I've wanted to develope a Psionic system that relies on the d20 Feat system for a while. I want to do it with feats because it would do a fine job of representing wild talents and I think, if done right, it could represent being more versatile then powerful then magic while being easily recognizable as being different. Of course there are several ways of using feats to do this, which makes it difficult to actually figure out how I want to proceed. So I figured I'd open it up to the board and see what people think.
Here are some of the options I've thought of:
1) Feats in theory, Skills in practice: This would be a Star Wars-esque approach (the older additions, I never looked at Saga). Essentially you use Feats to unlock Skills that give you special powers. Now their are several ways to do this such as having a lot of skills under a limited number of Feats like Star Wars, which kind of over shoots the Wild Talent mark IMO, several feats that unlock a few skills each, or only three skills (Power <Cha>, Manipulation <Int>, Shielding <Wis>) with Feats unlocking different ways to use them. These are just the ones I thought of.
2) Unique Power Tree Feats: Each feat would either provide or alter a power. Think of it sort of like using Feats to buy a class feature like Rage or Bardic Music.
3) Feats in theory, Spell-like abilities in practice: Think Dragon Marks from Eberron, only with one or two more levels of feats. I think this would work well for Wild Talents but actually making classes for it would leave me feeling very 4th Ed. Still, it's something to consider.
Things to consider:
1) Transparency of Psionics and Magic: I'm all for it but, depending how it turns out, psionics might need to be seperate. Only playtesting will solve that though.
2) Psychic Focus: I liked the concept from 3.5. It might be useful for maintaining a base level power or for actual psychic classes to use psionic powers on a regular basis
3) Points: point systems already exist within Feats, like Stunning Blow. It might be a good way to activate powers.
4) Classes: What classes to put in and how to work them. I'd like to provide modifications to monks so you could build one that selects psychic powers with their bonus feats and possibly use Ki with them. Psychic Warriors could become a modified Fighter.
Powers: a lot of the names bugged me for the power categories, here are what I'd go with (not set in stone):
Biokinesis: Altering the body to better suit your surroundings, heal your self, get natural weapons, shapechanging, etc. Primarily focused on the self with higher levels being able to futz with others a bit.
Clarisentience: Remote Viewing, Post and Precognition, Mediums, Astral Projection, etc. The normal stuff.
Psychokinesis: Manipulating energy through will whether it's cold, electricity, heat, or force. I'm not including Acid, I just can't bring myself to seeing it as actual energy. It could be an option for Biokinetics though.
Psychoportation: Manipulating space and time through will. Not just teleportation but altering a space to seem longer or shorter than it is or allowing you to effectively slip through a crack.
Vitakinesis: It would incompass both healing others (example: psychic surgery) and psychic vampirism. primarily applies towards others. I'd give them mental healing as well, even though it might be close to telepathy.
Telepathy: Mind reading, Empathy, Empathic and Psychic Suggestion (emotion vs idea). What you normally expect.
So hopefully that lays the ground work. Thoughts? Ideas?
Greetings!
I started a similar thread: Psionics -- A Different Take
You'll have to forgive me for not knowing how to set up a link to it.
You should check it out.
We've gone back and forth about feats and spell-like abilities.
Greetings!
I started a similar thread: Psionics -- A Different Take
You'll have to forgive me for not knowing how to set up a link to it.
You should check it out.
We've gone back and forth about feats and spell-like abilities.
I've actually been checking it out for ideas, I would have posted there except for the back and forth over the system, sorry :(. Since my intent is to go Feat based I thought I might be cluttering your thread up/highjacking it.
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I started a similar thread: Psionics -- A Different Take
Hopefully link'd :D
x.x Completely forgot to reply to the actual Original Post :P
I'm personally in favor of the Feat/Skill option out of those presented. I like the Cha/Int/Wis idea a whole lot. I never understood why Psionic characters were "masters of their mind", but only needed one mental stat. I like how this would make Psionic characters with overall higher mental stats.
