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Wouldn't determining the intent of the rules be as simple as finding an official stat block of someone wielding a double weapon?
The street thug on page 265 of the GameMastery Guide, for example, has 16 Strength and clearly deals 1d6+3 with one end of his quarterstaff and 1d6+1 with the other end.
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Wouldn't determining the intent of the rules be as simple as finding an official stat block of someone wielding a double weapon?
The street thug on page 265 of the GameMastery Guide, for example, has 16 Strength and clearly deals 1d6+3 with one end of his quarterstaff and 1d6+1 with the other end.
LOL, I just saw that and was about to post it! Darn you and your fast fingers! >:P
The first part of the two handed weapon series Two-Handed Fighting (Part One) actually has wording that is much more clear. They do not limit description to attack 'rolls' and discuss actually fighting with each combat style.
Using a double weapon.Some weapons have two business ends. When you use both ends of a double weapon, you fight exactly as though you're wielding a one-handed weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your off hand -- think of a double weapon as having a primary end and an off-hand end. Most double weapons require an exotic weapon proficiency, but the extra investment can prove worthwhile; see Part Three.
The pdf also defines "one handed" "light" and "off hand" weapons in meaningful association.
I'm not sure that this is fair. Perhaps two handing a weapon deserves more damage but it is certainly clear. Whatever pathfinder intended they could have been much clearer drawing on this pdf or making a clear change.
This is satisfyingly clear. I'm not quibbling that it is 3.5.
The entire benefit of double weapons is that you get a higher damage die with you secondary weapon and the ability to apply weapon focus/ weapon specialization/ imp crit to a single weapon. This is a substantial benefit in and of itself especially since access to some double weapons are accomplished via racial weapon familiarity.
Allowing it to also provide thf damage bonuses to twf would ridiculous.
Wouldn't determining the intent of the rules be as simple as finding an official stat block of someone wielding a double weapon?
The street thug on page 265 of the GameMastery Guide, for example, has 16 Strength and clearly deals 1d6+3 with one end of his quarterstaff and 1d6+1 with the other end.
I thought of that as soon as the thread began, but I could not think of any official stat blocks so I had to go to Rule of the Game.
Vuron, that seems like a reasonable argument.
I don't know that its much of a difference though because most dual wielders I've seen use the same weapon in both hands (gaining the weapon focus/specialization) advantage and I don't think the double weapons do huge amounts of normal damage.
Still a good point. Thank you.
Also thanks to everyone of FAQed this thread.
Yeah, the mechanical effect isn't that massive. For the most part you are getting d8/d8 instead of d6/d6 for twinned short swords when you fight two weapon. The end result is an increase in expected damage of 1 per attack.
Considering that the double weapons aren't finesse weapons and that most twf builds that aren't rangers require a high dex, it's often a better decision to go with 2 light finesse weapons rather than a Exotic Double weapon even if you get proficiency for free.
Basically though it just highlights why EWP is such a marginal feat.
Personally I find the weapon to also be very interesting for TWF builds because of their ability to do the two-handed damage on a standard attack, in addition to the other benefits mentioned. If you have 17 dex and str to spare, it could be a worthy investment. Also you could just get the dex using magic items.
The interpretation of 1.5/1 can only be arrived at by pointing out that the rule is not clearly stated.
Actually, my interpretation was 1.5/1.5, based on the logic that the only stated difference between double weapons and other two-handed weapons is that they can be used for TWF and are treated as a one-handed and light weapon for the purposes of TWF attack penalties, period.
As stated before, I agree that the logic for them being 1.0/0.5 is sound, and would fit game balance. It's simply not what the rules read however. This was clarified in 3.5 as others have now also pointed out, and my interpretation is wrong according to that. It doesn't change what's written though, so now that we have the ability to flag topics for FAQ follow-up in Paizo... well hopefully it'll get clarified/corrected.
Edit to add:
Wouldn't determining the intent of the rules be as simple as finding an official stat block of someone wielding a double weapon?
The street thug on page 265 of the GameMastery Guide, for example, has 16 Strength and clearly deals 1d6+3 with one end of his quarterstaff and 1d6+1 with the other end.
It could show intent, or it could show the author making the same assumptions we've all been making. It doesn't change what's written, which the Gamemastery Guide contradicts. So one or the other should be corrected/clarified.
