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There is a lot of discussion on the Tian Xia thread about adding a Pathfinder Ninja to the mix. But within that discussion, a debate arose around a very basic question.
What is a Ninja.
Many argued the Ninja is best served as a Rogue Variant class, some argued for a prestige class, and others argued we may not even need that as one could be created from existing rules.
I disagree. I would argue that not only should it be a new base class, but that WoTC made a mistake in making the Ninja based off of the Rogue rather than either the monk or fighter.
First, we should ask what is a Ninja. And for that I direct you to Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
That is not a rogue. That is an assassin/spy with limited magical abilities. That is a highly trained warrior, with skills passed down through families, trained for one purpose. A supernatural warrior, and so not a fighter. A lawless character, and so not a monk.
The closest cousin, I would say, would be the ranger, with his limited access to magic and wide skill set. But it is clearly not a ranger.
And so I would propose we think of creating the class that way. Full BaB, limited weapon training, monk-like armor training. Spells either on a path similar to the Ranger, or based of a ki pool like the monk allowing the ninja over time to be able to become invisible, fly, move as great speed, disguise themselves, possibly even shape-shift and sub-divide.
This can be done, without being over-powered, but while still being a Ninja. We should throw out the WoTC Ninja and start over. We should leave sneak attack to the rogue, and make the Ninja what it is, something separate. Something different. A stealth warrior who gains access to magic over time.
Be it following the Ki pool model or making the 4 level arcana full BAB class, either option would give you something far closer to the Ninja described above than what what thrown into Complete Adventurer.
I welcome thoughts, comments, and discussion.
Totally agree with you, so I'm doing my own ninja class based on Kumas Technique/Stance mechanics. It's gonna be up on this thread tomorrow.
A ninja should be roguish in nature but more combat oriented. From a game point of view I would equate it with a ranger. As far as abilities it depends on whether you like your ninjas to be supernatural like the one from Complete Adventurer or more naturally skilled like the one from Oriental Adventures/Rokugan(I can't remember which one).
I am making a ninja class also. The next version will be posted tonight or tomorrow.
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hensojutsu: the five ways of going
is something that's seemingly not developed by most iterations of the ninja I've seen in most rpg's besides the Bushido rpg.....
It goes without saying but to me its a rogue, nothing more. Add an archetype if you must but most "Ninja" abilities are already in the rogue class. It needs a few new rogue talents and maybe a more "mystic" PRC but no it is not a new class.
Nothing in that article screams "Mystic powers" it screams multi class or PRC. As I said before if you ask most people what is a Ninja, very, very few well says "Shapeshiter or spellcaster" they will describe what is more or less the rogue class.
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About 65% percent of them should rogues, infiltrator and spies. Maybe 20% should be Bards, spies of a clan but one who fill roles like seduction and distraction, who leave a door unlocked or reassure someone.
The other 15% of the clan are specialists. For example, Alchemist who make smoke bombs or Rangers who know the territory arouund a secret hideout, or a monk who instructs the others in unarmed combat.
I have a deep predjudice against 'ninja' classes, particularly full base classes. Maybe a kit or something like that but even a prestige class is excessive. Yes, some of that is a reaction to the Prestige class barf that was Wotc 3.5 splatbooks, but I think most of it is a genuine belief that less is more.
I'm happier with a ninja being a rogue and and a samurai being a fighter.
All the Best,
Kerney
This is what I asked myself when started trying to write up a class.
Ninjas do not have mystical powers (like a monk) but they are skilled at stealth, evasion, traps, diversions (a common "fire technique" was to start a fire some distance away from the target to lure away guards), and slipping away undetected. They might be assassins, spies, or saboteurs.
They are very much like a rogue. Skill monkeys with lots of focus on the theatrics of their image. A ninja RELIED on stories and fear from people who didn't understand them. The stories of their shapeshifting and control of the elements was what made them frightening, and they would use that to their advantage. Fear distorts perception...
Okay... I haven't watched Batman in a long time, I promise, but this really does make perfect sense. Fear has been a tactic for waging war for as long as wars have been fought, and the ninja capitalized on being (for all the rest of the people knew) "insubstantial."