Also, I'd throw out the suggestion: since they're "skills" have a check needed to manifest them. Yes, that would be more rolling, but I think it's worth it. Plus, just think of it: rolling a 1 could have consequences on your mind, which I've always been in favor of! And this also offsets the spontaneity and lack of spell failure to put it on track with Arcane classes in terms of balance.
Concluding, I'd just like to point out (again) that 3.5 psionics work fine with PFRPG, and the Dreamscarred Press Pathfinder Psionics are looking nice as well.
Good day :)
Hopefully link'd :Dx.x Completely forgot to reply to the actual Original Post :P
I'm personally in favor of the Feat/Skill option out of those presented. I like the Cha/Int/Wis idea a whole lot. I never understood why Psionic characters were "masters of their mind", but only needed one mental stat. I like how this would make Psionic characters with overall higher mental stats.
Also, I'd throw out the suggestion: since they're "skills" have a check needed to manifest them. Yes, that would be more rolling, but I think it's worth it. Plus, just think of it: rolling a 1 could have consequences on your mind, which I've always been in favor of! And this also offsets the spontaneity and lack of spell failure to put it on track with Arcane classes in terms of balance.
Concluding, I'd just like to point out (again) that 3.5 psionics work fine with PFRPG, and the Dreamscarred Press Pathfinder Psionics are looking nice as well.
Good day :)
I'm aware that 3.5 works, I just never really cared for it. I was more interested it in 2nd Ed and the only thing that made me like the idea of psionics were the concepts presented in Eberron, partiuclarly Secrets of Sarlona. I think using Feats would have been a better choice personally.
As for the Feat/Skill option, while I think it has merit, I also think it has complications too (but then again if there was a perfect rpg system, there'd only be one rpg). First there is determining what powers are availible, what skill set to go with, and how broad or narrow the catagories are. Second, actually getting all skills to work on an equal level for each power will be difficult. Third is how the powers scale.
Say we go with the 3 skills. There is going to be some disconnect on I have X power and my skills are maxed out (because why wouldn't you, another issue) and I pick up Y power. Now I'm just as good at X and Y even though I just started using Y. Some of this can be mitigated by having feat trees so that if you have the Tier 3 Feat of Pyrokinesis and you pick up the Tier 1 Empathy you're obviously better with fire then emotions. Next you have to figure out how the skills interact with the powers and still make them useful like, using Empathy, using Power to alter emotions, Manipulation to sense them, and Shielding to thwart attacks. Finally having it all combine so you can get useful, scaling, and balance results that remain flexible.
I think the skill check would be good enough for activating the power. It seems kind of wierd to me to have a skill check to activae and one to determine result on top of rolls for attack and/or saving throws.
I figure saves would equal the skill check, so Skill Focus and similar Feats might be a good thing to avoid. I'd also say that Psionic skills would be class skill for only psychic classes.
On a side note, I was thinking the other day that I'd like to have psionics that dealt with dreams. Not just travelling and altering them but pulling things out of them to use. As I said, I liked what Eberron did.
I wasn't planning on tackling psionics myself, but I had an apostrophe ("Don't you mean epiphany?" -- "Yeah, one of them too!"). It's inspired quite a bit by 2nd edition (especially in terms of the powers), and the class is a hybrid psion/psychic warrior (as opposed to separate classes). So here's a feat-based concept for psionics:
Being Psionic: Any character with a Psi Pool (1+ Psi points) is considered to be psionic. They are capable of gaining (and also expending) their psionic focus. Any character with a Psi Pool can gain psionic feats. There are several ways a character can become psionic—the character trait Psionic Gift, the Wild Talent feat, belonging to a psionic race, or taking levels in the Psionicist class.
New Character Trait: The following character trait should be allowed for players interested in playing a psionic character. The default category for this trait is Magic, however, a psionic trait category could be added with other traits.
Psionic Gift—Either through exposure to psionics, deliberate training, or a fluke of nature, you possess psionic potential. You gain a Psi Pool of 1, or increase your Psi Pool by +1.
