Since we're on the subject of Clerics and domains, I hope some day we'll see domains play a bigger role than they currently do. Not just bonus spells to an existing spell list, but I'd like them to actually be the spell list.
Please, lets not make the books and rules too complicated here.
As I say, some great stuff here guys and I love the creativity.
The problem (for me) lay in that that Clerics in the Campaign setting we are in only allow for a very narrow channel of spheres.
Sure, if you pick and choose there are some wild and whacky concepts out there, but I would guess that similarly a lot of GM's may nix your decisions.
The problem I was finding was as a previous poster said, I believe there is more to the class than just the domains, yet when you get the domains prescribed to you, there's not a lot of addtional flavour you can add.
We had the option of a Dwarven creator God, but after playing for years with a pair of guys that only ever took the same dwarven Ftr/Clr template(names change, accent and humour never did) I am still suffering from Acute Bad Scottish/Pirate accent phobia.
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Sure, if you pick and choose there are some wild and whacky concepts out there, but I would guess that similarly a lot of GM's may nix your decisions.
Sounds like you need to play with different people. It is called Role-Playing for a reason, and the only RP restriction on a Cleric is the 1 step in alignment to their deity. Even then there are secular Clerics.
Since we're on the subject of Clerics and domains, I hope some day we'll see domains play a bigger role than they currently do. Not just bonus spells to an existing spell list, but I'd like them to actually be the spell list.
Well, I wouldn`t go that far, but I think it would be interesting to have a Cleric version of ´Focused Specialists´. For starters, what could they get in return for only having 1 Domain instead of 2? (Per Core Rules even, perhaps they could at least get double the uses of per day abilities?) Perhaps `opposing domains` (or ALL domains´) spell lists would be unavailable, i.e. even the domain spells normally on the Cleric list?
I like Cloistered Clerics, i.e. lower HD & BAB & Fort & Armor Prof, but better skills and more spell slots. I don`t think anybody should be prevented from taking Armor Proficiency via Feat, but instead make their casting subject to ASF% (this lets them use Mithril Light Armor effectively, as opposed to if they only have Light Proficiency, they can use Mithril Medium Armor with Proficiency - actually, if they don`t plan on meleeing, a Caster who doens`t have to worry about ASF can wear Heavy Armor even if they don`t have proficiency)
Since we're on the subject of Clerics and domains, I hope some day we'll see domains play a bigger role than they currently do. Not just bonus spells to an existing spell list, but I'd like them to actually be the spell list.Well, I wouldn`t go that far, but I think it would be interesting to have a Cleric version of ´Focused Specialists´. For starters, what could they get in return for only having 1 Domain instead of 2? (Per Core Rules even, perhaps they could at least get double the uses of per day abilities?) Perhaps `opposing domains` (or ALL domains´) spell lists would be unavailable, i.e. even the domain spells normally on the Cleric list?
I like Cloistered Clerics, i.e. lower HD & BAB & Fort & Armor Prof, but better skills and more spell slots. I don`t think anybody should be prevented from taking Armor Proficiency via Feat, but instead make their casting subject to ASF% (this lets them use Mithril Light Armor effectively, as opposed to if they only have Light Proficiency, they can use Mithril Medium Armor with Proficiency - actually, if they don`t plan on meleeing, a Caster who doens`t have to worry about ASF can wear Heavy Armor even if they don`t have proficiency)
Yes, I like the cloistered cleric variant for people who want to play more bookish clerics.
Basically, I would like to see 2 variant clerics along the lines of.
- A cleric who gives up BAB/HP/Medium armor profiency for an extra domain and more skill points. Basically a more general version of the cloistered cleric.
- A cleric who gives up a domain for bonus combat feats and access to fighter feats.
