I had an interesting situation occur the other night, and I was wondering what the correct rules interpretation should be. The party was being strafed by a huge sized dragon who was flying about 40' above the ground. The wizard summoned a medium sized air elemental next to the dragon and it immediately tried to grapple the dragon. No big deal, except the elemental rolled a '20' and successfully grappled the dragon!
That's when the argument started.
Here are the various interpretations:
1.) You can't fly while grappled. On the start of the dragon's turn, both the dragon and the elemental start falling. The rules say you can't move while grappled, and you also can't do anything that requires 2 hands. That seems to support the falling theory.
1a.) Does the dragon get a chance to break free of the grapple before he falls to the ground, or does the grapple check to break free happen after the fall?
2.) Even though the dragon was grappled and can't move, he can still use his wings to stay in place. The rules say you can't do anything that requires 2 hands, but nothing about wings. If the elemental succeeded in pinning the dragon then they would both fall.
2a.) Perhaps the dragon would need to make a Fly check (with grapple penalties to Dex) to Hover to stay aloft while grappled? The rules don't seem to say anything about this, but that would be a reasonable house rule.
3.) Does the fact that the dragon is 2 sizes larger than the elemental have any bearing? It's sorta like a person wrestling with a helicopter. You could see a person making it hard for the helicopter to move around, but envisioning it stalling out is difficult.
4.) Does the fact that the dragon is way stronger than the elemental have any bearing? The dragon can certainly keep the elemental aloft, but the elemental can't carry the dragon. (Hmm, it obviously does because if the elemental could have carried the dragon, they would not be falling.)
For the record, I finessed this at the table by ruling that the dragon would get a grapple check before falling. He easily broke free and made a move action away from the elemental. Of course, if the dragon had rolled a '1', then the argument would have continued...
I'm interested in finding if any of the rules experts on this board have any suggestions or other interpretations.
Thanks!
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By RAW a halfling can grapple the dragon's tail and pin it. To me this is just insane. :)
I provide a bonus to the larger creature *as well as* a bonus to the heavier creature. The bonus is based on the number of times that a creature's weight exceeds an attacker's max load. So if said halfling has a max load of 500 lbs and the dragon weighed 20,000 lbs, the bonus would be +2 for being over 1000 lbs, another +2 for being over 2000 lbs, another +2 for being over 4000 lbs, another +2 for being over 8000 lbs, and one last +2 for being over 16000 lbs. Total bonus to the dragon of +10. (I presume you can see the pattern? :))
That doesn't answer what happens on a roll of Nat20, though. :( One solution would be to not use the Nat20 rule. Instead, allow the Nat20 to be a regular "20" with +10 bonus. Similarly, a roll of Nat1 is a regular "1" with a -10 penalty (so the equivalent of -9). Some games treat a Nat20 as a regular roll and simply allow a second d20 to be rolled and added to the first.
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Personally, I don't think a halfling has a 5% chance of grappling the 10 ton dragon -- and I don't care what the game mechanics say!
1a.) Does the dragon get a chance to break free of the grapple before he falls to the ground, or does the grapple check to break free happen after the fall?
No, unless starting at an altitude higher than the distance you fall in one round (600'? I forget..)
2.) Even though the dragon was grappled and can't move, he can still use his wings to stay in place. The rules say you can't do anything that requires 2 hands, but nothing about wings. If the elemental succeeded in pinning the dragon then they would both fall.
Exactly...
2a.) Perhaps the dragon would need to make a Fly check (with grapple penalties to Dex) to Hover to stay aloft while grappled? The rules don't seem to say anything about this, but that would be a reasonable house rule.
Exactly. The rules DO cover this, that unless you have the Hover ability, you have to make a Fly check to remain in one square without moving, and of course any penalties apply to such a check (including Encumbrance from the other Grappler and any gear, I would say)
3.) Does the fact that the dragon is 2 sizes larger than the elemental have any bearing? It's sorta like a person wrestling with a helicopter. You could see a person making it hard for the helicopter to move around, but envisioning it stalling out is difficult.
No. ...Obviously if the person`s/elemental`s weight isn`t signifigant to the helicopter/dragon, the helicopter/dragon is likely to pass it`s Fly check to Hover.
4.) Does the fact that the dragon is way stronger than the elemental have any bearing? The dragon can certainly keep the elemental aloft, but the elemental can't carry the dragon. (Hmm, it obviously does because if the elemental could have carried the dragon, they would not be falling.)
No. Both STR and Size are simply factored into the CMD. PRPG halved the relative benefit of Size beyond Large, and if you want it`s relatively easy to revert that.
The funny thing is that the Grappled condition doesn`t actually force the Grapplers to remain together following subsequent actions, only that a succesful check moves the target adjacent to the Grappler... Per RAW the Grapple Condition isn`t lost until the Grappler fails to Maintain it next turn (or the Graplee escapes), so technically the Dragon (if it fails it`s Fly/Hover check) could fall (still with Grappled condition) but the Elemental does not.
...Though I would say (as a house-rule, the RAW doesn`t say this) that the Grapple Condition is lost if the Grapple target is moved outside of the reach of the Grappler, allowing the Dragon to Move normally.
Ignoring that issue though, the Elemental should also be able to make a Fly check including the Encumbrance penalty for `carrying` the Dragon... IF the Elemental moved to Grapple the Dragon on it`s turn (unclear, summoning immediately adjacent to Dragon to avoid Movement AoO`s is very common) it wouldn`t have the increased DC for Hovering, though Encumbrance penalties would apply. (I`m assuming that keeping yourself AND a Dragon in the air counts as a `complex maneuver` that necessitates a skill check here)