What's an intelligent magic item's attack roll?

[see]

Bob the Intelligent Amulet of Natural Armor has the Disrupt Undead spell as an at-will ability. Bob is, of course, a construct. What is Bob's BAB for purposes of Disrupt Undead's ranged touch attack?

[Ravingdork]

see wrote:

Bob the Intelligent Amulet of Natural Armor has the Disrupt Undead spell as an at-will ability. Bob is, of course, a construct. What is Bob's BAB for purposes of Disrupt Undead's ranged touch attack?

I would make it equal to his caster level (possibly -5 for no dexterity). It's the only level based variable we have to work from.

I have no idea what the official word is, however, on account that he "technically" doesn't have any hit dice like most constructs would.

[skrahen]

i don't think an unmoving object without the dexterity attribute can effectively use a ranged attack by itself. i think you would need something or someone to point the business end of the device at the target. other abilities that do not require to-hit rolls i think work fine. i'm curious whether there are rules to this effect or otherwise official guidelines for resolving targeted attacks from intelligent magic items.

edit: was the amulet created with the craft construct feat? or wondrous item?

[see]

skrahen wrote:

was the amulet created with the craft construct feat? or wondrous item?

Wondrous item. It's a normal intelligent magic item, per the intelligent magic item rules in the core rules. It's a construct only because those rules say "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

[Tanis]

Wow. I've never heard of a magic item that actually attacks on its own. Usually it's a spell effect like Death Ward or something.

Anyway, I'd rule that you use caster lvl as bab, and add its highest mental attribute modifier.

This would probably be an exception to the Dex mod to ranged attack rule. Just because it's not actually using Dexterity to aim.

But that's not even remotely RAW.

[BigNorseWolf]

see wrote:

Bob the Intelligent Amulet of Natural Armor has the Disrupt Undead spell as an at-will ability. Bob is, of course, a construct. What is Bob's BAB for purposes of Disrupt Undead's ranged touch attack?

Oookay.. i'm not sure where Ifyou went outside the rules there but assuming you have Bob as described

Disrupt undead can be cast at 1st level. Constructs in pathfinder have fighter BAB, so that would be +1. If the amulet has a higher natural armor bonus than +1 its BAB would be 3 X the natural armor bonus.

If there were a save (there isnt) it would be DC of 10 ( 10+spell level (0) + stat modifier of the minimum to cast the spell (+0 for a stat of 10)

[see]

Ravingdork wrote:

I would make it equal to his caster level (possibly -5 for no dexterity). It's the only level based variable we have to work from.

Hmm. Actually, I think that is the resolution here.

Per "Intelligent Item Powers", Core Rulebook p.535, the caster level for Bob's power is the same as his item caster level. Per Core Rulebook p.500, the caster level for an amulet of natural armor is 5th, regardless of the value of the bonus. Per p.460, "The caster level determines . . . range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable)."

So, for determining Bob's BAB for casting Disrupt Undead, since he's a construct and that's a level-dependent variable for purposes of his intelligent item power, his BAB is +5.

The question then becomes, is Bob's Dex 0, –, or something else entirely (like using his best mental ability score, as any save DC is explicitly said to work on p.535)?

[Stubs McKenzie]

The caster level is set by the creator of the item, to a minimum of the CL needed to cast the highest level spell that is used to create the item, so as an example:

Amulet of Natural armor +X can be a minimum of CL3 (to cast barkskin which is a level 2 spell) or could be CL20 if the caster wanted to spend the requisite cost to make it such.

It is treated like a construct, so BAB will = CL, and any stats it doesn't possess treat as having 10 (no bonus or penalty) for checks associated (I believe that's how the stats bit works, though if someone can verify it would be good).

In this case the magic items to hit would be anywhere from +3 to +20 (or more if using epic rules), and save would be based on highest mental stat bonus + spell level.

[LazarX]

see wrote:

skrahen wrote:

was the amulet created with the craft construct feat? or wondrous item?

Wondrous item. It's a normal intelligent magic item, per the intelligent magic item rules in the core rules. It's a construct only because those rules say "Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs."

That's part of the hardship of being an intelligent item. You're essentially helpless unless you find some dumb schmuck... HERO! to put you on and lay himself open for domination or partnership. In such a happy case, you use the User's stats for battle considerations.

On the other hand instead of being just an intelligent magic item, you're an actual construct with str, dex scores. The Bestiary has your attack stats.

[see]

Stubs McKenzie wrote:

The caster level is set by the creator of the item, to a minimum of the CL needed to cast the highest level spell that is used to create the item

No. Core rules, p.460, "Caster Level" entry. The creator only sets the CL "[f]or "potions, scrolls, and wands." "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself." An amulet of natural armor is set at 5th level in its entry, and it's pretty clearly not a potion, scroll, or wand.

LazarX wrote:

In such a happy case, you use the User's stats for battle considerations.

An intelligent item is explicitly a character, explicitly using its own actions to use its own power. So where, precisely, does it say it uses the battle stats of the character who is wearing it? Give me a page number.

[LazarX]

see wrote:

Stubs McKenzie wrote:

The caster level is set by the creator of the item, to a minimum of the CL needed to cast the highest level spell that is used to create the item

No. Core rules, p.460, "Caster Level" entry. The creator only sets the CL "[f]or "potions, scrolls, and wands." "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself." An amulet of natural armor is set at 5th level in its entry, and it's pretty clearly not a potion, scroll, or wand.

LazarX wrote:

In such a happy case, you use the User's stats for battle considerations.

An intelligent item is explicitly a character, explicitly using its own actions to use its own power. So where, precisely, does it say it uses the battle stats of the character who is wearing it? Give me a page number.

see there are no rulings for playing intelligent items as characters. There are however the guidelines for intelligent items with EGO and other rules such as animated constructs. If you have no str or dex score or HD, then you have no combat table.

[Stubs McKenzie]

It seems you are right, but that makes me wonder how to determine an items CL if it is anything other than what's in the book... Wondrous Items seem to follow the minimum caster level rule unless it is an item that grants an ability bonus, in which case it seems random... which is silly. Bracers of armor CL7, Ring of Prot CL5, Cloak of Resistance CL5. If it gives a 1-5 bonus its CL5, if it gives a 1-8 its CL7, a 2,4,6 item a CL8? What's the reasoning? Why can't it be lower or higher? Why those numbers? They don't include CL into the cost of items with ability bonuses... but if it is limited to your CL or lower then... *shrug*

There should be a way to figure out what your never before seen wondrous item CL is without having to guess (other than min caster lvl for a spell, because that obviously doesn't always apply).