My main gripe is that you might have to retroactively change your bloodline if you choose to multiclass into Bloodrager, but chose a sorcerer bloodline that the Bloodrager doesn't have access to. (This can be done in a whole lot of ways, Eldritch Heritage being the simplest.)
I wouldn't mind this so much if Paizo published a bloodline for everything they've made so far, so I can have Android Nanite Bloodrager NPCs ready for Numerian adventures. What's even worse is that a lot of the already existing bloodlines (Like Nanite, or Ork) work really well with Bloodrager already, but we're limited to some of the more generic
But anywho, I like Elemental more than I like Infernal or Dragon, since I think the ability of elemental damage to bypass resistance all the time is pretty huge compared to the conditional instances for the other two lines.
My personal favorite is the draconic bloodline. It's probably not the most powerful mechanically, but I like the theme of the powers slowly making the Bloodrager more and more draconic until they actually turn into a full-blown young adult dragon at Level 16.
It feels pretty epic, at least to me. Plus there's even an archetype in the book that makes natural attacks even better, so there's that going for dragon bloodragers too.
Dragon blood certainly seems to work out better for Bloodragers than for Sorcerers, that's for sure!
I've come to the same conclusion as you, that arcane and destined are the strongest by a good margin, but I don't think the choice is so clear-cut. Arcane gives you access to invisibility and dimension door, both of which are huge deals and fundamentally change what the class is capable of, even if you do get them later than the sorcerer. On top of that, the free spell action economy is insane, and I think there's a healthy room for debate about the king of the bloodlines.
I wish they come up with an "official FAQ" soon on how the sorcerer bloodline interacts with bloodrager bloodlines.
Especially things like do bloodrager bloodlines count as sorcerer ones to qualify for items like Robes of Arcane Heritage, or advanced by Dragon Disciple's Blood of the Dragons, etc.
There have been opinions so far, but I'm not convinced and will not touch this class till these grey areas have been ironed out.
Destined is definitely one of the best bloodlines. The insight bonus is great, Fated Bloodrager is a lovely bonus to everything that stacks, Certain Strike becomes even better with rage-cycling and Unstoppable is godly.
I will say that personally I like Abyssal a lot more, but if you're not going Crossblooded then I would say Aberrant, Arcane, and Destined are the best.
I also disagree a bit with you on the Fey bloodline. It is great for a charge-focused Bloodrager, though without Pounce it becomes annoying to use. Below-average definitely though. Infernal and Celestial are probably the worst in my eyes, though Celestial is probably better in something like Wrath of the Righteous or some anti-fiend campaign.
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I see people mentioning problems in interactions between sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines, but as I recall from the playtests these ACG hybrid classes are prohibited from multiclassing with component classes, so as far as I know you can't have a sorcerer/bloodrager. Unless this changed between the playtest and the final release.
I'm actually wondering what people think about the Crossblooded archetype. You take a -2 for all Will saving throws, and a net -4 if you're raging compared to a normal Barbarian. Does that really make a huge difference? Destined Bloodragers will end up taking the least penalty from this, since they can grab the bonus to saving throws...
However others will probably get extreme pain from the Will saves, especially since you already have the weak Will save. I suppose it depends on how much you feel threatened by Will saves?
I see people mentioning problems in interactions between sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines, but as I recall from the playtests these ACG hybrid classes are prohibited from multiclassing with component classes, so as far as I know you can't have a sorcerer/bloodrager. Unless this changed between the playtest and the final release.
Yes it did, sadly. That would have put a stop to many potential conflicts.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes
Parent Classes: Each one of the following classes lists two classes that it draws upon to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, this usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline). The new classes presented here are all hybrids of two existing core or base classes.
The undead bloodline strikes me as one of the weak ones or at least very situational. Two abilities are about causing fear, one is about combating incorporeals, most of which are not subject to fear (undead). It has a clear line to follow only in fluff but not execution.
Celestial is very depending in the campaign you play but elemental (especially air) can be nice for the early permanent fly speed.
Infernal again seems rather weak. Especially when compared to elemental which is somewhat similar. The 1st level power gives flaming and thus doesn't stack with a flaming weapon whereas the elemental version should stack. And for most of the other powers elemental has a power that is similar but better.
What strikes me as interesting is that you will not be able to make a fly check while raging without taking a feat or trait that allows it, yet many bloodlines eventually give you a permanent fly speed. I guess that will be a much overlooked/handwaved rule.
