**** the party! That's what's being a Paladin's all about. :D
Seriously, though, I HATED those stupid things. No one in our party was willing to wear them, and half the party were uncomfortable doing business with the sort of person who would buy such an item (i.e. they were good aligned.) They ended up going in a trunk and forgotten.
We tried to let the GM let us sell them to a church or something to be destroyed, but he wouldn't go for it.Interestingly, the thing your GM 'wouldn't go for' was the solution recommended on the boards by either JJ or Pett (can't remember which).
This magic item has come up several times and most GMs seem to take the same approach - good churches will give you a reward if you give them the item so that they can destroy it in a sacred ritual which lays the souls involved to rest.
ELVEN MAGE: Excuse me, that's my hand, I was murdered for it, but my friends brought me back to life so you don't need to contact the soul it belonged to because he's standing here right now! Yes, I don't approve of the magics used to make it either, but I also don't approve of self-appointed do-gooders trying to grab my former body parts to toss on a pyre while they mumble prayers their gods will likely never hear. And I call shenanigans on that business about the soul being tormented about post-death corpse abuse. I was dead, so you'd think I should know, shouldn't I? And you know what else? Elven wizards make these all the time and you don't even have to murder anyone. You clone yourself, and if you die and your soul goes into the clone, you make a couple of these as souvenirs of your old body and give them to people who are true friends. We call them "Hands of Friendship." The cloaks and boots of elvenkind? That's just crap we make for the tourists.
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good churches will give you a reward if you give them the item so that they can destroy it in a sacred ritual which lays the souls involved to rest.If souls are involved it should definitely read as Evil.
Just a bit of fluff for the temple/reward system.
I am re-DMing this now and they will detect as evil in my game, it makes more sense to me.
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Lots of stuff only relevant to an entirely different magic item whose creation is not defined.
The masks under discussion were made by the Cult of Norgorber to be used in ritual killings. They were made of the flesh of several people who did not want to die and receive no benefit.
I wasn't proposing a one-size fits all approach, I was offering a solution, one which actually has absolutely nothing to do with bits of dead people but can also be used to destroy evil-aligned weapons, items that create undead, holy symbols of evil gods, etc. etc.
I don't really see the relevance of your lovely bit of writing, although I did enjoy it.
In the real world, Tibetan monks use flutes made of human thigh bones, and drink from ritual bowls made of human skulls. Tibetans don't see anything wrong with this. For that matter, they don't see anything wrong with chopping up the bodies of the dead and feeding them to the vultures.
So, given that we have a real world culture that probably wouldn't have a problem with these items, many members of which are likely lawful good, I don't see why a paladin automatically has an issue with it. It totally depends on what his god/culture says.
Ken
Indeed, their culture embraces this as 'holy' and it is done with reverence to those who have passed on by natural means. I am, pretty sure that, Buddhism being rather pacifism-inclined (not killing animals even for food, doing harm to none etc.), they don't go out murdering random strangers to get said items, though.
I don't think the skin masks of Norgabar, torn from his murder victims and used to assist further murders, is quite the same. That isn't done with reverence, it's done with malice, and the culture of the surrounding city frowns on it very much.
ELVEN MAGE: Excuse me, that's my hand, I was murdered for it, but my friends brought me back to life so you don't need to contact the soul it belonged to because he's standing here right now! Yes, I don't approve of the magics used to make it either, but I also don't approve of self-appointed do-gooders trying to grab my former body parts to toss on a pyre while they mumble prayers their gods will likely never hear. And I call shenanigans on that business about the soul being tormented about post-death corpse abuse. I was dead, so you'd think I should know, shouldn't I? And you know what else? Elven wizards make these all the time and you don't even have to murder anyone. You clone yourself, and if you die and your soul goes into the clone, you make a couple of these as souvenirs of your old body and give them to people who are true friends. We call them "Hands of Friendship." The cloaks and boots of elvenkind? That's just crap we make for the tourists.**** the party! That's what's being a Paladin's all about. :D
Seriously, though, I HATED those stupid things. No one in our party was willing to wear them, and half the party were uncomfortable doing business with the sort of person who would buy such an item (i.e. they were good aligned.) They ended up going in a trunk and forgotten.
We tried to let the GM let us sell them to a church or something to be destroyed, but he wouldn't go for it.Interestingly, the thing your GM 'wouldn't go for' was the solution recommended on the boards by either JJ or Pett (can't remember which).