Ranger has SOME abilities that would work very well with a Ninja, but I think the Rogue is a closer fit. That said, I would personally prefer to throw some of the realism aside and take a more mystical, fantasy approach to ninjas and give them some kind of ki pool. The monk has it, why not ninja? So long as the focus remains on ninja being utilitarian and highly tactical, I'm cool with them having whatever BAB/HD/etc.
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This is what I asked myself when started trying to write up a class.
Ninjas do not have mystical powers (like a monk) but they are skilled at stealth, evasion, traps, diversions (a common "fire technique" was to start a fire some distance away from the target to lure away guards), and slipping away undetected. They might be assassins, spies, or saboteurs.
They are very much like a rogue. Skill monkeys with lots of focus on the theatrics of their image. A ninja RELIED on stories and fear from people who didn't understand them. The stories of their shapeshifting and control of the elements was what made them frightening, and they would use that to their advantage. Fear distorts perception...
Okay... I haven't watched Batman in a long time, I promise, but this really does make perfect sense. Fear has been a tactic for waging war for as long as wars have been fought, and the ninja capitalized on being (for all the rest of the people knew) "insubstantial."
Ranger has SOME abilities that would work very well with a Ninja, but I think the Rogue is a closer fit. That said, I would personally prefer to throw some of the realism aside and take a more mystical, fantasy approach to ninjas and give them some kind of ki pool. The monk has it, why not ninja? So long as the focus remains on ninja being utilitarian and highly tactical, I'm cool with them having whatever BAB/HD/etc.
Depends on if you are going with the "real" ninja or the fantasy ninja. Fantasy ninjas could become invisible, fly, multiply, and change shape.
I think seekerofshadowlight is right about being able to make a non-magical ninja with existing classes. But if you are making a fantasy ninja with supernatural abilities, none of the existing classes cut it.
So, I'm reading a class mix here. Let us start with the ranger base. Throw out some of the lesser techs like track, wild empathy and combat style. Swap the Fort and Will Saves around. Replace martial weapons with Monk, keep simple. Go with the Monk's AC bonus over armor proficiencies. That should keep it realitively balanced. Swap around the spell list to include some illusions and such, and there you have it.
Other than that, if anyone is really interested, you should definetly check out the Shadow Assassin base20 class by Super Genius Games.
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Interesting. I've never really thought of Ninjas as a Full BAB class before... but a reduced weapons list, 4 levels of spells ala Paladin or Ranger with an Illusion, Necromancy, Divination, and Enchantment-heavy spell list might actually sort of work.
Quick and dirty, I threw together this spell list. Open to thoughts and discussion. This would follow the ranger/paladin spell progression, in addition to similar class skills. It allows you to get vanish by 5th level, which feels right to me, and gives most of the things that make ninjas feel ninja without being overpowered or adding blaster spells that don't fit.
Spells
1- Endure Elements , Obscuring Mist , True Strike , Memory Lapse ,Disguise Self ,Vanish , Cause Fear , Animate Rope , Expeditious Retreat , Feather Fall , Jump , Stone Fist ,Magic Weapon
2 - Protection from Arrows , Fog Cloud , Dust of Twilight , Detect Thoughts , See Invisibility ,Daze Monster , Darkness , Blur , Invisibility , Blindness/Deafness , False Life , Scare , Accelerate Poison , Alter Self ,Cat's Grace,Darkvision, Codespeak Glide , Knock , Levitate , Pyrotechnics ,Spider Climb,
3- Nondetection , Arcane Sight , Tongues , Heroism , Suggestion , Major Image , Blink , Gaseous Form , Fly , Haste , Keen Edge, Versatile Weapon.Water Breathing
4 - Stoneskin , Dimension Door , Solid Fog , Detect Scrying , Locate Creature , Scrying , Aura of the Unremarkable, Invisibility, Greater , Shadow Projection.
Let me know what you think.
I think ranger would do nicely to mimic a ninja and most of it's "mystical" abilities...
