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Your argument is only valid if you ignore the fact that vancian casting requires 9 different pools (or 7 or whatever, depending on the class) of power points.Consider this in terms of money. Everyone with the basic literacy and math skills required to play an rpg already understands the concept of having a certain amount of currency and spending it on items which have varying costs. Whether you call the currency spell points or dollars makes no difference, same complexity.
You appear to be arguing that spending money would be simpler if you used 9 different kinds of currency, which is clearly false. It isn't appreciably harder to subtract 1 from 3 than it is to subtract 9 from 28, especially given that players already have to buy equipment with pretend money anyway.
In short, spell points that can be spent on spells of varying cost are objectively simpler and more intuitive, since one list of items is much easier to use than 9...
No theory here, real-game experience:
I played in a Ravenloft campaign where, upon request by my DM, I switched from the standard spell slots to the the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana. I can tell you that, no, the latter system's not "intuitive": like 3.x grapple, we had to constantly refer back to the the UA book to calculate cost beyond the minimum amount. Given time, it would have become easier but it will definitely be a mental challenge for anyone use to the spell slot system.
stuff about imbalance
First the powers have to scale.
Second I won't even go into the splats books. I will stay with pathfinder core which has powered wizards down a bit.
Dominate Monster=9th level spell=17th level caster, and it works for days per level which is at least 17 days
Let us see what I can do with 17 power points for dominate
First we start with a base of 7
4 points allows us to affect any monster not immune to mind affects
That is a total of 11. The issue is that the save is still based off of a 4th level power so most monsters will make the save.
I know someone will save I can up the save. I have 6 more PP I can use that ups the save DC by 3 more so now I have the save DC equal to a 7th level spell even though my power points are equal to a ninth level spell so let's recap
Actually those four pp add to the save DC as well.
In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1.
So upgrading it to affect dragons or whatever will still give a bonus to the save DC.
Dominate monster: Dc=10+9+int modifier, and it works for days
Dominate: DC=10+4(augmented to 7)+int mod, and works only for as long as long as I concentrate on it.
I think Dominate monster comes out ahead
You can just spend 4 more of those points to make it last for days per level and then two more to affect another guy without losing out on save DC. Psionic dominate wins.
Energy Missile was changed in complete psionics to only up the DC for every 2pp's spent. I know WoTC should have just put the errata in the SRD, but that does not change the facts. Yes, I have that decrepit abomination of a book :(.
Sorry, if the info is inaccurate, I didn't mean to throw out loaded questions. My general point was that it went out, meaning it was supposed to be balanced when it's supremely crazy compared to blasting spells that were out at the time. And this is back in 3.0 when blasting was good.
I'll admit most of my rage is against WotC for not doing something like I dunno, [u]playtesting[/u] some of this ONCE that would have caught these mistakes.
Which they STILL can't be bothered to do.
Energy missile damage analysis
The issue here is that I can just empower it at 9d6. Admittedly, it looks meh on paper, until I see this:
Cold
A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold missile is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.
Fire
A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.
That increases the average damage from an admittedly low 38 to a whopping 49 without any further augmentation. With the overchanneling deal, I assume you simply empower it, leading to an average damage of 73, which is something I'd expect to be pumped out by disintegrate. Without overchannel or overpower at 9d6, you deal (40*1.5) 60 average damage. At 11th level, well, let's just see here.
An 11th level monster, the elder earth elemental.
This big nasty has around 228 HP. Ouch. What's a psion to do?
Well if we overchannel and empower, we can deal 73 fire damage on average to him on a failed reflex save (Most likely he will fail with his +8), and in two rounds we deal the most damage in the party even if he saves one, probably more than everyone else combined unless it's a big party. We deal 13 less damage (60) if we use my example, but we use only 11 pp in that case. The save DC does take a hit, but I'm going to use that DC instead (DC 15+casting mod) The third round he's dead and we've won, but at what cost?