A double weapon is not a two handed weapon. It's more like two weapons which are joined at the hilt. When using such a weapon both hands are spread a part with the force of each hand directed at a different end of the double weapon. A two handed weapon such as a greatsword or martially wielded bastard sword brings both hands close together each contributing it's torque to the same end of the blade.A wielder of a double weapon can use to wield ONE end of the weapon in that way as opposed to using it normally. In which case he is striking with only ONE end of of the blade, very much like using a longsword two handed style.
When you strike with a two handed weapon, both hands are committed for the entire combat phase.
That is one way of looking at it.
The double weapons in question are two handed weapons first.
First off there is the argument that we are not talking about real weapons but classed weapons. This is convention and rule design not physics.
Secondly, if you appeal to physics. From the center of a double weapon you still benefit from two hands, either to control and propel momentum or to punch and pull (at the same time) to create more controlled force. A blade pushed into the foe with one hand can be pulled across the foe with the other and the movement of the shoulders. A weapon driven into the foe can have its attacking end pushed up by the rear hand.
My reading of how the rules were made (Pure conjecture) is that someone made the rules for fighting with two short swords and then simply added double weapons so they wouldn't be left out. I don't ascribe great realism to the example. It seems more convenient than accurate.
The two strongest arguments against the sense of the current example is that 1) it provides no synergy for two hands working together and 2) that a double weapon may not even be wielded that way (with one hand) and stay a double weapon.
As you say, 2 hands are committed for the whole round. That to me makes it a 2 handed weapon attacking. Pretending to better accuracy when so many other elements are completely fantastical or vague seems to needlessly nerf the weapon design.
A double weapon is not a two handed weapon.
Actually, it almost always is. It just isn't treated like a two-handed weapon when you decide to wield both ends, rather than just one.
It's more like two weapons which are joined at the hilt. When using such a weapon both hands are spread a part with the force of each hand directed at a different end of the double weapon. A two handed weapon such as a greatsword or martially wielded bastard sword brings both hands close together each contributing it's torque to the same end of the blade.
A wielder of a double weapon can use to wield ONE end of the weapon in that way as opposed to using it normally. In which case he is striking with only ONE end of of the blade, very much like using a longsword two handed style.
Sounds like you got it right.
You can not do two weapon fighting with a great sword and armor spikes, unless you're wearing spikes on a third hand and have the appropriate feat... i.e. Multi-Attack. When you strike with a two handed weapon, both hands are committed for the entire combat phase.
Bullhocky!
There is nothing preventing you from dual-wielding a greatsword (or similar two-handed weapon) and armor spikes (or similar off-hand weapon that doesn't actually use a hand).
Off-hand is a misnomer, just like breath weapon, and you've fallen for the same trap that many before you have. Off-hand doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hands and a breath weapon doesn't normally have anything to do with breathing.
Why would damage rolls be different?Because all 'treat as one-handed and light weapons' notes in the rules refer to attack penalties only. There's nothing that I've been able to find that says that a double weapon ceases to become a two-handed weapon for damage purposes when TWF. Yes, it makes sense that it would be the case. But it's not stated anywhere.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Again, the `bonus attacks` from 2WF are all explicitly `off-hand` attacks. It doesn`t matter if you are making them with a weapon wielded 2-Handed because off-hand attacks explicitly direct you to ¨add ONLY 1/2 your STR bonus¨. If it didn`t say only one might think it multiplicatively stacked with the 2-Handed bonus, but it DOES say ¨only¨. Ravingdork`s explanation that `off-hand` is really more of a virtual weapon slot is helpful here.
Since other than the off-hand rule, 2WF rules don`t themselves deal with damage (for main hand)... Besides the fact that all associations between double weapon main-hand and 1-handed weapon are associated with attack penalties, nothing that treats it as 1-Handed `in general` (which would have taken fewer words to say). ..So there is nothing to change the damage mod of the main-hand per RAW, which still qualifies for the 2-Handed STR bonus since you are meeting the pre-req for that, namely wielding the weapon in 2-hands. I.e., 1.5 / 0.5 is what you get by RAW. I`m not sure why that seems to be ignored by everybody wanting to argue for either extreme.