Revised Feat:
Wild Talent [General]
Your mind wakes to a previously unrealized talent for psionics.
Benefit: You gain a Psi Pool of 2, or increase your Psi Pool by +2.
Psionicist:
Hit Die: d8
Base Attack Progression: 3/4 HD
Saving Throws: All Good
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Class Features:
Weapon & Armor Proficiency: A psionicist is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the short sword and shortbow. Psionicists are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
Psionic (Su): At 1st level a psionicist gains a Psi Pool equal to 1/2 their class level + their Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). This is in addition to Psi Points gained from psionic feats (including those gained as class features) and other sources.
Bonus Psionic Feats (Su): At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a psionicist gains a bonus psionic feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement.
Initiate Powers (Su): At 1st level, a psionicist gains Initiate Powers as a bonus feat.
Independent Studies 1: At 1st level, a psionicist selects an ability from the following list.
Combat Technique (Ex): The psionicist gains a combat feat as a bonus feat. The psionicist must meet all prerequisites for this feat.
Metaphysical Discovery 1 (Su): Choose a metamagic feat that adjusts a spell's level by no more than one spell slot. The psionicist can now apply this feat to their psionic powers. This does not alter the time it takes to activate the power. To use this ability, the psionicist must (as a free action) expend a number of Psi points from their Psi Pool equal to the spell slot adjustment plus the number of times that the metaphysical discovery ability has been used that day (including this usage). This is in addition to the cost of activating the power.
For example, if a psionicist uses this ability for the first time in a day to apply Extend Spell to a power, then the cost would be 2 Psi points (1 for the metamagic feat, 1 for the first use of metaphysical discovery), in addition to the cost of activating the power itself. If the psionicist then used Extend Spell to modify a second power (whether the same or a different power), than the cost would be 3 Psi points (1 for the metamagic feat, 2 for the second use).
Note: the Heighten Spell metamagic feat may be selected, but the maximum spell slot adjustment allowed is +1 at 1st–4th level, +2 at 5th–9th level, +3 at 10th–14th level, and +4 at 15th level or higher.
Specialized Training (Ex): The psionicist gains Skill Focus as a bonus feat.
Independent Studies 2: At 5th level, a psionicist selects an ability from the following list.
Combat Technique (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Metaphysical Discovery 2 (Su): As metaphysical discovery I, except that the psionicist may select a metamagic feat that adjusts a spell's level by no more than two spell slots.
Specialized Training (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Independent Studies 3: At 10th level, a psionicist selects an ability from the following list.
Combat Technique (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Metaphysical Discovery 3 (Su): As metaphysical discovery 1, except that the psionicist may select a metamagic feat that adjusts a spell's level by no more than three spell slots.
Specialized Training (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Independent Studies 4: At 15th level, a psionicist selects an ability from the following list.
Combat Technique (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Metaphysical Discovery 4 (Su): As metaphysical discovery 1, except that the psionicist may select a metamagic feat that adjusts a spell's level by no more than four spell slots.
Specialized Training (Ex): As independent studies 1.
Dual Mind (Su): At 20th level, whenever a psionicist is psionically focused, they gain access to the dual mind ability. This grants several benefits.
First, whenever the psionicist must roll a Will save, they may make an additional roll and take the best result.
Second, once per round (as a free action) the psionicist may spend 4 Psi points from their Psi Pool to gain an extra standard action that can only be used for a purely mental activity (such as activating a power).
Psionic Focus: Many psionic feats require the character to be psionically focused in order to use them, while others require the character to expend their psionic focus instead. A character that is psionically focused remains that way until he expends his focus, becomes unconscious, goes to sleep (or its equivalent), or until their Psi Pool drops to 0.
A character that is psionically focused can also expend their focus to "take 15" on a concentration check (this is just like taking 10, only treat the die roll as a 15 instead).