Oh, 33-35 power points out of 106 plus bonus pp. Nearly a third of our resources!
Keep in mind this is still mutli target, so we would've killed two that were close together just as quickly!
To do that kind of damage an 11th level wizard has to cast this:
For an average of 38 damage. Or he can hit and whiff with disintegrate.
How many 6th level spells does an 11th level wizard get per day?
1.
OK, that's a bit misleading.
Most likely 2.
3 if he's an evoker.
So the wizard has to blow EVERY top casting slot to get around 2/3 of the damage the psion does with a 2nd level power.
5th level spells? C'mon there has to be something, right?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/coneOfCold.htm
OK, that's not bad. but it's still 5th level.
Honestly to get near that damage the wizard has to use the best 2nd level spell for damage, scorching ray, which can average at a respectable 42 damage with no save. In order to deal 180 damage on average, the wizard needs to spend 4-5 spell slots of that level, most likely right out of his own slots. Oh no, the poor wizard, deprived of his 2nd level spells. If they were empowered, he does about that much damage at 63 with his fourth level slots. At absolute best the wizard has 2 slots of that same spell left (In which case I would award him the "You are now a sorcerer" award). Scorching ray is pretty stupid though, and in all likelihood he'll be out of it. His broken crap is done for the day. The psion still has two more encounters of this insanity, since he can basically convert 1st and 2nd level slots into high level spells, wheras the wizard can be messed up by being confronted with an air elemental or an ice devil (against whom I doubt the DM will disallow you to blow up its weapon as it's +1).
And now for something not completely different.
The Kolyarut. CR 12.
Two rounds of average damage and the Kolyarut is dead. I admit he is a tad extreme when it comes to this as he's a construct and his SR might catch a power, but hey, there's always electricity for that and a psionic equivalent of spell penetration (Which I hope we would pick up by this level)
The fact that alone, the psion can even come close to dropping the kolyarut on its own when compared to an evoker of a similar level shows just how powerful psions can get with minimal effort. assuming the typo is fixed, the save will still be 15+casting stat, which with the Kolyarut's bad saves it can easily fail like a stone golem to a construct slaying arrow.
In short: The psion can damage everything, BUT scorching ray is completely pants on head insane and wants nothing of it. The thing is: Scorching ray is stopped by about half the encounters at high level, and energy missile still remains useful since it's effectively every damage type at once (Except for force and acid, excuse me, it's just sonic that ignores hardness). Against demons it's not as useful, but you fail to understand one thing:
I had to put up around 6 wizard spells (Disintegrate, Wall of fire and fireball/lightning bolt) against that one spell to even find a comparison. The psion spell is a ton more useful at low level, and its ability to switch up damage types means knowing the monster manual can completely stop any real threat to the party aside from something with globe of invulnerability cast on it.
Keeping in line with those same abilities, I pull out an 11 power point energy ray, no empower, no cheese, just straight up fire damage.
Also no saving throw.
11d6+11. Average damage of 49. Scorching ray's average is 42. On top of that this is ONE attack roll, can be cold, and can be turned into anything else to suit the fight.
Effectively, you get to play a better sorcerer, since you get more spells and more spell selection. What the hell is the point of playing a sorcerer then?
On the aside, a lot of the powers I looked at could be augmented in some way, providing you with a lot more spells at higher level.
This isn't really munchkining either. I'm not summoning efreeti from other realms to wish me better fireballs. I'm using one feat sometimes and maxing out my power point expenditure to little effect. I'm comparing what a wizard can do to what a psion can do. Assuming the wizard preps all scorching rays, he CAN do more damage, than a psion... But he won't, since half the monsters are immune to fire later and he doesn't have access to energy substitution. On top of that his three touch attacks each have a chance to miss, while the psion has one. The bell curve damage is much less impacted by a miss on the wizard's part, but now he can no longer do his job, while the psion can still put your head back on, create astral constructs and make anti-psionic goop. Oh and damage things with fire immunity.