As I said, trying to use this as a way for super (full attack) damage is not that effective, since you need to split STR/DEX stats, invest in second weapon enchantments (+real secondary weapon), invest in 2WF and EWP Feats, etc. Why bother, when better base damage and better crit range is available as `simple` weapons usable 2-Handed (or 1-Handed, i.e. when Grappled or you need a shield)?
James Jacobs when this came up before made known that he prefers 1.0/0.5 (without addressing the actual RAW justification for that) but also said he doesn`t really like Double Weapons. If you`re going to have double weapons in the game, they might as well be worth the XWP and other investments they need. 1.5/0.5 isn`t really unbalanced considering all those other factors, and that those extra hits (especially 2nd iteratives) aren`t going to be hitting as often, or confirming crits as often.
If Paizo really thinks it`s important and justified than double weapon main hands have less bonus STR damage, on par with 1-handed weapons (even though double weapons have inferior damage/crit to 1-handed weapons), they need to Errata the rules to actually reflect that because the RAW doesn`t say anything like that currently.
Interestingly, I personally have other beefs with the double weapon rules, namely that they ARE usable with 1 hand only (as a single weapon), which I believe doesn`t match that the entire balance of the weapon is weighted to be used in two hands... If anything, I believe they should only be usable 1-handed with a -4 attack penalty. I also believe that weapons held in two hands (double or not) should have a bonus vs. Disarm, +4 seems reasonable. But none of that is RAW.
Mostly +1 :)
Again, the `bonus attacks` from 2WF are all explicitly `off-hand` attacks. It doesn`t matter if you are making them with a weapon wielded 2-Handed because off-hand attacks explicitly direct you to ¨add ONLY 1/2 your STR bonus¨. If it didn`t say only one might think it multiplicatively stacked with the 2-Handed bonus, but it DOES say ¨only¨. Ravingdork`s explanation that `off-hand` is really more of a virtual weapon slot is helpful here.
Again, read the parts about double-weapons. It explicitly states that you treat one end as a light off-hand weapon for attack penalties only. It also does not state to change your damage modifier, thus it stays at 1.5 for wielding it with two hands.
As I said, trying to use this as a way for super (full attack) damage is not that effective, since you need to split STR/DEX stats,...
Unless you're a Ranger, since you can get the TWF feats without needing to meet the Dex prerequisites. In fact, based on TreatMonk's Ranger guide, this may be the only way for TWF Rangers to be decent. His guide uses the normal assumption of 1.0/0.5, and rates TWF Rangers as a bad choice. With a focus on Strength and dealing 1.5x with each hit instead, they might be able to keep up. Maybe. Everything else you said about requiring more resources still stands however.
Raving is correct in regards to combining iteratives with a two-handed weapon and unarmed/natural weapon attacks (or weapon assisted unarmed attacks) i.e. armor spikes, spiked boots.
The Monk with a quarterstaff can hit with his quarterstaff for all his flurry of misses or can mix up quarterstaff strikes (two-handed weapon) with his unarmed strikes (feet, knee, headbutts, etc).
By a similar token a Two-handed fighter can choose to strike with his big killstick for his normal iterative attacks and then do a twf strike with a boot to head or a armor spike shoulder drop (Preferably with some sort of wrestling sound effects like Woooo!). The secondary attack with the armor spikes is light (so basically -2 to primary/ -2 to secondary if you have the twf) and does -50% bonus damage. Further you need to enchant the spikes to get cool effects (flaming spiked armor is a cool gimmick).
Basically you get one weapon that does +50% bonus damage and one weapon that does -50% bonus damage. For the most part I rarely see it happen in actual play (because people with TWF generally prefer to go with twinned weapons (to get double benefit form weapon focus, imp crit, etc) and most THF builds prefer pumping strength and using power attack to boost damage).
In rare cases where your iteratives are likely to hit even with power attack the THF fighter who does TWF with armor spikes can be a very potent damage dealer but it's pretty much an extensive investment for what is likely an edge case (although it does look pretty cool).
A more common scenario are the times when a monster with natural weaponry and multiattack wants to combine natural weaponry attacks (no iteratives) with unarmed strikes or armored spike strikes (iteratives allowed).