Any character with at least 1 point in their Psi Pool can gain psionic focus by meditating. This requires a DC 20 concentration check which takes a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Concentration: Psionic Characters can make concentration checks just like a spell-caster does. This includes all the uses of concentration listed in the magic section of the core rulebook. Psionic characters always use their total character level (or hit dice) and their Wisdom modifier when making concentration checks dealing with psionics.
Psi Pool: Psionic characters have a pool of psionic points (Psi points) that they can expend to use certain psionic feats. A character must have at least 1 Psi point in their Psi Pool in order to be psionically focused.
A character's Psi Pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Psionic Feats: Psionic feats are available only to characters with a Psi Pool (or creatures with abilities that are described as psionic). Psionic feats are supernatural abilities.
When converting existing psionic feats, they should (in addition to their listed benefit) increase the character's Psi Pool by +1. Feats that grant psionic strength points should be disallowed.
The following is a list of appropriate psionic feats (altered prerequisites are listed in parenthesis): Aligned Attack, Deep Impact, Fell Shot, Focused Sunder, Ghost Attack, Greater Psionic Fist, Greater Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Weapon, Inquisitor, Mental Leap (Str 13, Acrobatics 2 ranks), Narrow Mind, Psionic Body, Psionic Charge, Psionic Dodge, Psionic Fist, Psionic Meditation (Wis 13, character level 4), Psionic Shot, Psionic Weapon, Return Shot, Speed of Thought, Unavoidable Strike, Up The Walls, Wounding Attack.
Choose a discipline. Any powers you use from that discipline are more difficult to resist.
Benefit: Add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against powers from the discipline you select.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new discipline.
Greater Discipline Focus [Psionic]
Choose a discipline to which you have already applied the Discipline Focus feat. Any powers you use from that discipline are very hard to resist.
Prerequisite: Discipline Focus
Benefit: Add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against powers from the discipline you select. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Discipline Focus.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new discipline to which you already have applied the Discipline Focus feat.
Initiate Powers [Psionic]
You unlock some rudimentary psionic powers.
Benefit: Increase your Psi Pool by +1. Choose three (3) powers from the Initiate Powers list. You gain these powers as spell-like abilities. As long as you are psionically focused, you can use any of these abilities at-will.
Your caster level for these abilities equals your character level. These abilities are considered to be 0-level. The save DC for these abilities equals 10 + your Wisdom modifier.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, choose three new powers.
Novice Power [Psionic]
You develop a new psionic power.
Prerequisite: Initiate Powers, Wisdom 11+
Benefit: Increase your Psi Pool by +1. Choose one power from the Novice Powers list. You gain this power as a spell-like ability. Each time you wish to use this ability you must expend 1 Psi point from your Psi Pool.
Your caster level for this ability equals your character level. This ability is considered to be 2nd level. The save DC for this ability equals 12 + your Wisdom modifier.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, choose a new power.
Lesser Power [Psionic]
Your develop a new psionic power.
Prerequisite: Novice Power, Wisdom 13+, character level 5th
Benefit: Increase your Psi Pool by +1. Choose one power from the Lesser Powers list. You gain this power as a spell-like ability. Each time you wish to use this ability you must expend 2 Psi points from your Psi Pool.
Your caster level for this ability equals your character level. This ability is considered to be 4th level. The save DC for this ability equals 14 + your Wisdom modifier.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, choose a new power.
See the Power Chain section for additional rules.
Greater Power [Psionic]
Your develop a new psionic power.
Prerequisite: Lesser Power, Wisdom 15+, character level 10th
Benefit: Increase your Psi Pool by +1. Choose one power from the Greater Powers list. You gain this power as a spell-like ability. Each time you wish to use this ability you must expend 3 Psi points from your Psi Pool.
Your caster level for this ability equals your character level. This ability is considered to be 6th level. The save DC for this ability equals 16 + your Wisdom modifier.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, choose a new power.
See the Power Chain section for additional rules.
Master Power [Psionic]
Your develop a new psionic power.
