Hey all! I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out the best way to approach a situation that has recently come up with one of my best friends and my wife and sister-in-law. I can't really come up with a way to handle the whole thing that is satisfactory in my head, so I thought I might ask some advice here. So here's the low-down:
Last Saturday, a couple of my friends came over for some 3.5; we were introducing a new player to the game. I'll call them...Moe and Johnny. Johnny was DMing the game for the first time in a long while for us, and Moe was playing.During the course of the game, my wife was messing around with her (brand new) smartphone, still trying to figure it out, and my sis-in-law had a netbook with her and was working on a play she has to write for a creative writing class at college. They weren't doing these things throughout the entirety of the game, nor were they letting it distract them completely; they were able to keep up with what was going on and act appropriately in all the different game situations. Nor is this unusual behavior for either of the girls; truth be told, they need something else to do to keep their minds focused when they are at the gaming table. Sitting for hours on end makes them both very, very uncomfortable and having that something else to do keeps them at the table and devoting attention to what's happening in the game.
The problem came after the game was over; Moe, who is pretty much the only DM I've played under for the past two years or so, approached me after the game and expressed his dissatisfaction with the perceived inattentiveness of my wife and her sister at the gaming table. He didn't mention them specifically by name, but certain situations (like messing around on a cell phone) were explicitly mentioned as things he didn't really care to see at the table; the allusion to the girls was obvious. He then told me about another game he was wanting to run some time down the road (like...at least a year) for another group of our friends, which happens to be a Star Wars fan club that I, my wife, and her sister are all part of. Moe is not a member and has only ever been to one monthly meeting in the three years I've been a member. While discussing this game with me, he asked me how many of the Star Wars group, which I'm currently GMing through Second Darkness, were "serious" players and then asked if I would first invite only the "serious" people to play in this sometime-future game of his, only extending that invitation to the "less serious" people after the former list is exhausted. Again, it was clear who he was referencing.
My sister-in-law overheard him saying these things and has since told me that if she's just some kind of last resort that Moe only accepts into his campaign because he has no other choice, she'd rather not play in his game at all; my wife has expressed a similar sentiment. I can't blame either for feeling the way that they do, but I'm unsure of how best to broach the situation with Moe, with whom I've been close friends for over twenty years (since we were six). As stated previously, this is common behavior for the girls, and does nothing to detract from their ability to play the game, which they thoroughly enjoy doing.
So..following that wall-o-text, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how best I should deal with this situation. We were supposed to have the second-to-last session of Moe's campaign in a couple weeks, but I'm really not sure that's gonna happen now.
Writing a play on her Netbook for her college course...seriously?
Ummm, both these behaviors would be straight out unacceptable at my table. I simply do not believe that it is possible to write for college level courses and give the DM the attention he deserves at the same time. If I happened to be the DM I'd be straight out insulted. I understand having to pause the action because a player needs to take a phone call or some such and maybe a player with a new toy should be allowed a few minutes to show it off but this takes it to new levels.
In the end I understand Moe's frustration at this sort of behavior though your in a bit of a tight spot. I mean I can sort of understand that your wife and sister in law may need to move around a bit more or some such but maybe more frequent breaks is a better answer or something that they can fidget with in their hands that does not obviously require them to focus their attention away from the DM and the game? Honestly would they pull out these kinds of gadgets if some one puts on a play of Midsummer Nights Dream?
That said maybe there is some reason here for the behavior...just how long do the girls have to sit and wait before they need to make a meaningful decision anyway? Their activities become much more understandable if they really don't do anything but sit and wait for 10 minutes at a stretch. If this is the case then something needs to be done to pick up the pace or to get them more involved in the decision making.
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Why don't you sit together for a coffee once and discuss in the group what you think are acceptable activities at the gaming table?
If you manage to come to an agreement, all is good, and if not, it's better that it was discussed before instead of having problems or bad will because of the exclusion of players in another campaign...
