Where, pray tell, have I ever defined it as such?
Because that is the very way a core game works. You have 5 option, no more.so yes ya are limited too one pre selected list in a great many games.
I was thinking of something along the line of the Conan RPG. You only could play human, they divided them up buy cultural much like races but still your option was human or another type of human.
If ya said ya was playing that RPG and a player goes "I want to be a minotaur" I would have to tell em no. It just not fit the setting at all.
I guess the difference for me is I must have played 30 or so setting, both long term and one shot deals and not all of them are "kitchen sink" style settings. And to me its perfectly ok to not be allowed just anything, ya can always do that in a setting that it fits later.
I have enjoyed the gonzo bring what ever ya got games and the more restricted games. I enjoy the different styles and different flavor of each setting. Having them all the same is boring to me.
Because that is the very way a core game works. You have 5 option, no more.so yes ya are limited too one pre selected list in a great many games.
Except those five (five?) classes can be bent and twisted in any of a thousand ways to represent any of a thousand things; the Bard class can represent a wandering minstrel, a professor, a scholar, the tower wizard classic, a witch, a Chippendale dancer, a priest, a historian, a skald, or any number of things, many (most, in fact) of which are not bards.
It's not a case of, "If you are a bard, you are a wandering minstrel, and all wandering minstrels are bards."
For the record, I have only ever played elves and humans. One dwarf and one halfling.
You pointy-eared bastard.
If ya said ya was playing that RPG and a player goes "I want to be a minotaur" I would have to tell em no. It just not fit the setting at all.
Except a priest of the sun god is a perfectly appropriate character and "burninate the peoples" is a perfectly sensible ability for the sun god to grant; the Warmage cleric of Glowy fits perfectly, doesn't detract from feel or tone, doesn't diminish anything; she's a splendid character who contributes volumes to the game.
We're not talking about bizarre freaks from nowhere. We're talking about actually granting the leeway to actually craft those appropriate characters rather than having your build foisted upon you by a design devoid of trust.
Guys I am not even talking the same example here. The 5 options are races not class. Your mixing examples.
And vv the warmage may be ok, unless the Order of Glowy requires you to have two selected Domains, then no it would not. He could call himself a priest all he wanted "unless the church disallowed that" he could not however join an order if it had such specific requirements and he could not meet them. Lets be honest about it, religious orders don't need a real reason to have odd restrictions or not make sense to outsiders.
But eh whatever the order of glowry was your example to start with. Only thing I have that strict in my setting is magical orders. Much less so outside of my own setting.
My dislike of psionics is much more from a practicality point of view. It's not that I have anything in particular with the system its just about breaching content.
All classes have their own set of content. Most of that content you'll already be expecting to include in any basic game. A trap here or there so of course you need the trap rules. Spellcasters as enemies so you need caster rules. So all the standard content is pretty much already included in what you plan to use.
Psionics though has its own set of content and that content is VAST! Thats because its more of a variant than an option in itself. You get Psionic casters, fighters, creatures and challenges. All of this content associated with psionics and now because a single character wants to play it you'd have to breach all of that content in order to give him his challenges, items, spells and feats. Thats's a whole lot to deal with and it's not as interchangeable. If you make up or roll out a rather nice psionic item you've only one of four party members that would likely be interested in it. You now essentially have 3 players gaming out of one set of books and a single other player gaming out a completely different set of books. The amount of work required by the gm has possibly just doubled just to satisfy that single player.
Thats how I feel about psionics. Essentially in 3.5 psionics had so much content and such a large system in itself that it could easily overwhelm the game if attempting to mix it into a normal game.
Psionics though has its own set of content and that content is VAST! Thats because its more of a variant than an option in itself. You get Psionic casters, fighters, creatures and challenges. All of this content associated with psionics and now because a single character wants to play it you'd have to breach all of that content in order to give him his challenges, items, spells and feats. Thats's a whole lot to deal with and it's not as interchangeable. If you make up or roll out a rather nice psionic item you've only one of four party members that would likely be interested in it. You now essentially have 3 players gaming out of one set of books and a single other player gaming out a completely different set of books. The amount of work required by the gm has possibly just doubled just to satisfy that single player.
Much of that is work you forcibly make for yourself.
Psionic characters are fine with ordinary challenges; you don't need to alter the challenges one whit over them.
If you have one psionic character with five feats, one base class, one prestige class, and twelve powers (which work almost exactly like spells which you already know), you don't need to know anything more than that.