Prerequisite: Greater Power, Wisdom 17+, character level 15th
Benefit: Increase your Psi Pool by +1. Choose one power from the Master Powers list. You gain this power as a spell-like ability. Each time you wish to use this ability, you must expend 4 Psi points from your Psi Pool.
Your caster level for this ability equals your character level. This ability is considered to be 8th level. The save DC for this ability equals 18 + your Wisdom modifier.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you select it, choose a new power.
See the Power Chain section for additional rules.
Psionic Powers: The psionic feats that grant access to spell-like abilities use the following lists, which are broken into five tiers (or levels of mastery). Initiate powers are the lowest, while master powers are the highest. These powers function exactly like the spell of the same name, except that they are spell-like abilities. They require the normal amount of time to activate (expending Psi points from the character's Psi Pool is part of this action).
Disciplines: There are five psionic disciplines— clairsentience, psychokinesis, psychometabolism, psychoportation, and telepathy. Each tier of powers are further subdivided by discipline. A character is not limited to choosing their powers from specific disciplines.
Initiate Powers:
Clairsentience— detect poison, know direction
Psychokinesis— flare, light, mage hand, mending, open/close
Psychometabolism— bleed, resistance, touch of fatigue, virtue
Psychoportation— [None]
Telepathy— daze, lullaby
Novice Powers:
Clairsentience— see invisibility, status, true strike
Psychokinesis— blur, chill metal, endure elements, feather fall, heat metal, jump, levitate, pyrotechnics, resist energy
Psychometabolism— alter self, barkskin, darkvision, delay poison, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, false life, reduce person, shocking grasp, spider climb
Psychoportation— blink, summon monster II
Telepathy— calm emotions, cause fear, charm person, daze monster, detect thoughts, hold person, hypnotism, scare, sleep
Lesser Powers:
Clairsentience— clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect scrying, discern lies, nondetection, tongues
Psychokinesis— displacement, fly, freedom of movement, invisibility, minor creation, protection from energy, resilient sphere, water walk
Psychometabolism— cure moderate wounds, gaseous form, inflict moderate wounds, neutralize poison, poison, polymorph, restoration–lesser, rusting grasp, vampiric touch, water breathing
Psychoportation— dimension door, summon monster IV
Telepathy— charm monster, confusion, crushing despair, deep slumber, fear, geas–lesser, heroism, modify memory, phantasmal killer, rage, suggestion
Greater Powers:
Clairsentience— scrying–greater, true seeing
Psychokinesis— invisibility–greater, major creation, overland flight, telekinesis
Psychometabolism— baleful polymorph, cure critical wounds, inflict critical wounds, polymorph–greater, stoneskin
Psychoportation— dismissal, plane shift, summon monster VI, teleport
Telepathy— dominate person, dream, feeblemind, geas/quest, heroism–greater, hold monster, nightmare, sending, suggestion–mass, telepathic bond
Master Powers:
Clairsentience— discern location, foresight, moment of prescience
Psychokinesis— disintegrate, telekinetic sphere
Psychometabolism— restoration, shapechange, slay living
Psychoportation— maze, summon monster VIII, teleport object, teleport–greater
Telepathy— astral projection, charm monster–mass, demand, dominate monster, hold monster–mass, insanity, mind blank, power word stun, weird
Power Chains: Quite a few of the powers have improved versions at higher tiers, forming a chain of linked abilities. When selecting a power using the Lesser Power, Greater Power, or Master Power feats, the following special rules apply: If you already know one or more of the powers in a power chain, and you select a higher version of that power with the aforementioned feat, you may also choose to replace one of those lower powers with a brand new power. This power must be from the same tier as the one replaced.