I'd have a hard time dumping any of the Destined bloodline powers except level 8 or Arcane other than level 12, so it'd be difficult to squeeze Greater Beast Totem in via Primalist. Says something about how good the powers are I suppose. Elemental would be relatively easier, drop 4 and 12 and you're there.
Could you take Extra Rage Power once you have at least one rage power, or do you need the exact class feature?
I'd have a hard time dumping any of the Destined bloodline powers except level 8 or Arcane other than level 12, so it'd be difficult to squeeze Greater Beast Totem in via Primalist. Says something about how good the powers are I suppose. Elemental would be relatively easier, drop 4 and 12 and you're there.
Could you take Extra Rage Power once you have at least one rage power, or do you need the exact class feature?
I think you need the class feature. But you could dip a level of barbarian, don't you?
While the individual bloodline abilities for Destined are very strong, the bonus feats and spells they get I think are the weakest.
I'm in the process of trying to make a Bloodrager for a 15pt buy game and he's spread so thin that I don't want to choose a bloodline that doesn't have Iron Will as a bonus feat.
As for the Fly checks, you can make Fly (also Intimidate, Ride, and Acrobatics) checks normally while Bloodraging. I think the same applies for normal Rage as well.
Right I misread it.
I think you need the class feature. But you could dip a level of barbarian, don't you?I'd have a hard time dumping any of the Destined bloodline powers except level 8 or Arcane other than level 12, so it'd be difficult to squeeze Greater Beast Totem in via Primalist. Says something about how good the powers are I suppose. Elemental would be relatively easier, drop 4 and 12 and you're there.
Could you take Extra Rage Power once you have at least one rage power, or do you need the exact class feature?
Wouldn't said dip need to be two levels?
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As soon as I saw the elemental bloodline can get you a constant (while raging) 60 foot flight speed, I was hooked.
Now I want to make a Halfling bloodrager that wears Mistmail, can electrify his attacks, and has Flyby Attack, so that by 9th level he can literally just be a stormcloud that flies down to smack/zap people.
Maybe a Destined Half-Elf with Auspicious Tattoo and Fate's Favored for traits could pull off the cross-blooded archetype? That's a total +3, +5 with Iron Will. Not terrible, at least.
I for one would be afraid to ever show up at a table that had -4 to will saves and wasn't wisdom based. Just picture yourself being a wrecking machine and your party loves you for it and then.... Your dominated. To heck with the character your real life friendship is now in jeopardy :)
To be fair, it's not REALLY -4. It's a permanent -2, and an additional -2 in comparison to barbarians and bloodragers.
Also, until we get a ruling on crossblooded (and primalist) stacking with other archetypes, you could shore that up a bit by being a primalist and grabbing superstition.
I refuse to play characters with Weak Will Saves in general. It just doesn't seem heroic to be dominated or to scream and then run away from the bad guy.
I love Draconic, if only because it's a single-class entrance fee into Dragon Disciple.
Hmm... Let's see how high we can get the Crossblooded Rager's will save:
+5 Fated Bloodrager
+1 Fate's Favored
+1 Auspicious Tattoo
+1 Totem Spirit (Moon Clan)
+2 Iron Will
+2 Dual-Minded
+6 Class
+1 Attribute (based on a 20 point buy I concocted)
+5 Cloak of Resistance
-2 Crossblooded
So... +22 at level 20. You beat the Pit Fiend's Blasphemy save on a 3. Most of this is either available right at the beginning of the game or scales with level too; this is really a display of how insanely good Fated Bloodrager is.
In my experience, the Destined and Abyssal bloodline combination is by far the best with the Crossblooded archetype (especially if your base class is something like a tiefling who normally can't benefit from enlarge person).
Essentially the benefits of fated bloodrager (along with the fate's favored trait) pretty much offset any penalties from being crossblooded. In addition, both bloodlines have an excellent array of spells and bonus feats to choose from.
I would probably agree Aberrant is VERY strong (its immune to A LOT, but most importantly fatigue and exhaustion), but in this regard, it also makes tireless rage a little redundant and therefore useless.
In all honesty though, the Arcane bloodline isn't really that impressive to me. Its not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but aside from greater arcane bloodrage (which lets you benefit from haste upon raging), there's nothing that really stands out for me.
After all, the bloodrager can eventually cast spells upon himself automatically whenever he bloodrages, and haste is something you normally want to cast on the entire party anyway.