In general, it's actually the psion's flexibility that makes him better than the wizard in my eyes. And when you give the wizard a run for his money on damage and a number of other things I don't have the time to compare (Telepaths in particular, Metacreation being not so bad, although the meta prefix makes no freaking sense here considering you create real things not pseudo real ones), AND you can do other things?
You're better than him.
Power points really aren't complex at all. "I used 6 NO 9" isn't exactly a huge change to how you do things.
"I have x power points."
"Powers cost so many points."
"I can augment powers."
"I cannot augment past my caster level"
There, you are now an expert on psionics.
It's the difference between "I have 5 1 slots 5 2 slots 4 3 slots and 3 4 slots" of the sorcerer and "I have 200 points"
Well, that's a much better explanation of it than I've ever heard, but it still seems terribly artificial. Especially once you figure in that you don't need to cast your highest level first and lose access to it if the lower slots aren't "filled" anymore, or that high ability scores would let you fill those lower slots (and thus should give you access to higher) well before you get it by class.
Yes, it does appear a bit artificial. Actually, i would say that it looks like an afterthought.
And no, obviously you don't have to start casting your 1st level spell before you can cast your second spells (or the other way around?). The quantum mechanic analogy is just that: an analogy. I don't think mr. Gygax said "you know what would be cool in our new fantasy RPG concept? Quantum mechanics!"
What I meant to say is that in Vancian magic, the concept of "steps", or spell level, is an important one. Why are wizard and sorcerers stuck with quantum-like levels of spell mastery? I don't know and they probably don't either. But its an universal law that binds all spellcaster together and while some abilities and metamagic stuff allow them to "cheat" around it, they have to deal with this reality. and that's where it start to become interesting.
I find it SO ironical that I'm actually advocating IN FAVOR of the Vancian system while I fought it for so long and until so recently. But in the end, I like the Vancian system because 1) it works well mechanically, and the rest of the game is (somewhat) balanced around it and, 2) it has character. It has its uniqueness. For all of its flaws (because lets be realistic, it DOES have flaws), it has more flavor than most magic systems around. Many are rather blend and their greatest advantage (awesome flexibility) becomes their biggest flaw (lack of boundaries). Ars Magica comes close to an ideal, but we can't deny that this system put spellcasters at the top of the world (which incidentally is the concept of the game). While I think its cool, I don't want that for my D&D/Pathfinder game.
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And this is where the arguments against power points break down. Wizards in effect do have power points. They have 9 different types of power points in fact, and each point must be accounted for in advance. So we have a power point system which is designed to be as inflexible as possible, is unnecessarily complicated and requires lots of bookkeeping. In this regard, simple spell points are clearly the better choice in every regard.
I would have to disagree with that. The spell point system is every bit as complex, if not more so then the current slot based system. Comparing the psion to the sorcerer and the psions system is hands down more complex and needs both more book keeping and a better understanding of how they system works from all parties to be used correctly
The spell slots are easy, you get x amount of this level. It is less book keeping as a whole then "I had 28 points, this power cost 6, no 9 as I argumented it". Both are basic math, but one your taking 1 way from three and the other is 9 from 28
Now I'll give ya wizards and clerics are more complex, but that is not because of slots. That is because of having to prepare them ahead of time. Something spell points would not help a single bit as you would still have to spend your points ahead of time.
Run a wizard or cleric, then run a sorcerer or oracle, you will notice the book keeping difference. And that difference is not caused by the system, but how those classes use the system.
No less book keeping than ensuring your player doesn't cast more than 3 third level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 4 1st levels spells, etc.
Have your player call out his points and mark them down.
I challenge the idea that videogames are responsible for people not liking Vancian magic. Firstly, I remember reading alternative RPG spell systems (grounded in mythology and history) that were mana-based as early as 1986.