Again, the `bonus attacks` from 2WF are all explicitly `off-hand` attacks. It doesn`t matter if you are making them with a weapon wielded 2-Handed because off-hand attacks explicitly direct you to ¨add ONLY 1/2 your STR bonus¨. If it didn`t say only one might think it multiplicatively stacked with the 2-Handed bonus, but it DOES say ¨only¨. Ravingdork`s explanation that `off-hand` is really more of a virtual weapon slot is helpful here.Again, read the parts about double-weapons. It explicitly states that you treat one end as a light off-hand weapon for attack penalties only. It also does not state to change your damage modifier, thus it stays at 1.5 for wielding it with two hands.
It doesn`t need to, this doesn`t depend on the Double Weapon Rules,
because how you`re wielding an off-hand attack/weapon doesn`t matter for it`s STR mod.You are allowed to make an off-hand attack with the Double Weapon.
If you are making extra attacks as per 2WF, those are `off hand attacks`.
Making an off-hand attack inherently and explicitly means you use `only 0.5 STR mod`.
The 2-Handed modifiers still exist, but are over-ridden by the exclusive `only` wording.
There is no wording specifying damage mods for main-hand so main-hand defaults to how you actually are wielding the weapon. But 0.5 STR on off-hand is an inherent part of the additional off-hand attacks that you get from 2WF, so if you get the extra attacks, you get that STR mod.
Unless you're a Ranger, since you can get the TWF feats without needing to meet the Dex prerequisites. In fact, based on TreatMonk's Ranger guide, this may be the only way for TWF Rangers to be decent.
Sure, except there is no `mobile 2WF` option for Rangers, so if they move, they lose all such benefits. Better to use a high dmg/crit 2Handed weapon (by class or by wielding) in conjunction with UAS/Armor Spikes.
If you are using a two handed weapon, your "off hand" has been committed in making the strike with that greatsword.
Your quote just doesn`t support that, it supports that you can only have one `off hand weapon`, but it says nothing about wielding a weapon 2-Handed `dedicating` your off-hand attack. Likewise, there`s no reason you can`t 2WF with Armor Spikes (or Unarmed Strike kicks) and a 1-Handed scimitar while holding a Metamagic Rod which you aren`t using for attacks. There is no special wording that makes wielding a weapon with 2 hands different than that situation.
A 4 armed creature DOESN`T need Multiattack to 2WF with 2x Greatswords, they use normal 2WF rules for manufactured weapons and gain 1.5/0.5 STR because off-hand attacks always use 0.5 even if wielded in 2 Hands, in this case NECESSARY to wield the Greatsword as off hand.
...Because the Greatsword + Armor Spike / UAS types don`t want the competition?
Your quote just doesn`t support that, it supports that you can only have one `off hand weapon`, but it says nothing about wielding a weapon 2-Handed `dedicating` your off-hand attack. Likewise, there`s no reason you can`t 2WF with Armor Spikes (or Unarmed Strike kicks) and a 1-Handed scimitar while holding a Metamagic Rod which you aren`t using for attacks. There is no special wording that makes wielding a weapon with 2 hands different than that situation.
This.
Unless you're a Ranger, since you can get the TWF feats without needing to meet the Dex prerequisites. In fact, based on TreatMonk's Ranger guide, this may be the only way for TWF Rangers to be decent.Sure, except there is no `mobile 2WF` option for Rangers, so if they move, they lose all such benefits. Better to use a high dmg/crit 2Handed weapon (by class or by wielding) in conjunction with UAS/Armor Spikes.
Which is why I only quoted the bit about requiring both STR & DEX being required to make a double-weapon TWF effective. :)
The problem with the THF (1.5 x damage) + off-hand is pretty simple to resolve.
Think of it this way. In order to get 1.5x damage with a weapon you need to be using it with two hands (think longsword held in two hands). When you do this you can't attack with an your other hand (because it's being used to power the strike), however you can do an unarmed strike with another limb.
So what happens when you use TWF, you do your iteratives with one hand (x1.0 damage bonus) and you do any secondary attacks at (x0.5 damage bonus).
So how does that work with the double weapons? Well when you take a single attack it makes sense to choke up and do 1.5 x with one strike. However when you do TWF you can't choke up on the weapon and get a secondary iterative because you now no longer have a free hand to power the weapon (they are both being used to power the primary attack).
So you can either do normal iteratives (THF, no TWF) with the 2 bladed sword at 1.5 or you can do normal iteratives + TWF secondaries at x1.0 and x0.5 or you can do normal iteratives (THF, no TWF) with the two-bladed sword and TWF secondary attacks with unarmed strikes or armor spike strikes.
