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Kirth's houserules used an idea to combine multiple combat maneuvers together into three themed feat trees.
Wrestling maneuvers included grapple and trip.
Weapon Maneuvers included Disarm and Sunder
Forcing Maneuvers included Bull Rush and Overrun, and Checking (Checking is essentially what is used in the Stand Still feat - stopping the movement of an enemy through your threatened area).
Feinting remained it's own thing because it's so powerful for rogues.
I think this is a very good compromise. The grouped maneuvers fit well together thematically, and while you still ahve to take the feats to get super good at them, they aren't nearly so expensive to take for such a limited use. I especially find bull rush and overrun not worthy of taking a feat or feat tree - but together, especially with checks on movement? it suddenly becomes a thematic feat tree for a sword and board character intent on protecting his fellow adventurers.
"Wasted?" Not really.
Combat maneuvers are highly situational/tactical. Bull rush, disarm, feint, grapple, sunder, trip, etc. provide characters a way to hinder their foes more or less at will (or at least attempt to). If all you care about is dealing damage they may be "wasted," but positioning and preventing a foe from taking a full-attack action (or depriving them of a key item) can make many combats much easier for the party. There was a reason that grappling, tripping, and other "shut-down" characters were popular in 3.x...
Requiring a separate feat (or specific reach weapons) to avoid AoOs for each maneuver is a design consideration: it forces characters to specialize if they want to pull off combat maneuvers frequently.
Requiring a separate feat (or specific reach weapons) to avoid AoOs for each maneuver is a design consideration: it forces characters to specialize if they want to pull off combat maneuvers frequently.
That is PRECISELY what is in contention. The implementation is FAR too cumbersome for certain tastes ... no thanks.
Fact: feats is a rare commodity, which only fighter can get enough of to specialize in more than one maneuver. Buying feats for nothing is unheard of, so characters who invest feats in those maneuvers will try them most of the time. This is contrary to the "spur-of-the-moment" feel of special maneuvers. Yes, anyone can do them, but the penalties (AOO and lack of bonuses) makes them wary to try.
Combat Maneuvers Novice
You are learning the tricks to winning are fight are not always doing the most damage.
Gain +4 to your AC against attacks of opportunity caused by performing a Combat Maneuver.Combat Maneuver Journeyman (pre-req Combat Maneuvers Novice)
You've learned to take unique opportunities during a fight when they present themselves to gain an advantage over your opponent.
Once per minute you can use a swift...
This helps.
I agree that the solution is definitely not "more feats". If this is indeed a real problem, and if it is to be solved, it should be solved via "more uses out of existing feats" or "consolidating existing feats".
I think if you're going to consolidate some feats for your game, it might be convenient to consolidate the maneuvers after Power Attack:
Improved Power Attack Maneuvers
You may attempt Bull Rush, Overrun, and Sunder maneuvers without provoking attacks of opportunity, and you gain a +2 bonus to your CMB checks when attempting one of these maneuvers.
This as well.
Kirth's houserules used an idea to combine multiple combat maneuvers together into three themed feat trees.
Wrestling maneuvers included grapple and trip.
Weapon Maneuvers included Disarm and Sunder
Forcing Maneuvers included Bull Rush and Overrun, and Checking (Checking is essentially what is used in the Stand Still feat - stopping the movement of an enemy through your threatened area).Feinting remained it's own thing because it's so powerful for rogues.
I think this is a very good compromise. The grouped maneuvers fit well together thematically, and while you still ahve to take the feats to get super good at them, they aren't nearly so expensive to take for such a limited use. I especially find bull rush and overrun not worthy of taking a feat or feat tree - but together, especially with checks on movement? it suddenly becomes a thematic feat tree for a sword and board character intent on protecting his fellow adventurers.
And this, too.
100% agreeing on the concept. Perhaps rewording it a bit for my own set of houserules.
1) A normal feint should be a move action. You are moving, not attacking. Improved feint should be an attack action (and have BAB +6 as prereq).
2) Wrestling-style maneuvers allow for all possible unarmed maneuvers, like grappling (wrestling), disarming (jiu-jitsu), tripping (judo), bull rushing, dragging, and repositioning
3) Weapon-style maneuvers allow for tripping with a weapon, disarming with a weapon, sundering
4) Movement-style maneuvers allow for bull rushing, dragging, overrunning, and "checking"
5) Close-quarters maneuvers allow for drity trick, low blow, and grappling with a weapon
6) Those grouped-maneuvers feats would have their own trees: basic (+1 for all these maneuvers, +4 AC against the AOO), intermediate (+2 to maneuvers, escape AOO), advanced (+3 to maneuvers, generate AOO), and specialist (+4 to maneuvers, free maneuver on critical)
7) New feats: Sure Hand would give +4 defence against sunder and disarm; Sure Feet would give +4 against tripping and those movement maneuvers