I agree. The only reason Vancian magic is still in existence is because for 30+ years it has been part of D&D, and D&D is still the most popular RPG ever. If you look at all the other RPGs that have been created there have always been a variety of magic rule-systems.
I'm not an advocate of changing the wizard's mechanic, it's part of our shared heritage of D&D. I'm all for some of you publishing alternative systems for those of use who like variants.
No less book keeping than ensuring your player doesn't cast more than 3 third level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 4 1st levels spells, etc.
Have your player call out his points and mark them down.
I'm sorry, but I have to say checking off a box next to a spell name is way easier book-keeping than doing math during game. I know a wizard has more book-keeping prep time, but during game it is way fast and easy.
Sorcerer is the easiest with a bunch of check boxes next to spell level.
I trust my players not to cheat, so I don't feel the need to double-check their work every time.
I challenge the idea that videogames are responsible for people not liking Vancian magic. Firstly, I remember reading alternative RPG spell systems (grounded in mythology and history) that were mana-based as early as 1986.I agree. The only reason Vancian magic is still in existence is because for 30+ years it has been part of D&D, and D&D is still the most popular RPG ever. If you look at all the other RPGs that have been created there have always been a variety of magic rule-systems.
I'm not an advocate of changing the wizard's mechanic, it's part of our shared heritage of D&D. I'm all for some of you publishing alternative systems for those of use who like variants.
Pathfinder should so use the Drain System from Shadowrun for it's magic.
"I cast Magic Missile"!
"I roll Will"!
"I fail"!
*Thud*
I challenge the idea that videogames are responsible for people not liking Vancian magic. Firstly, I remember reading alternative RPG spell systems (grounded in mythology and history) that were mana-based as early as 1986.
First off never once did I say video games were behind folks not liking the system. Video games are behind the "mana" type style being thought of as the norm. And they are I feel the driving force behind mana systems being so common,
That was the point of my post, Vancian casting is old school, but no less wrong then a mana based system. At the time it was created it was not outside the norm and for a time could be thought of as the norm.
What is and is not "the norm" changes over time, it always does. Vanican style casting is simply no less illogical or less intuitive then a basic casting system, nor is it harder to learn or explain.
My post as this one does points out that the "man" pool was not always the norm of casting and is only that way now days because of video games.
There is more then 1 or 2 ways to show spell casting in a game and they do not neatly fall into vancian or spell points. Those are but two ways to show how casting works.
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Extra Effort: A spell-caster can regain the use of a spell-slot or spontaneously prepare a spell in an empty spell slot as a free action. Doing so causes the spell-caster to gain the fatigued condition the turn after doing so. A fatigued spell caster gains the exhausted the turn after using this. An exhausted character gains the unconscious condition.
There, fatigue in your spell-casting system adding some flexibility for all spell-casters.
No less book keeping than ensuring your player doesn't cast more than 3 third level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 4 1st levels spells, etc.Have your player call out his points and mark them down.
Sorry but yes, far, far less book keeping in game. Compare a psion to a sorcerer and the psion takes more book keeping then the sorcerer
No theory here, real-game experience:I played in a Ravenloft campaign where, upon request by my DM, I switched from the standard spell slots to the the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana. I can tell you that, no, the latter system's not "intuitive": like 3.x grapple, we had to constantly refer back to the the UA book to calculate cost beyond the minimum amount. Given time, it would have become easier but it will definitely be a mental challenge for anyone use to the spell slot system.
And the last line raises a key point: it's only the fact that vancian is more familiar to some of us that other systems seem confusing. Ask anyone who has never played tabletop before whether they would like to play a vancian caster or a spell points caster, and every single one will prefer a power points caster, because they can understand the system right away. My real life experience in 3 decades of gaming has been that it is almost universally preferred. When you explain vancian casting to new gamers, they will almost invariably ask "why don't they just use spell points?" or something similar. First time gamers in all my games had almost no problems with psionics yet were almost always baffled and annoyed by vancian spellcasting.