Alter self (N), polymorph (L), polymorph–greater (G), shapechange (M)
Blur (N), invisibility (L), invisibility–greater (G)
Cause fear (N), fear (L)
Charm person (N), charm monster (L), charm monster–mass (M)
Confusion (L), insanity (M)
Cure moderate wounds (L), cure critical wounds (G)
Delay poison (N), neutralize poison (L)
Dominate person (G), dominate monster (M)
Dimension door (L), teleport (G), teleport–greater (M)
Fly (L), overland flight (G)
Geas–lesser (L), geas/quest (G)
Heroism (L), heroism–greater (G)
Hold person (N), hold monster (G), hold monster–mass (M)
Inflict moderate wounds (L), inflict critical wounds (G)
Minor creation (L), major creation (G)
Nondetection (L), mind blank (M)
Phantasmal killer (L), weird (M)
Resilient sphere (L), telekinetic sphere (M)
Resist energy (N), protection from energy (L)
Restoration–lesser (L), restoration (M)
Sleep (N), deep slumber (L)
Sending (G), demand (M)
Suggestion (L), suggestion–mass (G)
Summon monster II (N), summon monster IV (L), summon monster VI (G), summon monster VIII (M)
Useful General Feats: The following feats are particularly useful to a psionic character—Combat Casting, Empower Spell-like Ability (Bestiary), Greater Spell Penetration, Quicken Spell-like Ability (Bestiary), Spell Penetration.
Note that Greater Spell Focus and Spell Focus do not apply to spell-like abilities (only to spells), and are therefore unusable. However, see the Discipline Focus and Greater Discipline Focus psionic feats.
I too have been working on a feat based psionic system and in fact I was the one who first voiced the idea of a feat based psionic system over in Weren Wu Jen thread.
The one I am working on is purely feat based which means no PSP, no skills, and kept simple. The system works on chain feats which determines the amount of power you have in your abilities based on the number of those feats owned. Also like you I was inspired by the old AD&D psionics but I am mainly looking it up for powers and how their psychic combat worked.
Go to Psionic Feat based system for Terrafumus.
Your idea of using feats and skills together is interesting and has potential but it does seem a bit to crunchy for my tastes.
I too have been working on a feat based psionic system and in fact I was the one who first voiced the idea of a feat based psionic system over in Weren Wu Jen thread.
The one I am working on is purely feat based which means no PSP, no skills, and kept simple. The system works on chain feats which determines the amount of power you have in your abilities based on the number of those feats owned. Also like you I was inspired by the old AD&D psionics but I am mainly looking it up for powers and how their psychic combat worked.
Go to Psionic Feat based system for Terrafumus.
Your idea of using feats and skills together is interesting and has potential but it does seem a bit to crunchy for my tastes.
I am wondering how difficult it would be to work in mechanics similar to rogue talents, ki points, and rage powers to the mix.....
The Paizo guys want to make Psi like magic....Which kind of kills the its not magic vibe that I liked about it.
I also understand their qualms about introducing a new set of mechanics for people to learn.
That is why I applaud you guys for thinking outside the usual solution, but also using existing mechanics to make it concept that people can pick up easily.
I too have been working on a feat based psionic system and in fact I was the one who first voiced the idea of a feat based psionic system over in Weren Wu Jen thread.
The one I am working on is purely feat based which means no PSP, no skills, and kept simple. The system works on chain feats which determines the amount of power you have in your abilities based on the number of those feats owned. Also like you I was inspired by the old AD&D psionics but I am mainly looking it up for powers and how their psychic combat worked.
Go to Psionic Feat based system for Terrafumus.
Your idea of using feats and skills together is interesting and has potential but it does seem a bit to crunchy for my tastes.
I am wondering how difficult it would be to work in mechanics similar to rogue talents, ki points, and rage powers to the mix.....
The Paizo guys want to make Psi like magic....Which kind of kills the its not magic vibe that I liked about it.
I also understand their qualms about introducing a new set of mechanics for people to learn.
That is why I applaud you guys for thinking outside the usual solution, but also using existing mechanics to make it concept that people can pick up easily.
Hey, could you drop this idea over on my thread? That is something I didn't conciser and actually would work really well with my system.
As long as the powers are restricted to feat appropriate; and not just spells in feat slots. This would be a cool idea, that i would be interested in seeing how this worked?
This would also then let no psi classes dabble in it, with current feat selections.
Would like to see more of this idea.