I know that alignment is an over debated element of d20 but I would like to know your opinions in a few cases.
1) Would you allow an monk to be lawful if he is disciplined, obey to his schools laws but disobeys all the laws of the other societies? For example an evil monk whose school/monastery believes in a certain god who demands to rule all others with any means necessary.
Is this monk considered lawful.
2) My question generally is about the binary meaning of lawfulness. One considering the laws of the societies and the other one considering the personal discipline and code of honor. If someone satisfies only one of these conditions, is he lawful or he must be neutral in the chaos - law axis.
1) Would you allow an monk to be lawful if he is disciplined, obey to his schools laws but disobeys all the laws of the other societies? For example an evil monk whose school/monastery believes in a certain god who demands to rule all others with any means necessary.
Is this monk considered lawful.
1) Lawful Evil: A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order, but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but
is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.He follows his code of conduct, but is loath to break laws.
2) If someone satisfies only one of these conditions, is he lawful or he must be neutral in the chaos - law axis.
Yes he is lawful either way, but he would seek to change the laws to suit himself and only reluctantly break them.
Thank you for answering.
Basically my question is about how strong "loath to break laws" is?
He breaks the law only when he has to and have no other way? So it means just that breaking the law is not his first choice of handling a situation or does it mean something stronger?
The thing to remember is: a Lawful person believes in order.
Someone that's self-disciplined still believes in the concept of law and order, but might not agree philosophically with a particular law that helps people or is 'weak'.
lawful in the "outer planar sense" is all about order/system/discipline/obedience. Obeying a greater force than the local laws is not chaotic.
My suggestion to you, though, is simply to make a new special alignment for this religion, and allow them to be monks. Bottom line is: if you bought the game and want to play this character, then do it!
With regards to detect/smite/protection spells, either treat as lawful evil, or keep reading.
The question is whether you would consider the religion itself (and hence the order) as lawful. That depends on how religion and alignment works in your campaign, and whether this megalomanic god is fighting one side at a time or everyone at once.
In my campaign, if this god is allied (for now) with _any_ side, I would rate him as having that alignment (for now) regardless of his personality. If the chaos gods treat him as a friend he slowly and systematically tears down the lawful ones, the the gods treat him as chaotic and mortal monks shouldnt argue - they should be allowed to stay monks though.
If he is fighting everyone, then he is not neutral (he doesn't want balance) nor would i really qualify it as any of the evils. In that case I would make a special alignment that in game mechanics would count as "the opposite of the caster". That would obviously create all kinds of problems with regards to any clerics in the party, but what do you expect if you work for the god that pisses off absolutely everyone else?
The thing to remember is: a Lawful person believes in order.
Someone that's self-disciplined still believes in the concept of law and order, but might not agree philosophically with a particular law that helps people or is 'weak'.
Thanks!
Lawful doesn't mean you have to obey every single law, even if it happens to be legitimate where you are right now.
Alignment can be a curse or a blessing. If you use it as a straitjacket, it'll be a curse rather than a blessing.
I think the laws/rules/edicts of his own religion take precedence. He doesn't necessatily have to accept the authority of other bodies to make laws, and I can totally see a monk of an evil order devoting himself to replacing one lawful authority with another more to his liking.
That said, this doesn't give him a license to do anything he wants and still be considered lawful. If his actions can be reliably predicted to bring chaos to this society, then he isn't acting in a lawful way.
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1) ...Is this monk considered lawful.
In my own campaigns, absolutely. Being lawful means having a code, not necessarily changing it to suit someone else. He might even break laws if they go against his code... and STILL be lawful.
2) My question generally is about the binary meaning of lawfulness. One considering the laws of the societies and the other one considering the personal discipline and code of honor. If someone satisfies only one of these conditions, is he lawful or he must be neutral in the chaos - law axis.
Per my answer above, yes.
Ya gotta temper all the answers you get on alignment with the understanding that you're gonna see a LOT of different interpretations. None of them are absolutely right. Even what I said is just a general guideline... from campaign to campaign, this could be very, very different. Lawfulness in a campaign set in the Midnight setting is probably quite different from Lawfulness in Golarion.... or, at least most of it.
2) My question generally is about the binary meaning of lawfulness. One considering the laws of the societies and the other one considering the personal discipline and code of honor. If someone satisfies only one of these conditions, is he lawful or he must be neutral in the chaos - law axis.
I agree with Tanis in the fact that LAW is about Order, with a capital "O". This can lead to high discipline and a code of honor, but it doesn't have to. Similarly, personal discipline and a Code of Honor can be justified by other things that a Lawful alignment.
But Order will ultimately lead to consistency, and between a code (lets say the monk's religious tenants) and another (the nation's civil laws) that are conflicting, one HAS to predominate over the other, leading to seemingly "unlawful" behavior.
As for allowing this or not, I tend to allow pretty much any character's concept as long as the golden rule of "don't be a jackass to me or other players" is respected.
'findel
Alignment can be a curse or a blessing. If you use it as a straitjacket, it'll be a curse rather than a blessing.
Definitely.
Thanks guys for your ideas and suggestions. We were talking about these things as a party for more than 7 years and it is nice to hear some ideas from the out side.