...Why don't you sit together for a coffee once and discuss in the group what you think are acceptable activities at the gaming table?
If you manage to come to an agreement, all is good, and if not, it's better that it was discussed before instead of having problems or bad will because of the exclusion of players in another campaign...
"Sit and talk about it." may be clichéd advice, but if it is, that's only because it's always good advice. I'll see if I can get all the involved parties to agree to sit and talk it out before the next game. Thanks.
Writing a play on her Netbook for her college course...seriously?
Yeah, I was pretty amazed by it, too. I mean..the game that I'm GMing, people cut up and sometimes get up to walk around a bit, but everybody pretty much stays on top of things, so it doesn't bother me. Even in the middle of doing something like that, my sister-in-law stayed on top of things, knew when her combat turn came up, knew the basics of whatever tactical situation we were in, and knew who she was planning to attack. I don't think I'm that good of a multi-tasker, but apparently she is.
Of course, that said, even Johnny complained a little about the lack of attentiveness, and he's usually as laid-back as me.
To the OP,
I think your DM handled this pretty well and seems to have valid points. If the extracurricular stuff that was happening during his game didn't bother him he would not have mentioned it so obviously it bothered him. Whether or not you and the other players feel he is "right" make no difference.
When a DM and players sit down for a face to face game of D&D a social contract is in place and has been agreed to by all parties that at a minimum requires every participant to be dedicated to the game at hand with minimal distraction for the agreed duration of the game. If the DM or any of the players can't abide by this contract they should just leave the game or not agree to another one. Pretty simple.
I like to think of a session of D&D as a job everyone has agreed to do, the compensation for this job is several hours of fun.
If you are a player: the DM is your boss and playing your character is your job. Would you write a play in front of your boss during work hours? Or endlessly fiddle with your cell phone during a work meeting? No. Would you occasionally crack a joke or quickly take a personal phone call? Yes.
If you are a DM: the players are your employees and you need them in order to be successful. Would you verbally abuse your employees or micromanage every minute of their day? No, and if you did you would not have them for long. Would you completely isolate them and allow absolutely no activities or discussion during work hours that was not expressly related to work? No. Would you tolerate them writing plays or endlessly fiddling with cell phones when they should be working? No.
There you go...
Its more complex then that. Its not the DM complaining its another player. However the DM was new for this group.
Ultimately, though, nobody's right and nobody's wrong.
I agree with this. I see it as a matter of expectations. It seems to me the future GM and the ladies have different expectations of the game. It is probably for the best if they politely go their separate ways.
I with Courtfool in this one. You're DM seems more like a hardcore gamer than the ladies. I know I personally will play my DS when the other players are causing things to drag on, and I won't miss a thing. There have in fact been several times my DM has tried to trick me because he thinks I haven't been paying attention, only to find out I had been looking and listening all along. As for what Cibet said, I must respectfully yet heartily disagree. This is a game between friends, not the NFL. If the DM had really had a problem with what was going on, he should have polietly asked the ladies to stop what they were doing then and there. Instead, he make innuendos about them behind there backs. In my group of friends, only up-front honesty (not rudeness) gets people what they want.
I with Courtfool in this one. You're DM seems more like a hardcore gamer than the ladies.
He is most definitely this. Heck, I've been gaming for every bit as long as he has - about ten years at this point - and he does tend to take the games very seriously; more seriously than I'd really ever think to. As a player, I'm pretty open to trying new things, have at least attempted a dozen different character types, and am ok with situations not going by-the-book all the time. As a GM, and I think for my wife and sister-in-law, my view is that we're coming together to play a game, have fun, and enjoy each others company. If that means we don't get as far as planned, get sidetracked for a few minutes, or everyone has a laughing fit because of something funny that was said, then I'm ok with it, as long as everyone is having a good time.