It's a wilderness warrior with limited spell casting, hell you can even get a wolf pet and make Galford from Samurai Showdown (lol)
They get great stealth, awesome tracking, disappearing in plain sight at higher levels...with getting a feat every other level and the alternate weapon fighting styles/archtypes in the APG, you can totally make a mystic ninja-like character. AND its all core rules. All RAW.
Please don't mistake this for ill will or smarm. I don't mean to dump on anyone's idea here, just addin' in my 2 cp. :P
I say straight up poison master rogue with an emphasis on acrobatics, fighting, poisons, and sneaking. At later levels they can multiclass into assassin, shadowdancer, and/or master spy.
Why on earth would we need a new separate class for such a simple concept? You can emulate EVERYTHING a ninja does in the current class system.
If I were making a ninja, I would personally give em' the improved/greater dirty trick feats. Instead of throwing pepper eggs in my enemy's face and blinding them (something they are known for according to Deadliest Warrior), my pepper eggs will also be laced with contact poison. :D
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Here is what I have so far. Looking for some help for some of the higher level skills, and maybe moving things around elsewhere.
Ranger/Paladin Caster (4 levels, starting at 4th) This spell list
Spells
1- Endure Elements , Obscuring Mist , True Strike , Memory Lapse ,Disguise Self ,Vanish , Cause Fear , Animate Rope , Expeditious Retreat , Feather Fall , Jump , Stone Fist ,Magic Weapon
2 - Protection from Arrows , Fog Cloud , Dust of Twilight , Detect Thoughts , See Invisibility ,Daze Monster , Darkness , Blur , Invisibility , Blindness/Deafness , False Life , Scare , Accelerate Poison , Alter Self ,Cat's Grace,Darkvision, Codespeak Glide , Knock , Levitate , Pyrotechnics ,Spider Climb,
3- Nondetection , Arcane Sight , Tongues , Heroism , Suggestion , Major Image , Blink , Gaseous Form , Fly , Haste , Keen Edge, Versatile Weapon.Water Breathing
4 - Stoneskin , Dimension Door , Solid Fog , Detect Scrying , Locate Creature , Scrying , Aura of the Unremarkable, Invisibility, Greater , Shadow Projection ,
Full BaB
1st - AC Bonus, poison use
2nd - Evasion
3rd - Fast movement
4th - High jump
5th - hidden weapons
6th - uncanny dodge
7th - Enhanced mobility
8th - Improved evasion
9th - Improved uncanny dodge
10th - hide in plain sight
11th - shadow jump 40 ft.
12th - (need idea)
13th - shadow jump 80 ft.
14th - (need idea)
15th - Shadow jump 160 ft
16th - (need idea)
17th - shadow jump 320 ft
18th - (need idea)
19th - (need idea)
20th - (need capstone)
Again, work in progress, but I think it's better to show work to get on the same page. I don't think this is overpowered, and I don't think you can make this with the existing classes.
I thought about adding the assassin death attack at 1/2 power, but I'm still on the fence about that.
Thoughts?
(Why does this remind me of a katana debate?)
We fiddle with the class "templates" (to the point of actually calling them such), and my players and I have made many characters out of the ranger. It's an excellent template for a character with all sorts of "goodies" - skills, magic, a critter, fighting power - so if that's what you're looking for in a ninja, go for it! That said, that's hardly the only interpretation of what a ninja "is." The Assassin works for some, as do various monk hybrids. Myself - I'd probably make a spy based on the rogue.
(*edit for clarity / spelling)
I'm working on a Rogue-like ninja base class that will have class abilities based on the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu formed by Masaaki Hatsumi and considered to be a legitimate heritage martial art form of ninjutsu. Ninja will gain "ninjutsu techniques" much the same as "rogue talents" but the abilities given by each will be vastly different.
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That is not a rogue. That is an assassin/spy with limited magical abilities.I'm sorry to contradict you so blatantly, but for my money a rogue IS an assassin/spy with limited magical abilities. Or at least, he can be.