My Council of Thieves Cleric of Cayden Cailean: a CG Dwarf wearing full plate and a half keg on his back. His holy symbol was a tankard that was always either full or being drunk from. Like to keep himself buzzed most of the day. He had the Travel domain so at various points in the day he would teleport, float, and fly at his enemies at 30' in full plate, wielding various hammers to smash the faces of his Chelaxian oppressors. This character was hung over for about 75% of the campaign.A friends Cleric of Calistria, a CN Elf woman who liked to "get around" and wasn't above fighting dirty, trickery to get what she wanted, or seduction as a means to an end. Fought with a whip and hand crossbow and played more like a sneaky rogue than a cleric, except when she chose to bolster her allies with the occasional spell. Used her Trickery and Chaos domains to lead enemies on, confusing and misleading them into wasting time at just the wrong moment while her allies moved into position.
My current game has an Elf Cleric of Abadar, with the Travel and Nobility domains. He's "above" fighting like a barbarian, and so he lends aid to his allies with spells, and then hangs back with his light crossbow. He's not the best shot yet (level 4 currently) but he's focusing on that style of fighting to ensure that he doesn't need to dirty his hands in melee any more than absolutely necessary. He'll be receiving the Leadership feat at level 8 for free from his domain, and is going to use it to recruit a local to serve as his secretary and tax collector, and to generally help him fill his position handling domestic affairs for our government.
I noticed that you used freedom, trickery, and travel domains. That covers 3 of the best domains out there. Now try creating a Cleric of Gorum without the APG subdomains, and see what you end up with when you have mostly crap domains to choose from.
But guys, you're forgetting about the save domain- I mean the protection domain.
I actually picked that with my tengu inquisitor, and my 15th level variant of him (we're playing using both) had a low save of 21, his fortitude, and a ring of evasion. Since inq's get mettle, protection is just what the doctor ordered. Combine that with my ability to go sword and board or two-handed and you find a character that can take anything and keep coming while dealing notable damage and being able to heal a fallen ally if necessary.
If you want to go melee, destruction or strength is your game (though strength is nowhere as ridiculous as in 3.5). I once played a cleric in 3.5 with a shatterspike and the strength domain. I destroyed a bugbear chieftain's greataxe with a single strike at 8th level. I mean destroyed the AXE part.
Fire isn't terrible since you get resistance to the most commonly used element in the game, Community has Unity (Combine with Protection for massive damage negation) and Chaos has Touch of Chaos (Touch attack that makes them roll twice for ALL d20 rolls, meaning they fail saves, miss with their attacks, concentration rolls, and have a tiny chance of critting successfully), both amazing abilities. Law's isn't too bad either (Take 11 on all d20 rolls, meaning an auto-success for my inquisitor), and ti gets hold monster. Darkness is the one you take in a party with multiple rogues, since it causes the target ONLY to treat creatures as having concealment, and it gives you the feat that everyone wants but no one can justify taking, blind-fight. Healing is good for the 6th level ability and for the minor extra healing provided by its primary ability, letting you keep a couple slots a day. So you get no good domain spells. Eh. Take it as a negative channeler and suddenly this domain is amazing. Liberation is freaking awesome. Grappled, restrained, paralyzed etc.? Not any more, and never again. Oh and it goes for your allies too at 8th level. Madness is pretty awesome. As a touch attack, grant a target +1/2 your level on skill checks and -1/2 your level on attack rolls and saves? For 3 ROUNDS? Can I take two? This is so exploitable. That could also be a bonus to attack rolls and a penalty to saves and skills for, say, the archer or fighter. Or a bonus to saves for the wizard. But always a bonus to skill checks when attacking a foe. There is no save. Holy crap. How can you say this is bad? This is the best thing to ever happen to an enchanter.
Overall, I bet there are some other good combination with the right party. You just need to be creative and stop thinking of your character as a single entity, and imagine working as a group. My current group is tearing through CR+3 encounters because of teamwork like this and they're only getting stronger. And guess what?
Not one of them is a druid or cleric.
If you want to go melee, destruction or strength is your game (though strength is nowhere as ridiculous as in 3.5). I once played a cleric in 3.5 with a shatterspike and the strength domain. I destroyed a bugbear chieftain's greataxe with a single strike at 8th level. I mean destroyed the AXE part.