It's a flexible weapon but honestly I find it to be pretty Meh. When I have someone who really wants to play Darth Maul in a game I pretty much just say go with the racial double and if they are human I spot them a free EWP of their choice.
Bullhocky!There is nothing preventing you from dual-wielding a greatsword (or similar two-handed weapon) and armor spikes (or similar off-hand weapon that doesn't actually use a hand).
Off-hand is a misnomer, just like breath weapon, and you've fallen for the same trap that many before you have. Off-hand doesn't necessarily have anything to do with hands and a breath weapon doesn't normally have anything to do with breathing.
From the description in the PSRD
Armor Spikes
Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
If you are using a two handed weapon, your "off hand" has been committed in making the strike with that greatsword.
There is nothing in the description of the greatsword that indicates that it's an off-hand weapon unless you are doing some 3.x epic greatsword monkey grip oversized two weapon fighting thing;)
The PSRD exclusive refers to the inability of a twf to do his iterative attacks with his primary weapon his twf secondary attacks with a off-hand weapon and have additional attacks with armor spikes.
It also has the rather pointless effect of preventing people from doing stuff like mixing secondary bonus attacks (from TWF or other) between an off-hand weapon and armored spikes. You can however freely mix up secondary attacks that are off-hand weapon and unarmed strikes.
This stuff has been handled extensively by Skip Williams in the 3.x rules of the games and sage advice columns. I'm surprised so many people still have issues with it.
There is nothing in the description of the greatsword that indicates that it's an off-hand weapon unless you are doing some 3.x epic greatsword monkey grip oversized two weapon fighting thing;)
`offhand weapon` is not a class of weapons. it is any weapon used to deliver `offhand attacks`, which doesn`t need correspond to actual hands, as seen by UAS and Armor Spikes. There is no limitation in 2WF on what weapons you can use to 2WF with - I gave the example of Greatsword in main-hand and UAS as off-hand, but IF YOU WANTED TO you could use UAS as main-hand and Greatsword (wielded 2-Handed) in off-hand though that would be pointless since you lose the 2-Handed damage bonus and have worse penalties since Greatsword`s aren`t light (which screws even 4 armed wierdos who want to 2WF with 2 Greatsword).
The 2WF rules don`t care how the main and off-hand are wielded, they only give you lesser penalties if the off-hand is a light-weapon (or considered to be ala double weapons). If the off-hand is one handed or two handed wielded doesn`t affect 2WF, since 2WF never gives you penalties for `1Handed weapon in each hand` and `1Handed weapon in main hand, Light weapon in off hand` but gives you penalties for `Normal´ (doesn`t matter how weapons are wielded as long as you can wield them) and `Off-Hand is Light Weapon`.
`offhand weapon` is not a class of weapons. it is any weapon used to deliver `offhand attacks`, which doesn`t need correspond to actual hands, as seen by UAS and Armor Spikes. There is no limitation in 2WF on what weapons you can use to 2WF with - I gave the example of Greatsword in main-hand and UAS as off-hand, but IF YOU WANTED TO you could use UAS as main-hand and Greatsword (wielded 2-Handed) in off-hand though that would be pointless since you lose the 2-Handed damage bonus and have worse penalties since Greatsword`s aren`t light (which screws even 4 armed wierdos who want to 2WF with 2 Greatsword).
The 2WF rules don`t care how the main and off-hand are wielded, they only give you lesser penalties if the off-hand is a light-weapon (or considered to be ala double weapons). If the off-hand is one handed or two handed wielded doesn`t affect 2WF, since 2WF never gives you penalties for `1Handed weapon in each hand` and `1Handed weapon in main hand, Light weapon in off hand` but gives you penalties for `Normal´ (doesn`t matter how weapons are wielded as long as you can wield them) and `Off-Hand is Light Weapon`.
I'm not sure I'm grokking your point. I was referring to the claim that LazarX was making that holding a two-handed weapon prevents you from taking secondary attacks allocated from two-weapon fighting. That's categorically not true, you can use off-hand secondary strikes from a body part that isn't being allocated for holding a weapon (for most people this would be an unarmed strike that does nonlethal damage and gives up an AoO).
