OK for a while now my group has been using a spell point system that I created and while it works and doesn't seem to cause any real problem it is extra work to keep track of spell points.
My spell point system I use hangs on to the Vancian spell slots for preparing spells but you only had to prepare spells once and then spend the points in order to cast the spell. This would not cause the prepared spell to vanish from memory. What this did was create a lot of flexibility for non-spontaneous casters but let spontaneous casters still be well spontaneous. Spell points were also based off the number of slots you had so spontaneous casters while they had a smaller selection had a lot more power.
The biggest problem however with my system I see coming up is when new classes or prestige classes that appear that have abilities that lets you do stuff for sacrificing spell slots or similar mechanics that deal with prepared slots. Now I am not saying that my old spell point system is incompatible with such mechanics but it does call for the need of more math.
Now the real reason my group uses my current system is because it is flexible and allows casters to be more prepared for unexpected results but at the cost of being more complicated however the Vancian system is simpler but less flexible.
But I have learned from the experience and I think I have come up with something new or better.
Flexible Vancian spell system
This system works similar to the old Vancian spell system but shares some elements from my Vancian spell point system.Preparing Spells
Spells are prepared like normal and is limited by the number of spell slots a character has however a spell needs only to prepare a spell once and casting the spell doesn't erase the spell from memory.Casting Spells
The number of spell slots a caster has not only dictates how many spells he can prep for that level but how many spells he can cast for that level.Example: William the Wonderful Wizard has three 6th level spell slots and only needs to prepare spells once so he preps: Chain Lighting, Eyebite, and forceful hand. Since he has three spell slots this also says that he can cast three 6th level spells that he has prepared that day in any combination as long as it doesn't exceed his allotment. For instance, he could cast chain lighting three times, twice plus eyebite, or cast each spell once for that day. So spell slots not only determine how many spells you can prep of a certain level but also determine how many spells you are allotted to cast for that day.
Sacrificing Lower Spell Allotments
In addition I am playing with the idea that you could sacrifice a number of lower level spell allotments to cast a higher level spell as long as the total spell levels add up to the spell being cast. However, this is a big advantage so perhaps in this case that higher level spell would be wiped from memory or would be uncastable for that day because of the strain.Example: William has cast all of his 6th level spell allotments for the day but he really needs an extra chain lighting to save the day. So he sacrifices one 1st level, two 2nd level, and one 3rd level spell allotment to fuel that extra fourth 6th level spell, but he can no longer cast that spell after that for that day.
Sorcerers and Oracles
Of course spontaneous casters do not need to prep spells so to make them desirable to play they need to be more flexible than before so they can us the Sacrificing Lower Spell Allotments option but with out penalty so they can sacrifice as much as they want as long as they have the power to do so.
My goal is to have system that stays closer to the core rules, kept simple but at the same time be flexible. I would really like some feedback on this, so please feel free to mention any potential problems or if you like it or not.
Vancian. [Sorry. Normally I wouldn't correct someone in a forum, but this time, I think it's a fair call.] :)
My spell point system I use hangs on to the Vatican spell slots...
My bad, luckily I was able to edit it in time. No need to apologize because I wasn't really sure on the spelling anyways. Plus I am still getting use to this new title it suddenly acquired. Darn fads, back in the day it was just the slot system.
So what do you think of my idea?
I am also thinking that perhaps the sacrificing lower level allotments could be used for meta magics as well.
Feedback is still very welcome.
I tweaked this some more and I really would love some feedback on this before I play test it tomorrow with my group.
Flexible Vancian spell system
This system is designed to work with existing vancian spell systems such as 3.X and Pathfinder. In this system the spell slots serve a dual function. The first function controls how many spells can be prepared for use for a day and the second function controls the allotment of spell levels that can be cast in a day. Lastly each spell allotment has a spell level value which may be used to fuel higher level spells. In essence this system is a hybrid vancian and spell point system.Preparing Spells
Spells are prepared normally like in traditional vancian systems but with one major difference is that a specific spell needs only to be prepared once for that day. If a spell is used for that day the caster can still remember how to cast the spell. The caster is still limited to the number of spells he can prep according to spell level and caster level.Spell Allotment and Spell Casting
The spell slots according to spell level and caster level not only dictate the number of spells that can be prepared but also dictates how many spells of a certain spell level that can be cast for that specific day.Example: William the Wonderful Wizard has three 6th level spell slots and only needs to prepare spells once so he preps: Chain Lighting, Eyebite, and forceful hand. Since he has three spell slots this also says that he can cast three 6th level spells that he has prepared that day in any combination as long as it doesn't exceed his daily allotment. For instance, he could cast chain lighting three times, twice plus eyebite, or cast each spell once for that day.
