Shield of Swings, Combat Maneuvers, and Low-Level Full Attack

[borodino21]

Two questions about Shield of Swings:

1) Shield of Swings lets you trade half your damage for a shield bonus to AC when full-attacking with a two-handed weapon. Trip, disarm, and sunder maneuvers are allowed to be substituted for the individual attacks of a full-attack. Rules-as-written, can you substitute out all of the attacks for maneuvers, dealing half of no damage, and get the shield bonus?

2) The SRD's definition of a full attack runs like this: "If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones." Can a character whose base attack bonus is not high enough and not fighting with two- or double- weapons declare that they are making a full attack if they otherwise follow the rules for full attack (no other actions except a five foot step)?

This question is also known as "Is Shield of Swings useable before sixth level?".

[Tom Baumbach]

borodino21 wrote:

1) Shield of Swings lets you trade half your damage for a shield bonus to AC when full-attacking with a two-handed weapon. Trip, disarm, and sunder maneuvers are allowed to be substituted for the individual attacks of a full-attack. Rules-as-written, can you substitute out all of the attacks for maneuvers, dealing half of no damage, and get the shield bonus?

If there's nothing to trade, there's nothing to gain. (Same reason you can't fight defensively and cast bless.)

borodino21 wrote:

2)Is Shield of Swings useable before sixth level?

Huh, that's an interesting quirk I never noticed before. I'd say the intent is that yes, you can make a full attack even if you are only capable of one attack in a round. (I'd also point to "for some special reason" as the reason why you can activate that feat, even at levels 1-5.)

[Brogue The Rogue]

As far as I'm aware, there's absolutely no reason you couldn't use Shield of Swings, then full attack using all combat maneuvers.

Although this isn't as useful as it sounds, since any good combat maneuvers allow an attack in addition to the maneuver. So this combo only works well when you're bad at using combat maneuvers, basically.

And a full attack action can be used before your BAB is +6. It takes a full round action, you can take a five foot step as normal, and you still only get your one attack.

Honestly, I'm a little relieved that that feat has some use at all. I hadn't though of using it like this.

[Tanis]

Tom Baumbach wrote:

If there's nothing to trade, there's nothing to gain.

This is right. You need to actually trade something.

Tom Baumbach wrote:

(Same reason you can't fight defensively and cast bless.)

umm, the reason you can't do both is because they're both standard actions, there's nothing to swap here.

[Louis IX]

If you need to trade something, you could make your first attack as usual, trading half your damage for the AC bonus, then make your other attacks as trip attempts or whatever.

[Tanis]

That would work, as would using any of your attacks for the trip.

As long as there's a trade-off of some kind.

[Catharsis]

Tanis wrote:

That would work, as would using any of your attacks for the trip.

Can you remind me -- do iterative attacks used for combat maneuvers take the iteration penalties or are they always at full CMB?

Anyway, the feat never sounded useless to me. It gives you a defensive option that grants you more AC than your sword-and-board colleagues (at least for most playable levels) while still allowing you to deal almost as much damage as they would. One more nail in the coffin of straight sword-and-board. :(

[Tanis]

Combat maneouvres taken with iterative attacks have the same bab as an attack roll (+6/+1) plus other normal modifiers to the 'attack roll'.

I don't think it's useless, but it in no way replaces or surpasses a sword and board in regards to defence. Especially when you add enhancement bonuses for shields to AC and feats like Shield Focus etc.

Plus Shield Slam is pretty useful if you have Gtr Bullrush, not as game-breaking as some would have you believe, but an extra bonus.