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I've come up with some minor fixes to round out a few of the non-caster martial classes.
They are pretty minor, but they make these classes flow somewhat closer to their older edition counterparts. I find it interesting that most casters get more than one good save (except wizards and Sorcerers) while the non-casters got left out in the cold. I ommited monks due to their pseudo-magical class abilities and their already high saves.
The last parts about feats apply to all classes which qualify.
Simple proposition and fixes
Fighters
Fighters get one additional "Good" saving throw besides Fortitude. This is chosen at the first level of the class and cannot be changed at a later time. At 1st level the fighter may opt to have either Reflex or Will be his second "Good" save path. The saving throw catagory which is not selected remains unchanged.
Barbarians
Barbarians now get a "Good" save path for Reflex saving throws.
Rogue
Rogues get one additional "Good" saving throw besides Reflex. This is chosen at the first level of the class and cannot be changed at a later time. At 1st level the rogue may opt to have either Fortitude or Will be his second "Good" save path. The saving throw catagory which is not selected remains unchanged.
Cavalier
Cavaliers now get a "Good" save path for Will saving throws.
Changes to feats – These are now considered “combat feats”*
Iron Will and Improved Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes
Great Fortitude and Improved Great Fortitude
The above listed feats can be selected with any combat feat slot or class ability which allows the selection of combat feats.
Let me know what you guys think.
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I've often heard it said that 'Fighters had the best saves in 1st/2nd Edition', but I think some of that is rosy-spectacled nostalgia.
The 1st-level Fighters had some really crappy saves at 1st level, but their saving grace was that their saves improved faster than the other classes, so that they caught up and surpassed the other classes.
In 3E/PF, Good saves seem to become effective immunities too soon, but Poor saves are always an Achilles heel.
How about a middle 'Fair' progression, starting at the Poor baseline of +0, but progressing at the Good rate of +1 per 2 class levels?
A PC with Good/Fair/Poor saves, would thus end his career at level 20 with base saves of +12/+10/+6.
I think houserulers/writers of new material would find it far easier to justify a class getting a one-step improvement (Poor to Fair; Fair to Good), than leaping from Poor to Good.*
*or the reverse case, of reducing a save category 1 step being less crippling.
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I've often heard it said that 'Fighters had the best saves in 1st/2nd Edition', but I think some of that is rosy-spectacled nostalgia.
The 1st-level Fighters had some really crappy saves at 1st level, but their saving grace was that their saves improved faster than the other classes, so that they caught up and surpassed the other classes.
In 3E/PF, Good saves seem to become effective immunities too soon, but Poor saves are always an Achilles heel.
How about a middle 'Fair' progression, starting at the Poor baseline of +0, but progressing at the Good rate of +1 per 2 class levels?A PC with Good/Fair/Poor saves, would thus end his career at level 20 with base saves of +12/+10/+6.
I think houserulers/writers of new material would find it far easier to justify a class getting a one-step improvement (Poor to Fair; Fair to Good), than leaping from Poor to Good.*
*or the reverse case, of reducing a save category 1 step being less crippling.
I have some hybrid classes (Fighter/Mage) that use a slower xp progression system but are closer to 1st/2nd ed than what 3.0 offers for multiclass. I have "fair" saves for any non shared saves - in the Fighter/mage case he now gets a "fair" will & fort save. So I can see the strength of a middle ground.
IDK, I don't think that giving the fighter the choice of adding Will or Reflex (which can be tied to the type of fighter they want to make) as an additional "good" save to be a huge powerup when so many caster classes get TWO good saves. I just figured that two good solid saves for the four classes I featured wouldn't be a big deal considering the current system.
I don't see it as that big of a deal considering the whole picture of the mechanics as laid out but I also see your point about it being something hard to accept as just a pure power up.
I thought it was cool idea - you could have a reflex fighter with lightning reflexes and improved lightning reflexes feats at level 1 by changing them to combat feats. I thought that would be a nice feature for the lighter dex/two weapon types.
Maybe too much too fast?
Edit: BTW, I appreciate the critique Snorter, it's always good to get feedback and that what I was looking for. I'm going play around with some "fair" save numbers vs spell at level to see what kind of bonuses theses classes will be looking at vs the spells they would be facing down (one of my initial considerations for the change).
I think AEG had something along the line of "fair" saves for some of their class (and some just had a plain weird progression). I do think it would be nice to have a middle ground.
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IDK, I don't think that giving the fighter the choice of adding Will or Reflex (which can be tied to the type of fighter they want to make) as an additional "good" save to be a huge powerup when so many caster classes get TWO good saves.
Well, if the system were being rebuilt from scratch, maybe some of those casters wouldn't get two Good saves, they could have one of those saves downgraded to Fair.
IMO there's too big a jump between Poor and Good (or too large a drop, if you're going the other direction). Smaller increments make it easier for designers to massage the classes to their desired result.
So, if you're concept isn't a 'Battle Cleric', is there any reason to give them Good Fort? Let the base Cleric have Fair Fort, and allow the upgrade as part of the domain abilities (War, Strength, etc).
Fair progression also works well with prestige classes; effectively, it allows you to continue with the progression of +1 per two levels (Good) or +1 per three levels (Poor), without giving away the one-time Good save bonus of +2, multiple times, which rapidly clocked up some stupid bonuses.