In all honesty though, the Arcane bloodline isn't really that impressive to me. Its not bad by any stretch of the imagination, but aside from greater arcane bloodrage (which lets you benefit from haste upon raging), there's nothing that really stands out for me.
There's some nice mage slayer stuff there. Synergizes well with a primalist/untouchable rager combo to be the ultimate mage slayer.
Has anyone else noticed that the Abbarrant Bloodline can get up to a 30' reach?
Enlarge + Long Arms + Abnormal Reach + Reach Weapon
It also seems to have really solid abilities overall. The level 8 ability can combine with a cracked ion stone to let you ignore fatigue and exhaustion.
And the opening ability is staggering critical at level 1. Add in a Fauchard and combat reflexes and watch enemies cry as you cost them there turns. (I would use a cracked ion stone to get weapon familiarity with the Fauchard)
I am also a fan of the bonus spells,
Enlarge person is a great spell to cast before going into a fight, especially if you use that ring that lets you cast it with the ring of ancestral blood. See invisibility is also amazing since every boss seems to have some way to turn invisible, and displacement and black tentacles are both solid spells.
I admit the unusual anatomy seems a little redundant with the improved uncanny dodge, but negating cries 50% is something I'm happy with.
I am also a fan of the Aberrant Bonus Feats. Iron Will, Improved Init, COmbat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, and the others are great for certain builds too.
Finally it is the only bloodline that can get a familiar. So another +4 initiative, or +2 will, or any of the other amazing familiar options.
I think Undead has interesting interplay with the Spelleater archetype.
Spelleater removes the DR feature, but says you have a DR of zero, and any other DR increase is added to that. Undead says at 20 that your DR increases to 8. It would be a possible reading to say that the Undead will end up with both the Fast Healing, and better than full DR at 20.
I would probably agree Aberrant is VERY strong (its immune to A LOT, but most importantly fatigue and exhaustion), but in this regard, it also makes tireless rage a little redundant and therefore useless.
I thought the same thing about the fatigue immunity... until I realized it only applies when you're in a bloodrage. That means it doesn't prevent the fatigue that comes from ending a rage, and since you can't begin the rage while fatigued, you can't use the immunity to clear the fatigue. It can't be used to cycle early.
It can at level 8. There is a cracked ion stone that makes you sickened instead of fatigued when you would be fatigued.
Finally it is the only bloodline that can get a familiar. So another +4 initiative, or +2 will, or any of the other amazing familiar options.
Ok, I give up. How does an aberrant bloodrager get a familiar?
There is a feat in ACG. First feat in the book. Aberrant Tumor.
Oooh! Very cool! I kept checking the bloodline description. I didn't think to check the feats.
Regarding your earlier discussion of reach, wouldn't using a whip and lunge (along with the things you mentioned) give you 40' reach?
It would but unless you realm invest in feats you don't threaten and I didn't want to commit that much.
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Destined gets a lot better with Cross Blooded for the first bloodline power, and the Fortune's Favored trait which doubles Luck bonuses for the 4th lvl bloodline power. A Lot Better.Fate's favored is a strong trait and does work nicely with it. It's still pretty weak as a blood line because unlike superstition which costs you 1 rage power it costs you an entire bloodline if you don't go cross blooded which is a self defeating cross blood since it gives you saves and takes saves away.
A single level dip into Bard(Archeologist) makes that all better.
The undead bloodline strikes me as one of the weak ones or at least very situational. Two abilities are about causing fear, one is about combating incorporeals, most of which are not subject to fear (undead). It has a clear line to follow only in fluff but not execution.
Celestial is very depending in the campaign you play but elemental (especially air) can be nice for the early permanent fly speed.
Infernal again seems rather weak. Especially when compared to elemental which is somewhat similar. The 1st level power gives flaming and thus doesn't stack with a flaming weapon whereas the elemental version should stack. And for most of the other powers elemental has a power that is similar but better.
What strikes me as interesting is that you will not be able to make a fly check while raging without taking a feat or trait that allows it, yet many bloodlines eventually give you a permanent fly speed. I guess that will be a much overlooked/handwaved rule.
Especially frustrating is that even with the undead bloodline a bloodrager can't create undead, i'm not saying ghouls or vampires but Animate Dead is level 4 and Lesser Animate Dead is level 3(2 for cleric), both are within the max level of bloodrager spells.
That's quite disappointing, i mean how cool it would be to smite your enemies while raging, then casting the spell and making them come back as your personal squad of unliving helpers?