Spell Fueling
Each spell allotment a day has a value according to it’s spell level so a spell caster can transfer the appropriate number of lower level spell allotments to fuel a higher level spell that can no longer be cast that day because the caster used up those higher level allotments. The caster transfers the equivalent number of spell level allotments to fuel the spell in question. If the number of spell levels transferred results in spells above the spell level of the spell to be cast then this may result in mana burn. Lastly, this act pushes a non-spontaneous caster beyond the limits for that spell in question and so that spell can no longer be cast that day because it is to great of a strain.Example: William has cast all of his 6th level spell allotments for the day but he really needs an extra chain lighting to save the day. So he sacrifices one 1st level, two 2nd level, and one 3rd level spell allotment to fuel that extra fourth 6th level spell, but he can no longer cast that spell after that for that day.
Likewise higher level spell allotments may be used to fuel a lower level spell if those lower level spell allotments for the day have been used all up however this runs the serious risk of invoking mana burn as well.
Mana Burn
If a spell a spell caster is fueling a spell from different spell allotments then this runs the risk of mana burn if there is a difference in spell level. For every difference in spell level via spell fueling then the caster suffers 1d4 points of damage. This however can be avoided via the use of metamagic feats.Example: William has cast all of his 6th level spell allotments for the day but he really needs an extra chain lighting to save the day. He wants to fuel his chain lighting spell with some lower level allotments but there is a problem because he only has two 5th level spells left. So he sacrifices those two 5th level spells to fuel that extra fourth 6th level spell, but those two 5th level spells are the equivalent to a 10th level spell and since there is a difference of 4 spell levels he then takes 4d4 points of mana burn damage.
Metamagic
Spell allotments can also be used in the application of metamagic to boost a spell. The caster in question must possess the metamagic in question and have allotments left in order to fuel the powered up spell. This can be used to offset the effect of mana burn because it channels the magical energy in a appropriate manner however this could also cause mana burn as well.Sorcerers and Oracles
Since spontaneous casters do not need to prep spells so to make them desirable to play they need to be more flexible than before, therefore spontaneous casters can use the Spell Fueling option but without penalty so they can sacrifice as much as they want as long as they have the power to do so without losing the ability to cast a spell for that day.
I tweaked this some more and I really would love some feedback on this before I play test it tomorrow with my group.
Flexible Vancian spell system
Preparing Spells
Spell Allotment and Spell Casting
Spell Fueling
Mana Burn
Metamagic
Sorcerers and Oracles
This reads well; I might choose Fatigue rather than HP damage to accompany Mana Burn, either for a number of rounds or minutes (probably rounds) based on the difference in spell level. (In the given example, instead of 4d4 damage, 4 rounds or 4 minutes of fatigue.) As usual, fatigue from mana burn would stack to Exhaustion and unconsciousness.
Also, it would be a good thing to extend the casting time of a Spell Fueled casting to a full-round action, as with spontaneous casters and metamagic feats. (I don't know is this should apply to Prepared-casters only or to all casters... Probably only Prepared-casters.)
Just my two cents.
Based off some responses from RPG.net
What if I only allowed sorcerers the ability to fuel higher level spells and they are subject to the mana burn? This way the upgrade balances out between prepared casters and spontaneous casters.
BTW while this can expand a caster's ability in a tactical manner it also allows them to have more room for utility spells which is basically my intent for playing around with this. One of the biggest complaints that I have had with Vancian systems is that it can easily become inflexible which can get casters in trouble and can lead to in group arguments because the caster didn't prep a good spell for the occasion. Spell point systems I like but the thing that makes them bad is that they make sorcerers less powerful or not needed plus the math gets pretty annoying later on especially when more rules come in.
I like your basic idea. My only concern is using a combo of lower level slots to fuel higher level spells. If anything, I'd rather see being able to use up a higher level slot to cast a needed lower level spell, but the excess "levels" are then wasted. In other words, you can trade down, but not up. This gives the caster more versatility, but not increasing his power. The mana burn idea is an added layer of rules that doesn't really add anything IMO.
I like your basic idea. My only concern is using a combo of lower level slots to fuel higher level spells. If anything, I'd rather see being able to use up a higher level slot to cast a needed lower level spell, but the excess "levels" are then wasted. In other words, you can trade down, but not up. This gives the caster more versatility, but not increasing his power. The mana burn idea is an added layer of rules that doesn't really add anything IMO.
Not a bad idea but my thinking though is why would anyone really do it when at higher caster levels those lower level spells are what you have the most of.