It is only simpler to those of us who have used these mechanics for two or three decades, and then only by virtue of familiarity.
Every single one? Really? >.>
And the last line raises a key point: it's only the fact that vancian is more familiar to some of us that other systems seem confusing. Ask anyone who has never played tabletop before whether they would like to play a vancian caster or a spell points caster, and every single one will prefer a power points caster,
I again must disagree with this. First off a novice player would not know what a "spell point" is, a mana pool yes, but they would not ask for a spell point system as they really have no clue what that is. And as I stated before the slots are a form of mana pool, not hard to explain or grasp in the lest.
I have had a good amount of novice gamers and to date no one has failed to grasp the spell slot system.
Most times it is in how yo explain it, I have seen far to many gm's kinda blow the how how it works thing. We as gamers tend to forget new gamers don't know the stuff we do and simply do not explain things in ways they understand with zero working knowledge of the game or system
stuff about imbalance
Good catch and that means the save Dc is the same. How I failed to spot something I was looking for I don't know, but in any event the I guess dominate is nice, but still not broken since wizard's or psions can pump saves up if that is all they focus on.
Energy Missile was changed in complete psionics to only up the DC for every 2pp's spent. I know WoTC should have just put the errata in the SRD, but that does not change the facts. Yes, I have that decrepit abomination of a book :(.Sorry, if the info is inaccurate, I didn't mean to throw out loaded questions. My general point was that it went out, meaning it was supposed to be balanced when it's supremely crazy compared to blasting spells that were out at the time. And this is back in 3.0 when blasting was good.
I'll admit most of my rage is against WotC for not doing something like I dunno, [u]playtesting[/u] some of this ONCE that would have caught these mistakes.
Which they STILL can't be bothered to do.
I took it as an honest mistake. If I had not made the mistake of buying that book I would not have known either. The fact that I had to pay money to learn about the error...I am getting off topic.
Energy missile
11d6*3.5(average damage)=38.5+11(1 point per die)=49.5*1.5(overchanneled and empowered)=74.5 for 13ppTo make this quick 228/74.5=3 3 rounds of 13pp equals 39 pp per fight
39 pp used/106 availible=0.3679 or 36.79% of resources in one fight.
Sure psions can do this, but he will be out of power points real fast which is why a DM that has a psion novaing might want to check the player's character to make sure he is doing the numbers right. You can't push like that and keep going. You get two and 1/2 fights and you become useless. So can a psion pump that out, yeah, but in the end it makes him weaker not better. You can't be worse and still be unbalanced in the overpowered direction.Empowered multiplies damage not dice. linky
Now wizards are not made to do damage. We all know psions blast better than wizards, and probably even sorcerers.
Wizards dont need no stinking 6th level spells Transmute Rock to Mud and if needed Transmute Mud to Rock. Sit back and pelt them with ranged attacks. Two 5th level spells. Game, set, match. <--I don't watch tennis so that may not be right, but you get my point.Kolyaruts Fort +6
Fine. I will go to a 6th level spell, disintegrate. 22x3.5=77. Two casting and it is game over.We can do this all day with casters. This=end encounters.
I am sure since we are both trying to prove the other wrong all these monsters die in 3 rounds or less. After typing this I read your the rest of your thread. I guess both of us got tired of typing. :)
The psion can damage things, but the wizard can jack you up in a number of ways. Even with the rock to mud thing I could have summoned monsters to hack on those elementals without endangering a party member.
