So, I've looked all over the archives, and I've found some material that supports the idea and some material that discounts the idea, much like any rules question, I suppose.
Basically, here's the gist: I understand how Natural Attacks work, and what makes them Primary or Secondary, and how they generally work in conjunction with Manufactured Weapons, but I'm at a loss as to this particular fact:
One of my PC's has natural Claw attacks, and also wields weapons in either of those hands. Naturally, his choice is either to attack with the weapons, or drop them and attack with the claws. If he saw fit, he could drop one weapon and attack with that claw in addition to the remaining weapon, causing that claw to become secondary, of course.
Here's the dilemma:
What's stopping him from making iterative attacks with his manufactured weapons then dropping them mid-attack as a free action and continuing to pummel the enemy with his claw attacks, considering them secondary.
I've seen no example of this action in any Bestiary, and the Natural Attacks section of the Bestiary doesn't clear this little tidbit up for me. I did find this, but I'm not sure where it's from other than somewhere on these forums:
Can a creature make a slam or claw attack when both his hands are used for something else, such as holding a two-handed weapon?As long as the creature can easily let go with one hand, yes. A two-handed weapon requires two hands to wield in combat, but not to hold. A frost giant could choose to make a slam attack instead of a greataxe attack without having to drop the greataxe.
On the other hand, a frost giant carrying a heavy weight in both arms doesn’t have a free hand to use for a slam attack. He’d have to drop the object (a free action) before making a slam attack.
So, you could make your full normal attack routine, and then make your slam attack at -5.
I realize that Natural Attacks have long been contradictory and rules-heavy, but if anyone can shed light on this subject and explain whether or not this is achievable and why, I'd be greatly appreciative.
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As the natural attacks section of the universal monster rules states: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)."
Whatever appendage he uses to make weapon attacks can't also be used to make natural attacks in the same round. This applies even to the frost giant, if he first takes a swing with his greataxe (using both hands).
As the natural attacks section of the universal monster rules states: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)."
Whatever appendage he uses to make weapon attacks can't also be used to make natural attacks in the same round. This applies even to the frost giant, if he first takes a swing with his greataxe (using both hands).
Exactly.
According to the core rulebook: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword."
Once you attack with a manufactured weapon, that limb's attack is effectively "spent," regardless of whether the limb is holding anything.
(although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)
Like anyone else, I've read that section about a hundred times, but keywords like 'often' lend me to believe there are exceptions.
Also, the point my PC brings up: Clearly at the time of determining whether or not his natural claws have something 'clutched in that limb', he does NOT have a weapon clutched in that limb. As...well...he dropped them as a free action.At what point is it determined what appendages are used to make weapon attacks? At the beginning of the Full-Attack Action? Prior to each individual attack?
Once you attack with a manufactured weapon, that limb's attack is effectively "spent," regardless of whether the limb is holding anything.
Now, see that sort of makes more sense to me
This brings us to a new question: If he were to activate both of his weapons' Dancing quality, leaving both his hands unoccupied, could he then achieve this?
Once you attack with a manufactured weapon, that limb's attack is effectively "spent," regardless of whether the limb is holding anything.Now, see that sort of makes more sense to me
This brings us to a new question: If he were to activate both of his weapons' Dancing quality, leaving both his hands unoccupied, could he then achieve this?
Once it is dancing he is no longer using that limb to attack with it. That's the whole point of a dancing weapon.
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Now, see that sort of makes more sense to meThis brings us to a new question: If he were to activate both of his weapons' Dancing quality, leaving both his hands unoccupied, could he then achieve this?
You could but only if you hadn't made attacks with those weapons, with those limbs, during the same turn.