For instance a monk using the temple sword (the only monk weapon that is one-handed thus easiest for illustrating my point) can do his iterative attacks with the temple sword (using both hands so he can get x1.5 damage) and still mix in unarmed strikes with his feet if there is some compelling reason for him to do so.
By a similar token the BSF with a greatsword can mix a twf armor spike strike with his knee, foot or shoulder in addition to his x1.5 damage greatsword attack.
Armor spikes explcitly limits the BSF with greatsword and armor spikes from mixing in an unarmed strike in place of the armor spike strike but outside of some weird edge cases (THF cleric with armor spikes and also holding a touch inflict spell) but those are really marginal situations that only rarely come up.
...I think we`re on the same page... :-)
Armor Spikes can only be used in two ways. Either with an a hand attack or in a grapple.
If you are in a grapple, you are not fighting with your greatsword. If you have your two meaty hands on your great sword, you do not have an off hand free for wielding armor spikes or anything else. Only a nitpicker or a rules cheesemonkey would insist that a rule would have to spell out the obvious.
You are still confusing off-hand for meaning an actual hand, which it clearly doesn't.
What's more, the...
...clearly say you can use armor spikes as a normal martial weapon, as an off-hand attack, or in a grapple (that's at least three ways).
In short, you're mistaken.
EDIT: And the greatsword in your example is not an offhand weapon. It is your primary weapon. The armor spikes are your off-hand weapon.
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Armor Spikes can only be used in two ways. Either with an a hand attack or in a grapple.
If you are in a grapple, you are not fighting with your greatsword. If you have your two meaty hands on your great sword, you do not have an off hand free for wielding armor spikes or anything else. Only a nitpicker or a rules cheesemonkey would insist that a rule would have to spell out the obvious.
You are still confusing off-hand for meaning an actual hand, which it clearly doesn't.
What's more, the...
** spoiler omitted **
...clearly say you can use armor spikes as a normal martial weapon, as an off-hand attack, or in a grapple (that's at least three ways).
In short, you're mistaken.
EDIT: And the greatsword in your example is not an offhand weapon. It is your primary weapon. The armor spikes are your off-hand weapon.
No he isn't. Sometimes the "offhand" is the other hand, but not always.
If you swing a two handed weapon you get 1.5 x your strength bonus, and it seems the intent was to use up the offhand attack.
If you use TWF you get 1.0 +.05 which equals=1.5. This also gives you the benefit of swinging with two weapons(getting base damage form a weapon twice). One of the balancers to this was the penalty to TWF, which is not perfect since two-handed weapons normally out perform TWF, but for certain builds such as sneak attack builds or crit based builds with a high crit range weapon, the TWF method is better.
No he isn't. Sometimes the "offhand" is the other hand, but not always.
There is no off-hand "hand," just an off-hand "weapon" (which may also be an unarmed strike).
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No he isn't. Sometimes the "offhand" is the other hand, but not always.There is no off-hand "hand," just an off-hand "weapon" (which may also be an unarmed strike).
Well, sort of. Off-hand does sometimes refer to a hand, such as with a double weapon that requires two hands to wield without penalty even if you're going to make a single attack due to its size. The off-hand, in this case, must come from a hand.
However, I agree with you about the armor spikes. Those are "off-hand" and can be delivered as an attack alongside a two-handed weapon.
No he isn't. Sometimes the "offhand" is the other hand, but not always.There is no off-hand "hand," just an off-hand "weapon" (which may also be an unarmed strike).
You knew what I meant, but if you want it detailed sometimes the offhand attack is made using the other hand in some form or fashion), but not always.
Well, sort of. Off-hand does sometimes refer to a hand, such as with a double weapon that requires two hands to wield without penalty even if you're going to make a single attack due to its size. The off-hand, in this case, must come from a hand.
Or it can come from the off-hand end of the weapon. :P
Sorry. Nit-picky semantics.
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Well, sort of. Off-hand does sometimes refer to a hand, such as with a double weapon that requires two hands to wield without penalty even if you're going to make a single attack due to its size. The off-hand, in this case, must come from a hand.Or it can come from the off-hand end of the weapon. :P
Sorry. Nit-picky semantics.
Yeah, I know how it works. I'm just equating wielding in this case with needing a hand for the off-handedness of the double weapon. Semantics schmantics. :P
They don't call you Ravingdork for nothing! Hehehehe.