While but while the psion does things directly he does not have a lot of things that make the party better. The wizard can beat you directly or through his partners. That is why the wizard and the sorcerer are so good. This does not mean the psion is not a good class, but you try to play either one like the other and you get bad results. I actually think the sorcerer is better than a psion. The psions does a limited number of things rally well, but the arcanist just flat out do more things.If you want a blaster go psion. If you want a utility caster go arcanist.
wraithstrike wrote:
Good catch and that means the save Dc is the same. How I failed to spot something I was looking for I don't know, but in any event the I guess dominate is nice, but still not broken since wizard's or psions can pump saves up if that is all they focus on.
wraithstrike wrote:
Energy Missile was changed in complete psionics to only up the DC for every 2pp's spent. I know WoTC should have just put the errata in the SRD, but that does not change the facts. Yes, I have that decrepit abomination of a book :(.
Sorry, if the info is inaccurate, I didn't mean to throw out loaded questions. My general point was that it went out, meaning it was supposed to be balanced when it's supremely crazy compared to blasting spells that were out at the time. And this is back in 3.0 when blasting was good.
I'll admit most of my rage is against WotC for not doing something like I dunno, [u]playtesting[/u] some of this ONCE that would have caught these mistakes.Which they STILL can't be bothered to do.
I took it as an honest mistake. If I had not made the mistake of buying that book I would not have known either. The fact that I had to pay money to learn about the error...I am getting off topic.
Energy missile
11d6*3.5(average damage)=38.5+11(1 point per die)=49.5*1.5(overchanneled and empowered)=74.5 for 13pp
To make this quick 228/74.5=3 3 rounds of 13pp equals 39 pp per fight
39 pp used/106 availible=0.3679 or 36.79% of resources in one fight.
Sure psions can do this, but he will be out of power points real fast which is why a DM that has a psion novaing might want to check the player's character to make sure he is doing the numbers right. You can't push like that and keep going. You get two and 1/2 fights and you become useless. So can a psion pump that out, yeah, but in the end it makes him weaker not better. You can't be worse and still be unbalanced in the overpowered
Empowered multiplies damage not dice. linky
Now wizards are not made to do damage. We all know psions blast better than wizards, and probably even sorcerers.
With that said Wizards dont need 6th level spells Transmute Rock to Mud and if needed Transmute Mud to Rock. Sit back and pelt them with ranged attacks. Two 5th level spells. Game, set, match. <--I don't watch tennis so that may not be right, but you get my point.
Kolyaruts Fort +6
Fine. I will go to a 6th level spell, disintegrate. 22x3.5=77. Two casting and it is game over.
We can do this all day with casters. This=end encounters.
I am sure since we are both trying to prove the other wrong all these monsters die in 3 rounds or less. After typing this I read your the rest of your thread. I guess both of us got tired of typing. :)
The psion can damage things, but the wizard can jack you up in a number of ways. Even with the rock to mud thing I could have summoned monsters to hack on those elementals without endangering a party member.
While but while the psion does things directly he does not have a lot of things that make the party better. The wizard can beat you directly or through his partners. That is why the wizard and the sorcerer are so good. This does not mean the psion is not a good class, but you try to play either one like the other and you get bad results. I actually think the sorcerer is better than a psion. The psions does a limited number of things rally well, but the arcanist just flat out do more things.
If you want a blaster go psion. If you want a utility caster go arcanist.
Edit: The previous post I made can't be edited so I had to make this one, and I removing a line because I remembered it is hard to tell tone of voice. :)
This post is not like I wanted it to be, but I am tired of trying to fix it.
If subtracting 9 from 106 is too much math for you, what the hell are you doing playing a game that requires you to roll multiple dice and add in all the others along with whatever modifiers you have going on and whatever temporary bonuses are included?
"Math is bad" is a stupifying statement when we're playing a game that is built on math.
As for ease of use, I find pp to be a much easier and simpler mechanic then spell slots. Period.
Math is not bad, but spell points are more complex then the spell slots. It really is that simple. Spell points take more book keeping then the slot system as a whole. I get 5 level 1, 3 level 2 and 1 level 3 spells is easier to book keep then I get 109 spell points which I must then subtract ever changer number from each round I use them. If you can do little Indian marks ya can keep track of the slots with simple ease. The same can not be said for spell points.