And I once again refer you to Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
I can respect that position if you also believe that a Ranger is a fighter Druid/Variant, and a Paladin is a Fighter/Cleric Variant, and a Bard is a Rogue/Sorcerer Variant.
And you can feel free to house rule those. Me, I like variety.
Again wikipedia scream "I'm a rogue" Pathfinder rogues are much more a ninja then they are a thief.
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As I said above, I can respect that position if you also believe that a Ranger is a fighter Druid/Variant, and a Paladin is a Fighter/Cleric Variant, and a Bard is a Rogue/Sorcerer Variant.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue
seekerofshadowlight, I think everyone, on all of the boards fully understands you don't want any asian specific classes. The very simple solution is don't play them and house rule them out of your game.
They exist (for the most part horribly) in WoTC's 3.5 already.
You can define rogue however you like. The book says the following.
"Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace lives on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues."
And that, not surprisingly, sounds a lot like the Dictionary.com definition of Rogue.
So as I said, feel free to house rule it out and we can agree to disagree.
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Yeah, I'm kind of in the Rogue camp on this too.
I'm not really sure what part of, "Espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination" doesn't just scream rogue to people. It's a character concept at best anyway. You need ranks of skills like climb and stealth, not mystical Niruto powers (although there are games where that can be fun too.)
Now all that aside it's this whole association that seems to come in where if you have levels in a class, that defines your character. We've got so much customization already between stats, skills, traits, feats and multi-classing it's not really useful to define your character just by the class levels they have.
Ninja, Swashbuckler, and so on don't need to be classes, those are just character concepts.
so because the class is called a "rogue" even thought the mechanics of that class screams ninja and work for a ninja and depicts the ninja almost perfect it's not a ninja because the name is a rogue?
Sorry no, Ninja is the rogue class, nothing more.
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so because the class is called a "rogue" even thought the mechanics of that class screams ninja and work for a ninja and depicts the ninja almost perfect it's not a ninja because the name is a rogue?
Sorry no, Ninja is the rogue class, nothing more.
I have posted the description from the players handbook, and I have pointed you toward source material describing a ninja.
I don't agree with your opinion. You can repeat it ad nauseam on each board that lists ninja in it's thread and I will still not agree with your opinion. And that is ok, because everyone is entitled to their opinion.
At least that is my opinion. You may disagree.
And I have read both, all it did was cement even farther that a Ninja is simply a Rogue.
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Yeah, I'm kind of in the Rogue camp on this too.
I'm not really sure what part of, "Espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination" doesn't just scream rogue to people. It's a character concept at best anyway. You need ranks of skills like climb and stealth, not mystical Niruto powers (although there are games where that can be fun too.)
Now all that aside it's this whole association that seems to come in where if you have levels in a class, that defines your character. We've got so much customization already between stats, skills, traits, feats and multi-classing it's not really useful to define your character just by the class levels they have.
Ninja, Swashbuckler, and so on don't need to be classes, those are just character concepts.
It's the magical aspect where it becomes problematic. Do you believe a ninja class would included the supernatural powers some attribute to Ninjas? (For examples, see the wikipedia entry I've already posted too many times...)
This is where the debate seems to split. If your ninja is just a highly skilled assassin, sure you can multiclass him into assassin. If your ninja has supernatural powers, it doesn't work.
I'm not saying make a ninja a wizard. I'm saying Ranger is probably the closest thing we have to what a ninja is mechanically, and none of them approach the role-playing flavor.
This is where the debate seems to split. If your ninja is just a highly skilled assassin, sure you can multiclass him into assassin. If your ninja has supernatural powers, it doesn't work.
I'm not saying make a ninja a wizard. I'm saying Ranger is probably the closest thing we have to what a ninja is mechanically, and none of them approach the role-playing flavor.
There's that /IS/ again. Waving a Wiki around and saying "therefore, a ninja /IS/ a ranger" just isn't a good enough baseline assumption. If you want to talk about what YOU would like in a ninja, go ahead. But please stop saying (or at least implying) that this is the only way to work it based on your interpretation of ninja-lore as focused through a wiki. To twist a phrase, Your Ninja May Vary.