Actually, strength domain from the core book is quite possibly the worst domain for a melee cleric to choose.
1st level ability - standard action to give strength bonus for 1 round. Can only use this ability effectively on other players.
8th level ability - standard action to gain a strength bonus that CANNOT be used for melee attacks.
Destruction can be a decent melee domain, but it is a double edge sword since it gives all your enemies the same bonus it gives you.
@Madcap Storm King: I don`t think this thread is about whether or not the Domain abilities/spells were powerful or effective.
Has Pathfinder missed the boat when looking at Clerics?
I got my APG hoping to see some 'kits' like everyone else got, yet all I see is more flavours of fruit (Domains) to pick two of.
Now I could be missing something here, but after musing over the concept of rolling a cleric I am now left with the firm opinion that they are the class most lacking in panache or flavour in the game.
Simply put, all other classes have a myriad of ways to style a look and feel, expanded significantly by the APG variants, but Clerics are still the same old tin can off the shelf (Plate/shield/mace) with whatever two-fruits domain the player chose.
I figured a 'cohort' cleric would be good, high CHA with a Celestial 'avatar' of his god sent down/gifted to walk with him on the path to ascension (Ldrship feat with a Celestial/half cel lion or uber giant eagle and drop a Feat to pay for it for mechanics balance), but without the Animal domain it is a bit stunted.
I wanted something that people would go 'Holy heck!' when he arrived... messenger of the gods type stuff :P
Summons don't fill that niche either, by the time you have MS(V) you get a 1 a day of a Cr5/6 critter that may or may not be effective - for 54 seconds - and sacrifice other really good spells. If they turned 'rounds' into 'hours' that would be awesome. Even dropping the feat to improve summons gives +4str/+4con which is nice... but the duration is the big kill.
Anyhow I then thought of a Cha cleric anyhow - looking for that 'slightly detached, touched by the divine, no longer quite man' type concept where simply by force of divine will he could influence others etc... but then I notice that clerics are lame at Cha skills, only getting Diplomacy and being weaksauce at Intim/Bluff etc... Sense motive is ok. But you get next to no skill points (2/lv) so even when you are good, you are half baked. So that's out too...
So the more I read up on clerics the more I start to think they are the class the designers forgot.
The flavours are 'go Charisma...
BLASPHEMER!
Harm him till he glows and smite him in the dark!
noticed that you used freedom, trickery, and travel domains. That covers 3 of the best domains out there. Now try creating a Cleric of Gorum without the APG subdomains, and see what you end up with when you have mostly crap domains to choose from.
There's always Madness and Chaos :)
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Since we're on the subject of Clerics and domains, I hope some day we'll see domains play a bigger role than they currently do. Not just bonus spells to an existing spell list, but I'd like them to actually be the spell list.
Once upon a time, I was working on a class called "Chosen" which was basically a spontanious caster who could only cast domain spells of her deity. She started out with 2 domains and added other domains as she progressed, gaining access to the spells and powers of those domains....
But I can't find my notes. I'd have to see what I could reconstruct from my HeroLab files.
Those who are hoping to do anything else than heal and protect their fellow allies are missing the boat as clerics.
NOT.
You can totally be a butt kicking front liner with the cleric class.
Or you can possibly be a battle field control, most of the cleric's blast spells also come with some debuffing, lending himself well to this as well.
A cleric doesn't have to be a "heal and protect" character anymore than the fighter has to be a damage dealer (though it is easier to do so with a fighter) or a paladin has to be a boring old stick in the mud.
Sounds like you need to play with different people. It is called Role-Playing for a reason, and the only RP restriction on a Cleric is the 1 step in alignment to their deity. Even then there are secular Clerics.
Nah I'm happy enough to accept that in campaign worlds there might be a set of deities (or even a monotheistic system!) and go with that.
I think it IS reasonable for a GM to determine whether the choices of Domain fit or not based on what fits or what doesn't.