And honestly for me yeah the 9-106 I would take a while doing it in my head, on paper sure, i my head take a bit longer. I am not the norm for that I know. But the spell points are much more book keeping.
If you apply this reasoning to any other area of your life, you will find this is totally false.
Do you find yourself thinking that life would be easier if you had 9 different kinds of dollars? So a regular dollar would buy a drink or a candy bar, a level two dollar could get you a light lunch, a level three dollar would get you a full dinner, a level four dollar would get you a small appliance, level five a major appliance, level six a minor medical procedure, seven an apartment, eight a car and nine a house? Oh, and you couldn't trade a level 9 for two level 8s, you can only use them for houses, etc. But it would be so much easier because you just use one dollar of the appropriate level for each purchase, right?
Do you seriously think this would make budgeting easier? Looking forward to doing your taxes next year under this system?
Unless you have an incredible fear of math, I'm guessing no. No one wants this, and it's obvious why.
Actually currency normally works in the way you just described. You normally don't buy a paper back book with several rolls of pennies. with a large appliance you generally wouldn't pay with several stacks of 1$ bills. I think most people would be suspicious if you went to make a down payment on a car or house with a briefcase full of twenties. Alternately paying for a candy bar with a 100$ bill will likely get you a "I'm sorry, we can't break that bill".
It's possible that when the system was designed that Gygax and crew weren't thinking in terms of a 3rd level spell = 3 1st level spells.
You umm do have a few types of dollars. Each nation has its own ya know which normally you can not use outside that nation.
Then ya have cash only store, or ones that will not take but a few credit cards and so forth. The some things ya can't use some money for, "sorry we can't cash that"
Your analogy needs some work
I simply am not sure what your getting at. Do you have spell points in real life? If you don't I am not sure how spell points can be applied to anything in real life.
Edit: Ninjaed by Skaorn
Actually, if I recall the complaints correctly, it's no so much the amount of bookkeeping as when it takes place. It's similar to the main argument against 3.x power attack - players taking too long calculating out the optimal choice on their action. It's not more vs less math, but the math holding up the game.
This is another issue, yes.
recalls the horror of indecisiveness 3.5 power attack using player
You ever looked at true sorcery?
Folks are still complaining about the Memorization System? What's the point? Paizo has already weighed in on their plans and I really don't think it's going to change.
You ever looked at true sorcery?Skill check to cast and non-lethal damage as the cost. I'll take that over both power points and Vancian any day.
Sounds similar to the Shadowrun method, which I love. Although in SR, a bad drain roll can cause much more than nonlethal damage... Does it incorporate an inability to magically heal that damage, though? Cause if it doesn't, then you basically just have infinite magic.
Sounds similar to the Shadowrun method, which I love. Although in SR, a bad drain roll can cause much more than nonlethal damage... Does it incorporate an inability to magically heal that damage, though? Cause if it doesn't, then you basically just have infinite magic.You ever looked at true sorcery?Skill check to cast and non-lethal damage as the cost. I'll take that over both power points and Vancian any day.
Been a few years since I read it, but is was similar to shadowrun, spells were 'seeds" you could mod, but doing so upped the DC making it harder to cast
I think ya could not heal the drain, And pretty sure there was an alt rule that allowed you to overbleed, causing real damage. Was some kind of threshold as well if I recall.
I thought it was neat, but not something my group at the time would even look at.
Been a few years since I read it, but is was similar to shadowrun, spells were 'seeds" you could mod, but doing so upped the DC making it harder to cast
I think ya could not heal the drain, And pretty sure there was an alt rule that allowed you to overbleed, causing real damage. Was some kind of threshold as well if I recall.
I thought it was neat, but not something my group at the time would even look at.
Yeah, it sounds neat. That's why I prefer official, though - groups tend to be fine with things as long as they're official, and often won't even glance at third party stuff, in my experience. -_-
I assume it'd be easy enough to convert to PF though, yeah? Considering that the casting mechanics didn't really change (well, aside form casting defensively anyway)...