For items, a lot of treasure is gold, and the player can buy what she pleases with it. No need to harshly regulate the magic items, that's just making more work for yourself. What's more, there are very few truly unique psionic items. Power Stones, Dorjes, Psicrowns, and Psionic Tattoos? Those are merely the scrolls, wands, staffs and scrolls you already know. There's an equivalent of pearls of power, but really, most psionic items are just more standard magic items and the items most useful to a psionic character are the same items that are useful to everyone; stat-boosters, save-boosters, incidental toys, et cetera, no need for anything new.
That so-called extra work is mostly an illusion. I learned psionics (complete with all the XPH classes and enough feats, powers and items to get a firm grasp of it) on my own in an afternoon well enough to dissect the thing, and that's a one-time investiture of effort that lasts the rest of my gaming career. And there were a lot of distractions that afternoon.
The problem most people seem to have is this illusion that, in order to include a book, they must absorb it cover-to-cover. That's just not true. All you need to know is the stuff that's actually gonna see use.
I'd still like too hear the non-metagamed reason for requiring domains
I'd also kinda like to know how Seeker dealt with the different class archtypes from the APG. Were they just all banned?
Some might not be allowed, But I did leave wiggle room even if some here thing otherwise.
Off the top of my head
Bard: most if not all of the new options would be "witches"
Druid: Most of the options fit better then the core druid as in that
worlds druids are "tied" to area of power,fey or animal lords
Clerics: With only 6 gods and no such thing as godless clerics sub domains may not be doable, or they may be an offshoot sect, which could bring its own danger.
Monks: would not hail from the known lands if allowed for the most part, other then the weapon adapt.
Rangers The more magical ones would also be counted as witches.
Sorcerer Bloodlines just become Lesser known and Minor Dorliskes's
Wizards: Just become sub orders with the Magi orders.
A few notes here:
The term "witch" is used for any stable but lesser or backwoods magical tradition. Most are untrusted and dying out. Many have been exterminated by a order that regulates such things and the ones that are left are the scatted ones who obeyed the new edicts on magic.
Sorcery is learned and and organized into Dorliskes which in turn bond with one "pardon" from the great beyond. Failure to pass the bonding right leaves ya with no power at all.
Wizardy is also learned and guarded, failure to achieve rank and you never leave the tower after you learn the basics. Most who fail die, a few who fail are changed into golem like servants of the magi orders.
Clerics must have a god.
And magic has a "bleed" effect if it is not used exactly as your trained to use it. This effect brings more power, but is very addictive corrupts people and objects around it and weakens the wall between reality.
Anyone caught "bleeding" is put down like a rabid animal by every known magical order. There are also whole Templar orders who just hunt down those that "bleed"
I'd still like too hear the non-metagamed reason for requiring domains
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Some might not be allowed, But I did leave wiggle room even if some here thing otherwise.
Off the top of my head
Bard: most if not all of the new options would be "witches"
Druid: Most of the options fit better then the core druid as in that
worlds druids are "tied" to area of power,fey or animal lordsClerics: With only 6 gods and no such thing as godless clerics sub domains may not be doable, or they may be an offshoot sect, which could bring its own danger.
Monks: would not hail from the known lands if allowed for the most part, other then the weapon adapt.
Rangers The more magical ones would also be counted as witches.
Sorcerer Bloodlines just become Lesser known and Minor Dorliskes's
Wizards: Just become sub orders with the Magi orders.
A few notes here: ** spoiler omitted **
Yeah, i like DragonAge too. Not a bad atmosphere.
Ya know I have never played that. I don't own an xbox or anything but I did have a new player make a comment like that before. I am guessing it is similar, I really can't tell ya anything about dragon age.
I'd still like too hear the non-metagamed reason for requiring domains.
Well the 2 domains were not mine, I just said I had no issue with it. Domains really are not meta game. If they had zero in game effect then I would agree it was meta game, however Each gives a power with a effect that can be "seen" and a spell that often clerics do not have. I don't think I would ever make one with two domains as a must have but I could see some orders doing so.
I don't recall what VV's Order of the Glowy needed but really as a religious sect I can easily see them being very elitist and very strict in what was allowed. The requirements should have a real in game meaning, not just random, they need to really define and speak to what the order is or does.
The closest thing I have in my would are the magical orders. You for example can't join a sorcerer Dorliskes if your not a sorcerer of that bloodline, you can't even be a sorcerer of that bloodline with out first being part of that Dorliskes.
The in game reason is simple. To be a sorcerer you need a have a bond with a pardon of the outer realms. You need training and to be reconditioned so your ready to form that bond. And each has a very powerful pardon that guards his gifts.
Furthermore the Dorliskes hunt down any and all who try to make pacts on their own. As this is both part of the accords that allowed the Dorliskes to survive to this day and protects the world from the bleed effect such casters always cause.
So to me there is nothing meta game about that, it is simply how guilds and orders work.