My friend is more the type that has a plan, knows what he expects the PCs to accomplish, and doesn't like a lot of deviation. He has, in the past, chastised us for engaging in friendly chatter outside the game. Something my sister-in-law just said about it a little while ago is that it "seems like he's less in it to have fun and more to have actors for his fantasy world." Not sure if that's an accurate statement from his perspective, but I can honestly say that yes, it sometimes does seem like that.
Heck, he was wanting me to plan for the next session we play in his campaign to last eight or nine hours. I told him no way; not even I have that kind of patience and focus.
If the DM had really had a problem with what was going on, he should have polietly asked the ladies to stop what they were doing then and there. Instead, he make innuendos about them behind there backs. In my group of friends, only up-front honesty (not rudeness) gets people what they want.
The thing here is, at the time, Moe wasn't the DM. He was a player in the beginner's game making reference to a session we were planning to play for his campaign two weeks from now after the training game that Johnny was in charge of ended.
Johnny didn't really say anything about the extra activity at the table; I imagine because he was running the basic D&D 3.5 training module and most of the people at the table were using the pre-gens that came with that starter set instead of using a character of their own creation and, because of the nature of the game, he wasn't really that worried about it.
Neither water nor oil are bad by themselves, but they just don't mix. Just because a group of people are all gamers doesn't mean they can or should all be in the same Group.
It isn't an issue of wrong-bad-fun or that someone needs to change. It seems that "Moe" and the ladies simply don't work together in terms of play style. If so, then they need to not play together, and instead find separate Group members more to their individual style.
Very much this.
While I also echo and support the suggestion to talk the situation out amicably, some play styles just don't and won't mix.
I have to say if I were in the OP's gaming group, I would ask to not be put in groups with the OP's wife or sister-in-law either; I would find their behavior extremely distracting both as a player and especially as a GM.
However, I hope I would be mature enough to simply say, rather than passive aggressively imply, "Their style and my style don't match"--and also say that to their faces, that it's nothing personal, that we are obviously looking for different kinds of games and gaming groups and that I hope to get together with them for other social activities we enjoy together.
IF there are hard feelings running around because the OP's sister-in-law overheard the conversation with Moe, that is a slightly separate issue that may also need to be addressed. We're not just talking about conflicting play styles; there are feelings that have been hurt which need to be cleared out as well. Good luck, OP.
Just letting everyone know the situation has been resolved. First off, I made an error in my OP, which shows just how much I was paying attention. She wasn't writing on a college play on her netbook, she was just jotting down notes for it in a notepad. That's my bad, and I think changes the dynamic of the situation significantly.
Anyway...talked to Moe about it yesterday, and it turns out he wasn't even talking about that situation at all; he was mainly referring to a situation that occurred at the last game we'd had with another friend of ours who had been extremely inattentive. He's apologized to my sis-in-law for the hurt feelings now and all is well with the world.
Ain't it funny how we can fret and worry over situations like this and how to deal with them, when if we'd just talk it out to begin with, they're pretty much always ok?
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Just letting everyone know the situation has been resolved. First off, I made an error in my OP, which shows just how much I was paying attention. She wasn't writing on a college play on her netbook, she was just jotting down notes for it in a notepad. That's my bad, and I think changes the dynamic of the situation significantly.
Anyway...talked to Moe about it yesterday, and it turns out he wasn't even talking about that situation at all; he was mainly referring to a situation that occurred at the last game we'd had with another friend of ours who had been extremely inattentive. He's apologized to my sis-in-law for the hurt feelings now and all is well with the world.
Ain't it funny how we can fret and worry over situations like this and how to deal with them, when if we'd just talk it out to begin with, they're pretty much always ok?
That's what happens when people are passive-aggressive about sh!t. If the problem player wasn't even there, why all the innuendo and bullsh!t? Tell the dude if he has a problem in the future he needs to nut up or shut up.
Ain't it funny how we can fret and worry over situations like this and how to deal with them, when if we'd just talk it out to begin with, they're pretty much always ok?
That is exactly why my first response is generally to talk to the person with whom we have an issue.