Perhaps, have it that prepared casters cannot do the spell fuel thing but Spontaneous can spell fuel up and down but the lower level spells are only at half value when going up. The only problem is this adds more math and that is what I am trying to avoid.
The idea of mana burn is only there so that the caster in question has to think twice before engaging in such an act. That was my intention in adding such a feature.
Your system reads well and I can see the intent. However, as with most mana based casting systems, the math can quickly become overwhelming and that is to say nothing of the exponentially upward growing power curve of your casters as they progress.
Your intent seems to be making a system that is more flexible than the straight D&D/PF Vancian system, yet not as ridiculously overpowered as most full blown mana based systems. Your original post does that pretty well. However,the Spell Fueling theme, while introducing a little more flexibility has also introduced two negative things. A dramatic ability to cast far more high level spells if the caster chooses to focus on only his higher levels of power and an ever increasing difficulty in mathematically keeping track of your spell allotments. Really, you might as well give them a mana pool from which they may cast any spells they have memorized that day, it would be the same effect as what you have done with Spell Fueling, only with less math and no need for the mana burning rules. If Spell Allotments equal Spell Points the same value as the level of the spell and can be used to power higher levels spells, then what you really have is a mana pool, even if it works slightly different.
The spell allotments/spell points of a 17th level Wizard:
Level:0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots:4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1
Can quickly and devastatingly turn into this if he is casting from most powerful to least powerful in any given encounter:
Level:0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots:0/0/0/0/1/0/0/0/0/14
And with Sorcerers and their numerous spell allotments the effect would be even worse. That is still not taking into account bonus spell slots from high ability scores, or specialization in the case of Wizards.
The introduction of Mana Burn, while and interesting idea, does very little to dissuade players from abusing that power curve. A player who is decent at math and plans his characters spell costs carefully would almost never experience this punishment of miscalculation. Again, you might as well just give them a mana pool and say they can cast any of their memorized spells with the points.
Then you introduce the idea of prepared casters being unable to cast their high level spells for the remainder of the day after their first use of Spell Fueling due to Strain, a theme which is not present anywhere else in your system. This however, does not address the dramatic problem of Sorcerers abusing the power curve of this mana system, which would be far worse than the Wizards who do it. So this rule really only puts into effect a law that makes Sorcerers the ultimate class to be played in your game and an NPC enemy that a harsh DM could easily wipe out the entire party with. Now, if the Sorcerers similarly were rendered unable to use their high level spells after the first use of Spell Fueling, it would probably balance out fairly well. But then, what would be the point, you are putting so much work into creating a set of rules that only allows for one extra use of the spell.
Really what you have done with the addition of Spell Fueling is taken a fairly balanced and flexible system and brought in one idea to increase the flexibility of your system. Then you were forced to bring in two additional penalties in an attempt to re-balance what became horribly and irreversibly unbalance by the introduction of Spell Fueling. Once you allow your lower level spells to be sacrificed to fuel higher level spells you have unleashed the very same upward spiraling, exponentially growing power curve that all mana systems I have seen suffer from.
I think the best way I saw in this thread to keep some of the versatility that Spell Fueling brings without suffering the power curve it also adds would be the idea to allow Spell Fueling to function from high level spells down to low level spells, but not from low level to high level. Alternately, if you incorporate the rule that Spell Fueling, "burns you out" and you cant use that spell for the rest of the day, it could work but only if you use it for all casting classes and not just for Wizards.
You may also want to take a look at this magic system. It is a hybrid of Vancian and Mana based systems, just like what you are putting together. It uses some unique ideas I haven't seen any other system use. While I have not play tested it, reading through it I do think it is the most balanced mana type system I have seen so far. It might provide some inspiration.
A dramatic ability to cast far more high level spells if the caster chooses to focus on only his higher levels of power …
Agreed. To ItoSaithWebb: this is something you should avoid.
Giving a spell caster more versatility within a given spell level; an interesting idea.
Giving a spell caster the ability to cast more of his highest spell levels by sacrificing the lower ones; bad idea.
Also agree with the mana burn not being a big enough deterrent.
Your system reads well and I can see the intent. However, as with most mana based casting systems, the math can quickly become overwhelming and that is to say nothing of the exponentially upward growing power curve of your casters as they progress.
