque way too easy to kill).
EX abilities are called out as being able to break physics or reality but still being considered "non-magic" for most purposes. I simply treat them as some kind of strong magic that is above mortal magic (possibly a go-between of divine power and mortal power).
Personally, I like the "wish it undead" solution. Very simple. Will the wish be modified and the troll comes back as a lich? Possible, but at least they are then killable (even if they're harder to defeat, at least you now only need to do it once).
In the Pathfinder Chronicles - Classic Monsters Revisited, they wrote up their own flavour text for some of the bestiary creatures (since that text wasn't carried over as OGL content).
For the trolls, in their Habitat and Society section, they talk about how their fear of weakness causes them to rarely reach old age (cull out their weak). They are always hungry (to fuel their regeneration, so it's a metabolism thing, hence Extraordinary).
It also says outright: "they can be killed by viruses that inhibit their regenerative abilities, and drowning, fire and acid puts an end to trolls in quick order. Starvation can also end a troll's life. A full-grown adult troll needs up to half its body weight in food every day. After only a few days without sufficient food, a troll's regenerative abilities cease to function."
It then goes on to say that weak or old trolls are dumped into a pit to starve, however more often they are simply drowned.
Here's the RAI if you wanted it.
In the Pathfinder Chronicles - Classic Monsters Revisited, they wrote up their own flavour text for some of the bestiary creatures (since that text wasn't carried over as OGL content).
For the trolls, in their Habitat and Society section, they talk about how their fear of weakness causes them to rarely reach old age (cull out their weak). They are always hungry (to fuel their regeneration, so it's a metabolism thing, hence Extraordinary).
It also says outright: "they can be killed by viruses that inhibit their regenerative abilities, and drowning, fire and acid puts an end to trolls in quick order. Starvation can also end a troll's life. A full-grown adult troll needs up to half its body weight in food every day. After only a few days without sufficient food, a troll's regenerative abilities cease to function."
It then goes on to say that weak or old trolls are dumped into a pit to starve, however more often they are simply drowned.
Here's the RAI if you wanted it.
Classic Monsters Revisited is a 3.5 product and uses 3.5 rules. Drowning and suffocation did indeed work in 3.5.