This magic item has come up several times and most GMs seem to take the same approach - good churches will give you a reward if you give them the item so that they can destroy it in a sacred ritual which lays the souls involved to rest.
I can only assume your unusual mage hand argument is to show that magic items made from human remains aren't necessarily wrong or taboo. Fine. You do realize, though, that the particular items being discussed in this thread ARE wrong and taboo in any civilized land, right? Also, if the victim wasn't murdered, somehow I don't think the magic in these masks would work.
]My Druid has fish-skeleton earings.
So does Mr. Fishy's trollop, what's your point?
No. Mr. Fishy's scag trollop wife.
Our group has evolved a tendency, over the years (and regardless of the specific campaign) to destroy evil items on general principle. Depending on which PCs are involved this might be a moral decision or a practical one (they don't want those items in circulation where they might be used against them), but one way or another, evil items tend not to survive contact with the group.
Under other circumstances, the skin masks worn by the cultists would have gotten similar treatment -- in fact the lone mask found during an earlier set piece in the adventure was given burial rites, as it represented the human remains of multiple victims -- but they were taken by Magnimar SVU (Skinsaw Victims Unit) as evidence along with the robes and other ceremonial gear, and disposal is out of the PC's hands.
The PCs are getting plenty of reward for saving the Lord Mayor; they don't need to be compensated for the loss of magical masks none of them would be willing to wear.
I can only assume your unusual mage hand argument is to show that magic items made from human remains aren't necessarily wrong or taboo. Fine. You do realize, though, that the particular items being discussed in this thread ARE wrong and taboo in any civilized land, right? Also, if the victim wasn't murdered, somehow I don't think the magic in these masks would work.
What your talking here are a few different issues.
1. Is an item made using the power of an evil god intrinsically evil?
Example: A cleric of Norgorber pens a scroll of Cure Light Wounds. The scroll is ordinary vellum (ie. sheepskin) and uses ordinary scroll-grade ink (whatever it is the apothecary sells this week and has certified as appropriate for all scroll-making needs). Is it evil?
2. Is an item made with ingredients with an evil history intrinsically evil?
Example: A cultist of Norgorber is annoyed that the local stationers doesn't sell sufficiently evil vellum and ink for his religious devotions, so finds an orphanage or a nunnery--maybe a nunnery with an attached orphanage--murders the contents in assorted evil ways, and processes all the skins into vellum, the brains and burned bones into ink, and goes off to gleefully do some evil scroll making. Unfortunately for him, en route he's run over by a runaway milk wagon. His bag with the vellum and ink is stolen by a beggar who sells the nice bundle of vellum and ink to the local pawnbroker who then sells it to a wizard who only has enough Appraise to realize it's good for scroll making but not enough Craft Leatherworking to figure out these aren't your regular sheepskins. He then uses the flayed nun-and-orphan vellum to pen completely secular arcane scrolls. Are they evil?
3. Is an item which can have no other purpose than cruelty and suffering intrinsically evil?
Example: Someone makes a magic salt shaker that does "Baleful Polymorph: Slug" on anyone hit with the salt, then of its own accord (using nothing more than a Mage Hand enchantment) floats over the victim and shakes salt on them until the slug dissolves. Does this salt shaker radiate evil?
2. Is an item made with ingredients with an evil history intrinsically evil?
Example: A cultist of Norgorber is annoyed that the local stationers doesn't sell sufficiently evil vellum and ink for his religious devotions, so finds an orphanage or a nunnery--maybe a nunnery with an attached orphanage--murders the contents in assorted evil ways, and processes all the skins into vellum, the brains and burned bones into ink, and goes off to gleefully do some evil scroll making. Unfortunately for him, en route he's run over by a runaway milk wagon. His bag with the vellum and ink is stolen by a beggar who sells the nice bundle of vellum and ink to the local pawnbroker who then sells it to a wizard who only has enough Appraise to realize it's good for scroll making but not enough Craft Leatherworking to figure out these aren't your regular sheepskins. He then uses the flayed nun-and-orphan vellum to pen completely secular arcane scrolls. Are they evil?
"Wow! I cannot believe I got this VELLUM so dirt cheap! I can't wait to tell the rest of my party!" ;)
EDIT: "Hey guys, check out my new MASK, the paladin selling them down the street assured me that it wasn't evil and that the nausea would eventually subside. Isn't it awesome!"
That is some funny s@&~.