Your intent seems to be making a system that is more flexible than the straight D&D/PF Vancian system, yet not as ridiculously overpowered as most full blown mana based systems. Your original post does that pretty well. However,the Spell Fueling theme, while introducing a little more flexibility has also introduced two negative things. A dramatic ability to cast far more high level spells if the caster chooses to focus on only his higher levels of power and an ever increasing difficulty in mathematically keeping track of your spell allotments. Really, you might as well give them a mana pool from which they may cast any spells they have memorized that day, it would be the same effect as what you have done with Spell Fueling, only with less math and no need for the mana burning rules. If Spell Allotments equal Spell Points the same value as the level of the spell and can be used to power higher levels spells, then what you really have is a mana pool, even if it works slightly different.
The spell allotments/spell points of a 17th level Wizard:
Level:0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots:4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1Can quickly and devastatingly turn into this if he is casting from most powerful to least powerful in any given encounter:
Level:0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots:0/0/0/0/1/0/0/0/0/14
It wouldn't play out like that because after you fuel a higher level spell from lower level spells the spell is no longer usable because you are burned out on that spell. With what I proposed you could not get 14 9th level spells. My intent was that you could only fuel a spell once from other slots.
Just thinking here, but if you still want to explore using lower level slots to cast a higher level spell, what about introducing a chance of spell failure?
It wouldn't play out like that because after you fuel a higher level spell from lower level spells the spell is no longer usable because you are burned out on that spell. With what I proposed you could not get 14 9th level spells. My intent was that you could only fuel a spell once from other slots.
I realize that, which is why I wrote the six paragraphs following what you quoted; I probably should have included additional scales referencing "burn out" rules. Additionally you did say you were thinking of not limiting the Sorcerer with "burn out." Which would be a bad idea in my opinion. If the Wizard scale was that bad not including "burn out" think of how bad the Sorcerer's scale would be.
A 17th level Wizard would look like this, minus bonus spells:
Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/2/1
So with "burn out" it would look like this from top to bottom:
Level: 0/1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9
Slots: 0/0/1/0/0/0/6/6/4/2
Again this is without bonus spells based on stats. With bonus spells and specialist slots it would increase quite a bit. Now, this is obviously not as ugly as the scenario without "burn out" but it is still dramatically worse than a normal caster.
Now here is a 17th level Sorcerer. No bonus spells and Sorcerer doesn't reach 9th level spells until lvl 18:
Level: 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8
Slots: 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/4
Now with the migrating spell allotments and burn out. This is also accounting for the Sorcerer's limited list of spells known:
Level: 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8
Slots: 1/0/0/0/6/9/9/6
Again this is without bonus spells for high Charisma. Just think of how ugly this could get if you didn't limit the Sorcerers with burn out as well. Now, some of how this will actually play out will be based on what spells the Wizard has memorized and what spells are on the Sorcerer's known list. But you can see there is a dramatically increased capacity for destruction here and this is even including the "burn out" rule. It is possible that between poor planning, poor math, and your mana burn rules this might never happen, but chances are you will run into a player who is very good at planning and very good at math; and will thus be able to do the above while circumventing the dangers of mana burn.
::EDIT:: Don't get me wrong, I like what you are going for here. I have many times looked for and even tried to build my own mana based spell systems. I am rather tired of the Vancian system, primarily because I don't feel it accurately portrays what I think of when I envision a master of magic. I just haven't seen very many that were as easy to manage or as balanced as the D&D/PF Vancian system.
I am going to do a new write up later on when I have time but I would just like mentioned that Sorcerers don't get extra bonus spells do to high charisma but it does effect their slots.
Now don't get me wrong I like what everyone is bring to the table because it is giving me a lot of food for thought and I am taking it all seriously.
I would just like mentioned that Sorcerers don't get extra bonus spells do to high charisma but it does effect their slots.
I know Sorcerers don't get bonus spells known, but they do get bonus spells per day which equate to bonus spell allotments. My point was that the scale I presented did not take into account bonus spells per day for high Charisma. But it did take into account the limited spells known list. With additional spells per day the sorcerer I presented above still would not be able to cast any additional 8/7/6 level spells because of his limited spells known. But additional 5 level spells and below are possible if he had more spell allotments to sink into them.
I would just like mentioned that Sorcerers don't get extra bonus spells do to high charisma but it does effect their slots.I know Sorcerers don't get bonus spells known, but they do get bonus spells per day which equate to bonus spell allotments. My point was that the scale I presented did not take into account bonus spells per day for high Charisma. But it did take into account the limited spells known list. With additional spells per day the sorcerer I presented above still would not be able to cast any additional 8/7/6 level spells because of his limited spells known. But additional 5 level spells and below are possible if he had more spell allotments to sink into them.
Sorry about that I just misunderstood whether or not you where keeping that in mind. Yes you are correct though it would mean more spell allotments.