(Also, there's a rogue talent for magic, and if that's not enough, go shadowdancer or something, no? But, as I said above, Ranger is a fine "template" as well.)
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And I have read both, all it did was cement even farther that a Ninja is simply a Rogue.
Did a ninja kill your family?
Everyone on all the messageboards understands you don't want new asian classes and you think a rogue is a ninja.
I don't think you are trying to troll, but when you say the same thing over and over on a thread intended to discuss multiple views, it starts to feel like trolling.
If you want to post your rogue variant/multiclass that would be a ninja, that would be great. If you want to point out pros and cons on specific points of ideas people post, that would be great.
Posting over and over that a rogue is a ninja...we got it man...seekerofshadowlight doesn't want a ninja class.
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This is where the debate seems to split. If your ninja is just a highly skilled assassin, sure you can multiclass him into assassin. If your ninja has supernatural powers, it doesn't work.
I'm not saying make a ninja a wizard. I'm saying Ranger is probably the closest thing we have to what a ninja is mechanically, and none of them approach the role-playing flavor.
There's that /IS/ again. Waving a Wiki around and saying "therefore, a ninja /IS/ a ranger" just isn't a good enough baseline assumption. If you want to talk about what YOU would like in a ninja, go ahead. But please stop saying (or at least implying) that this is the only way to work it based on your interpretation of ninja-lore as focused through a wiki. To twist a phrase, Your Ninja May Vary.
(Also, there's a rogue talent for magic, and if that's not enough, go shadowdancer or something, no? But, as I said above, Ranger is a fine "template" as well.)
I posted, in this thread, my template. Which would be me talking about what I would like in a ninja...which is what you said I should do...
I think the underlying issue is you don't agree with my perception of a ninja. And I think the easiest way to correct this is for each of us to post what we are looking for in a ninja, be it class or template using existing materials.
I posted mine, I would be curious for you and anyone else to post theirs. Hence the title of the post ending in a question mark rather than an exclamation point.
If you want to have a thread discussing how we don't need a ninja class, feel free. That is what the add a thread button is for.
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Everyone on all the messageboards understands you don't want new asian classes and you think a rogue is a ninja.
I don't think you are trying to troll, but when you say the same thing over and over on a thread intended to discuss multiple views, it starts to feel like trolling.
Yes, because nobody in the pro-ninja class camp has made post after post about how it deserves to be it's own class because they wear a special black pajama outfit.
I am fine with a ninja archetype, but yeah if you need to pin it down to a single class hen it is a rogue. It is not I am anti-ninja or hate the idea of ninja's it is however I see zero need for a new class to do what the rogue does right now.
I would remove trapfinding, not sure what I would replace it with but most or all of the other rogue archetypes take that out as well. I do think it is a good reason to expand the rogue talents some more, add a few new ones as well
But yeah your right there is zero need for a new base class to be an Asian rogue. Or a subclass, there just isn't enough to change.
The common comcept of a ninja is not a shapeshifters or spell casters. But of sneaky bastards that spy and play assassin with "Ninja skills" which outside of Anima does not include magic powers for most people.
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I am fine with a ninja archetype, but yeah if you need to pin it down to a single class hen it is a rogue. It is not I am anti-ninja or hate the idea of ninja's it is however I see zero need for a new class to do what the rogue does right now.
I would remove trapfinding, not sure what I would replace it with but most or all of the other rogue archetypes take that out as well. I do think it is a good reason to expand the rogue talents some more, add a few new ones as well
But yeah your right there is zero need for a new base class to be an Asian rogue. Or a subclass, there just isn't enough to change.
The common comcept of a ninja is not a shapeshifters or spell casters. But of sneaky bastards that spy and play assassin with "Ninja skills" which outside of Anima does not include magic powers for most people.
See I think this is helpful feedback that I hope the developers read. I don't agree, but these are valid points that can help make clear what we are all looking for.
I don't understand why everyone seems to think that a Ninja = the Asian version of a Rogue. So there are/were no "Rogues" in Asia other than Ninjas? Heh. I guess children picking pockets on the street in Asia are just Ninjas in training?