Healing magic in True Sorcery only converts lethal damage to non-lethal. Your limit is when you pass out from accumulated non-lethal damage.
Ah, ok. That works too. Also neat in that you can rest for a couple hours and get part of your reserves back.
Not necessarily. I like the mana system presented in Unearthed Arcana, pretty much prepared spell casters prepare their "list of known spells" for the day, and then act as normal sorcerers. So they only prep one magic missile, one read magic, one invisibility, and one of any other spell. As the day goes on, they can cast as many magic missiles as they have spell points for, even though they only prepared one.
Not the same thing, but really not a bad idea either. More or less Ya end up with a sorcerer with a spellbook and the ability to swap out spells.
You appear to be arguing that spending money would be simpler if you used 9 different kinds of currency, which is clearly false. It isn't appreciably harder to subtract 1 from 3 than it is to subtract 9 from 28, especially given that players already have to buy equipment with pretend money anyway.
While I can't say that it's that much simpler, it might be simpler in some cases. It's not so much that you have 9 different currencies, but 9 limited resources.
It's like when you start the game, instead of putting a sheet of gold piece prices and saying "you have 150gp to spend", you say "you get 3 weapons of your choice, an armor of your choice, and a shield if you want one".In some cases that might be easier.
I can respect that. heh ever play the old Arcane age stuff back in 2e? Power point madness :)
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My favourite magic system actually was from the Dragonlance 5th Age RPG, don't remember the name of the system it actually used, but remember it was essentially a 'freeform' sort of mana-based system. If you had the Pyromancy "sphere", you could essentially create your own fireball, or wall of fire, or whatever your imagination could come up with. It had a system that enabled you to calculate how many points it would cost, and then you had to succeed on a special check of sorts in order to successfully cast the spell.
The spoiler is actually the reason I like the 3.5 pp system. It makes me feel like I'm in control, and shape the spell ("power") to my desire. As close as I can get without changing to a system like Iron Heroes, that is..
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No theory here, real-game experience:I played in a Ravenloft campaign where, upon request by my DM, I switched from the standard spell slots to the the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana. I can tell you that, no, the latter system's not "intuitive": like 3.x grapple, we had to constantly refer back to the the UA book to calculate cost beyond the minimum amount. Given time, it would have become easier but it will definitely be a mental challenge for anyone use to the spell slot system.
And the last line raises a key point: it's only the fact that vancian is more familiar to some of us that other systems seem confusing. Ask anyone who has never played tabletop before whether they would like to play a vancian caster or a spell points caster, and every single one will prefer a power points caster, because they can understand the system right away. My real life experience in 3 decades of gaming has been that it is almost universally preferred. When you explain vancian casting to new gamers, they will almost invariably ask "why don't they just use spell points?" or something similar. First time gamers in all my games had almost no problems with psionics yet were almost always baffled and annoyed by vancian spellcasting.
It is only simpler to those of us who have used these mechanics for two or three decades, and then only by virtue of familiarity.
I'd agree with your view if Pathfinder was a brand new game like DnD 4e. But it's not. As Mona said, it's built off not only the SRD, but has now already established a certain template with systems like magic. (Have you noticed how the alchemist continues to use the Vancian format?)
Why build another complex subsystem on an already complex game? Paizo has more than once said they have no one on staff really familiar with the SRD psionic rules*. I recently gamed with some teens in D&D encounters. At the end of the battle, one young lady remarked, "that was so much fun! I'll never go back to third edition!" I asked what she meant and she went on to how all she hated having to learn new rules for every little thing. Grappling was her first example, and her friends chirped in about the the 3.x turning rules.
*I've also read and heard back from enough gamers that psionics literally explodes game balance (ala ToB: Bo9S) every time they introduce it into their campaigns. Apparently it's real hard to rate via the former CR system.