OK, I have given Doskious Steele suggestion a little more consideration about increased spell casting time when spell fueling.
So here is my take on it. The higher the level spell you are trying to fuel the longer it will take to fuel and then you have to deal with with normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 3rd level or lower spell takes one full round in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 4th to 6th level spell takes two full rounds in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 7th to 9th level spell takes three full rounds in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
This makes the cost of spell fueling very high because if a caster interrupted while spell fueling then those slot allocations are also lost as well as the spell.
Perhaps the extended times need to be reduced or played with a little more but I like that it would take a long time to do spell fueling and thus it makes non-caster ( our friends the melee types ) very useful in buying that time, like in football you need blockers to defend the quarterback to deliver the ball.
I think the old 3.broken rule for using lower spell slots for higher spells would be a safer way to go.
2 level 6 spells >> cast an extra 7th level spell.
Losing 2 6th level spells for one 7th level is going to be painful where as in your system it isn't!
The rule was the opposite. You could use higher level spell slots for lower level spells, not the other way around.I think the old 3.broken rule for using lower spell slots for higher spells would be a safer way to go.
2 level 6 spells >> cast an extra 7th level spell.
Losing 2 6th level spells for one 7th level is going to be painful where as in your system it isn't!
In Unearthed Arcana it is as I have suggested.
OK, I have given Doskious Steele suggestion a little more consideration about increased spell casting time when spell fueling.
So here is my take on it. The higher the level spell you are trying to fuel the longer it will take to fuel and then you have to deal with normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 3rd level or lower spell takes one full round in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 4th to 6th level spell takes two full rounds in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
To fuel a 7th to 9th level spell takes three full rounds in addition to the normal casting time of the spell.
This makes the cost of spell fueling very high because if a caster interrupted while spell fueling then those slot allocations are also lost as well as the spell.
Perhaps the extended times need to be reduced or played with a little more but I like that it would take a long time to do spell fueling and thus it makes non-caster ( our friends the melee types ) very useful in buying that time, like in football you need blockers to defend the quarterback to deliver the ball.
This all depends on what role you want Spell Fueling to play in your world. With this set of rules you have effectively eliminated Spell Fueling from Combat scenarios due to its high cost in casting time. The only time a Spell Fueled spell would be cast in Combat would be under absolute emergencies when that spell is just the only one that will do. However, it is still a perfectly viable option in any RP scenarios. If that is your goal this set of rules would probably enforce that nicely. IMO there would be no further need for Mana Burn or Burn Out if you just added this rule set.
OK for a while now my group has been using a spell point system that I created and while it works and doesn't seem to cause any real problem it is extra work to keep track of spell points.
My spell point system I use hangs on to the Vancian spell slots for preparing spells but you only had to prepare spells once and then spend the points in order to cast the spell. This would not cause the prepared spell to vanish from memory. What this did was create a lot of flexibility for non-spontaneous casters but let spontaneous casters still be well spontaneous. Spell points were also based off the number of slots you had so spontaneous casters while they had a smaller selection had a lot more power.
The biggest problem however with my system I see coming up is when new classes or prestige classes that appear that have abilities that lets you do stuff for sacrificing spell slots or similar mechanics that deal with prepared slots. Now I am not saying that my old spell point system is incompatible with such mechanics but it does call for the need of more math.
Now the real reason my group uses my current system is because it is flexible and allows casters to be more prepared for unexpected results but at the cost of being more complicated however the Vancian system is simpler but less flexible.
But I have learned from the experience and I think I have come up with something new or better.
Flexible Vancian spell system
...
This system works similar to the old Vancian spell system but shares some elements from my Vancian spell point system.Preparing Spells
Spells are prepared like normal and is limited by the number of spell slots a character has however a spell needs only to prepare a spell once and casting the spell doesn't erase the spell from memory.Casting Spells
The number of spell slots a caster has not only dictates how many spells he can prep for that level but how many spells he can cast for that level.Example: William the Wonderful Wizard has three 6th
I have been playing with a similar houserule in a Ptolus game I'm a part of that has kept the party wizards very, very happy.
In Unearthed Arcana it is as I have suggested.The rule was the opposite. You could use higher level spell slots for lower level spells, not the other way around.I think the old 3.broken rule for using lower spell slots for higher spells would be a safer way to go.
2 level 6 spells >> cast an extra 7th level spell.
Losing 2 6th level spells for one 7th level is going to be painful where as in your system it isn't!
Thanks, dood. I've been looking around for this optional rule for some time and I wasn't able to find it.
BTW, KICKASS avatar.