Poking fun aside, I have no problem with "Ninja" being an archetype for the Rogue class, but it would need to be pretty detailed. Everyone seems to have a different idea of what a Ninja really is, so there would need to be lots of options.
edit: Personally I see Ninja's as more of magical/mystical Rogue rather than a warrior. I'd like to see something like a Rogue/Shadowdancer with different flavor options.
I think the underlying issue is you don't agree with my perception of a ninja.
No, I just misread your tone, apparently. (I think the ranger idea's not bad.) Sorry for that.
That said, I would personally prefer to throw some of the realism aside and take a more mystical, fantasy approach to ninjas and give them some kind of ki pool. The monk has it, why not ninja? So long as the focus remains on ninja being utilitarian and highly tactical, I'm cool with them having whatever BAB/HD/etc.Depends on if you are going with the "real" ninja or the fantasy ninja. Fantasy ninjas could become invisible, fly, multiply, and change shape.
I think seekerofshadowlight is right about being able to make a non-magical ninja with existing classes. But if you are making a fantasy ninja with supernatural abilities, none of the existing classes cut it.
I argued both ways and stated my preference for an in-game version. I do not want Naruto in my PF game. I like anime as much as the next geek, but I don't mash-up genres.
I suppose in stating a "preference" I don't make myself clear. I have stated in two separate threads seemingly contradictory ideas. Truly what I prefer is a balance. A ninja with mystical powers that she will use when her mundane tricks fail her, OR when close combat is inevitable and there is a chance to reinforce the image of the ninja. Image is what it's all about to me. People hear stories of ninjas and the stories should precede them. Mechanically, I don't want them to be anything BETTER than a rogue (the roles must be balanced, of course), but different, and more frightening.
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That said, I would personally prefer to throw some of the realism aside and take a more mystical, fantasy approach to ninjas and give them some kind of ki pool. The monk has it, why not ninja? So long as the focus remains on ninja being utilitarian and highly tactical, I'm cool with them having whatever BAB/HD/etc.Depends on if you are going with the "real" ninja or the fantasy ninja. Fantasy ninjas could become invisible, fly, multiply, and change shape.
I think seekerofshadowlight is right about being able to make a non-magical ninja with existing classes. But if you are making a fantasy ninja with supernatural abilities, none of the existing classes cut it.
I argued both ways and stated my preference for an in-game version. I do not want Naruto in my PF game. I like anime as much as the next geek, but I don't mash-up genres.
I suppose in stating a "preference" I don't make myself clear. I have stated in two separate threads seemingly contradictory ideas. Truly what I prefer is a balance. A ninja with mystical powers that she will use when her mundane tricks fail her, OR when close combat is inevitable and there is a chance to reinforce the image of the ninja. Image is what it's all about to me. People hear stories of ninjas and the stories should precede them. Mechanically, I don't want them to be anything BETTER than a rogue (the roles must be balanced, of course), but different, and more frightening.
I couldn't agree more. I hated the Book of 9 Swords and cringed when my DM encouraged me to look into that kind of stuff for my monk.
I want the dark, sneaky, invisible, wall climbing, shuirken throwing, ninja.
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Example ninja at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. 20 point buy. Created with Hero Lab.
Ninja 1
Male Human Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 1
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +0
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +1d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 16
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Augmented Disguise, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +9, Bluff +4, Climb +6, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +7, Fly +5, Heal +1, Intimidate +4, Perception +4, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +7, Survival +1
Ninja 5
Male Human Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 5
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 10 (+4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 33 (5d8+5)
Fort +2, Ref +8, Will +1
Defensive Abilities Evasion
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Special Attacks Scout's Charge, Sneak Attack +3d6
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 20
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Dodge, Mobility, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Sneaky Vagabond
Traits Augmented Disguise, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +8, Climb +10, Disguise +8, Escape Artist +12, Fly +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +6, Perception +8, Perform: Dance +5, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +12, Survival +5 Modifiers Quick Disguise, Second Chance (1/day)
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex)
Ninja 10
Male Human Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 5 Shadowdancer 5
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 10 (+4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 63 (10d8+10)
Fort +4, Ref +11, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Defensive Roll (1/day), Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14)
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Special Attacks Scout's Charge, Sneak Attack +3d6
Spell-Like Abilities Shadow Call (1/day), Shadow Illusion (2/day)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Dodge, Mobility, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Stealth, Sneaky Vagabond, Spring Attack, Stealthy
Traits Augmented Disguise, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +9, Climb +15, Disguise +13, Escape Artist +21, Fly +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +9, Perception +13, Perform: Dance +5, Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +27, Survival +6 Modifiers Quick Disguise, Second Chance (1/day)
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Hide in Plain Sight (Su), Shadow Jump (40'/day) (Su), Summon Shadow (Su)
Ninja 15
Male Human Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 8 Shadowdancer 7
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +18
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 10 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 93 (15d8+15)
Fort +5, Ref +15, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Defensive Roll (1/day), Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=19)
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OFFENSE
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Spd 35 ft.
Special Attacks Lasting Poison, Scout's Charge, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +4d6
Spell-Like Abilities Shadow Call (2/day), Shadow Illusion (3/day)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +13; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Dodge, Fleet, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Skill Focus: Stealth, Sneaky Vagabond, Spring Attack, Stealthy
Traits Augmented Disguise, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +25, Bluff +13, Climb +20, Disguise +18, Escape Artist +27, Fly +7, Heal +9, Intimidate +12, Perception +18, Perform: Dance +5, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +23, Stealth +33, Survival +9 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day), Expert Leaper, Quick Disguise, Second Chance (2/day)
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Hide in Plain Sight (Su), Shadow Jump (80'/day) (Su), Slippery Mind (Ex), Summon Shadow (Su)
Ninja 20
Male Human Rogue (Acrobat, Scout) 10 Shadowdancer 10
CN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +11; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +23
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 10 (+5 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 123 (20d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +17, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Defensive Roll (1/day), Evasion, Improved Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=24), Shadow Master
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OFFENSE
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Spd 35 ft.
Special Attacks Lasting Poison, Scout's Charge, Shadow Master, Skirmisher, Sneak Attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities Shadow Call (4/day), Shadow Illusion (4/day), Shadow Power (2/day)
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +14; CMB +16; CMD 32
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Deadly Aim -4/+8, Dodge, Fleet, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Shadow Strike, Skill Focus: Stealth, Sneaky Vagabond, Spring Attack, Stealthy
Traits Augmented Disguise, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +30, Bluff +15, Climb +25, Disguise +23, Escape Artist +32, Fly +7, Heal +12, Intimidate +15, Perception +23, Perform: Dance +5, Sense Motive +23, Sleight of Hand +28, Stealth +38, Survival +12 Modifiers Camoflage (1/day), Expert Leaper, Quick Disguise, Second Chance (3/day), Stealthy Sniper
SQ Fast Stealth (Ex), Hide in Plain Sight (Su), Shadow Jump (320'/day) (Su), Slippery Mind (Ex), Summon Shadow (Su), Surprise Attacks (Ex)
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Yeah, ninjas still seem very rogue to me. They already have UMD as a skill - they can fake being a spellcaster. But if that bothers you or doesn't quite hit the spot...
A ranger could do the job just fine. Make an Urban Ranger variant and alter all the hippy nature spells to elemental or covert ops spells. A ranger is basically special ops already.
A bard could also the job really well, oddly enough. You're not going to make much use of your bard song, but you'll make great use of the spell casting and the training in war that bards get. Bards have some very good ninja spells.
Even barbarians would do well as ninjas, with their decent skills/level, their ability to hit and run, and their limited supernatural abilities. Add in stealth as a class skill and you're set.
Heck, you could make a cleric ninja. Give him the trickery domain and maybe one of the elements. Armor him lightly and make liberal use of invisibility and silence.
This could actually make a fun campaign. "Everybody is a ninja". I guess ninja just seems more like a character or play style than a base class.
Yeah, ninjas still seem very rogue to me. They already have UMD as a skill - they can fake being a spellcaster.
Especially with their rogue talents, you could take Vanish as a spell-like ability. Ninja vanish! :P
Yep with Vanish ya got your invisible Ninja by level four.
In my opinion, a 3.5 rogue/assassin would be very close to a 'fantasy ninja' with spellcasting, sneak attack, and assassination abilities. Of course the problem is that pathfinder took away the assassin class' spells and now there isn't any real substitute for them without weakening the character's close combat and sneak attack capabilities.
That is because the red mantis killed them and took it.
Example ninja at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. 20 point buy. Created with Hero Lab.
Not bad!
I sympathize with the people who say it can be done with existing classes, but then I also look at a lot of weird powers that might make a good class or class options. I think the anime Ninja Scroll is the best example. Any one of their weird powers would be appropriate in a high-magic world like Golarion... and making them all multiclassed loses something.
We're not talking historical ninjas. We're talking ninjas in a world with demons running around and stuff. Historical ninjas can ABSOLUTELY be addressed with the rogue class, but if that's all Paizo's going to do, I will yawn and go play a game that DOES have flashy eastern magic and mythology in full force.
I sympathize with the people who say it can be done with existing classes, but then I also look at a lot of weird powers that might make a good class or class options. I think the anime Ninja Scroll is the best example. Any one of their weird powers would be appropriate in a high-magic world like Golarion... and making them all multiclassed loses something.
We're not talking historical ninjas. We're talking ninjas in a world with demons running around and stuff. Historical ninjas can ABSOLUTELY be addressed with the rogue class, but if that's all Paizo's going to do, I will yawn and go play a game that DOES have flashy eastern magic and mythology in full force.
Does anyone remember the Oriental Adventures supplement for 3.0? (Lot5R, I think.) There was a ninja there, yes? Is it salvageable or useless?
After some thought, I don't think the basic "ninja" should have a heck of a lot of magic attached. I know there are branches of ninja lore that include magic, but by building it into the basic "ninja" class, it says that ALL ninjas have magic about them - this would force the folks that want basically non-magical ninjas into magic use. Even if you're using the ranger as a base, something like rogue talents would be a good replacement and (with some magical options) could probably satisfy both sides.
So, a ranger template:
Assuming the Samurai is a fighter or cavalier build, should the ninja really have full BAB? And since BAB is now married to hit dice, we get a ninja with a d10 hit die. So, is this an armored ninja (which starts to get odd thematically) or an unarmored ninja with a d10 hit die (which is nearly as odd mechanically)?
Once you dial back the hit die, you end up with 3/4 BAB ... which is slowly bringing me back to the rogue. I'm not a big lover of "party roles," but if the ninja gets too "fighter-thief" on us, he's in danger of doing nothing well, or just being straight-up too good.
Ninja cliches - which DO include mobs of them getting cut down in straight-up fights - support something much closer to a rogue - and, since the rogue is already such a mutable class, a separate ninja class raises redundancy questions.
But to stick with the Ranger (which, despite the above, I do like), my best guess is d10, full BAB, no (or possibly light) armor, talents for spells (fair exchange tbd), and probably some sort of mobility schtick, perhaps a la shadow dancer? Makes even a first-level ninja a fair bit different from the "mob of attacking conspicuous ninjas that die easily" in, say, daredevil or some bits of ninja scroll, but it could be an interesting character of a sort we haven't quite seen yet.
Does anyone remember the Oriental Adventures supplement for 3.0? (Lot5R, I think.) There was a ninja there, yes? Is it salvageable or useless?
I just pulled the book off the shelf behind me, and ... <unimpressed sigh> ... this guy's a slightly altered rogue. You could probably house rule him into existence with a few new rogue talents, honestly. If you really wanted to. (Ninja Dodge? Really?)
For all my thinking that a non-magical ninja is best, I understand the hunger for a magic'd up version. I think a Prestige Class would be the best route for that.
<What? Did nobody tell me it's saturday night? -Puts ROKUGAN back on shelf- Backs away from computer...>