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I thought VV's Order of Glowy only had the requirement 'is blessed by Glowy'. Which means that if the player decides he wants his Warmage's powers to be divinely gifted from Glowy, his Warmage can be a part of the order.
Edit: An order that required each of its members to have a specific domain to join would be a very stagnant, hidebound traditional group to me. I would play them as kind of stuffy and pompous, holding to ancient codes against all reason. Kind of like some modern day churches, you know? :)
In her first post she listed 2 domains. Then she went on to say making Any group at all like that was bad. And you should just ignore how the group works if a player wants to be in that group but not follow how that group works.
I do agree such a group would be very hidebound and traditional, but ya know what that is ok as well. I think it is a good thing for a setting to have different orders and groups feel different. Just as it is for different kingdoms and races to not be all the same.
It is a flawed point then. Anything that has in game effects that can be witnessed is not meta gaming. If someone watched you cast a spell, its not meta gaming to have that NPC says "Woh that was magic"
As I said some organizations will want you to meet some requirements, some will not. And yes requirements do involve game mechanics as you can not remove them in full unless your requirements are pure fluff " Need to be born in this village, must be blue eyed, most have a linage that can be traced back to the founder, must worship god x"
And even then she would say it was "distrust" of the player or something of the like.
Nowhere did I say requirements do not involve mechanics. Only that they do not require mechanics.
Other then pure fluff I have no clue what your getting at here man
I'll ask again - if a wizard casts fireball with eschew spell, and a sorcerer casts fireball, how does a second wizard watching them know which is the sorcerer and which is the wizard?
That was answered like 2 pages back.
That was answered like 2 pages back.
You gave a metagamed answer.
When the first can't produce a spell book and does not prepare his spells in the morning. I am not saying you always auto tell every time. What I am saying is you can't hide it.
The sorcerer is lying and a fake and will be found out the longer he try to pass himself off as a wizard.
The sorcerer has a fake spellbook. The wizard has spell mastery.
Give me a non-metagamed answer.
Think of it this way.. you've got a horse rider who was trained in the best finishing school in England and you've got a ranch hand who taught himself how to ride a horse by the time he was 12. Can you tell the difference? If you know equestrianism you can.
Good deal -- and I agree. But now let's take it a step further. You've got a rule that all cowboys are self-taught, and are not permitted to have attended riding school, and that all dressage riders attended the school, and are required not to have been self-taught. So if someone wants a character who attended the school and was a star pupil, but quit to become a cowboy, Seeker bans it. Why?
Granted, instead of getting +2 to attack rolls with the lasso, this character would be getting a +2 on Ride checks to jump fences, and he might not get tobacco juice on his boots, but the character would otherwise still be a perfectly viable cowboy, or so it would seem.
You can't not use the rule a class Needs to function within the game world, rules that are both tangible and viable and call it meta gaming.
Meta gaming is "Its a troll, use fire, it has an AC of 16 and 63 hp"
Meta gaming is not "He doesn't have a spell book, nor does he cast as we do. Clearly he lies"
A simple Know arcana roll is all it takes to pinpoint magical traditions and expose your sorcerer. That is not metagaming it is how the world works.
So if someone wants a character who attended the school and was a star pupil, but quit to become a cowboy, Seeker bans it. Why?
Why would I ban that? Now if an outfit of cowboys required you to be a skilled rider, and you were not then I could see me saying "They would never allow you to join" But other then that I don't see why I would ban it.
You guys are using restrictions I would not use, but eh they are your examples. Just don't assume I would ban something or allow something just because you would.
As I said I have no issues with your cowboy example. The others might mock him but I would not disallow that one.
As I said I have no issues with your cowboy example.
How is the cowboy example different from the cleric example, exactly?
Or using the psion class to represent a sorcerer?Because we're calling it a "riding school" instead of an artifical "class"?
As I said I have no issues with your cowboy example.How is the cowboy example different from the cleric example, exactly? Because we're calling it a riding school instead of an artifical "class"?
Its the same more or less, if you do not have the correct skill "Being a good rider" then ya can't join a group that requires ya to be a good rider. He meet the skill requirement so I would have allowed it, and then given his PC hell over it until he earned the respect of the other members of this group.
Not being self taught is not the same as unable to ride well. I would have allowed it.
Although I could see groups not allowing those of a different race, clan or tribe to join.
Doesn't "riding school" equate to "church" and not "class"?
Kinda how it seemed to me, how ya learned is a fluff requirement and has zero to do with having or not having a skill, feat,class or race.
Doesn't "riding school" equate to "church" and not "class"?
No. In this metaphor -- which is pretty apt -- the training school is providing your baseline abilities (i.e., "class features"); the profession you go into (cowboy, or circus rider) is the "church" or other professional organization.
The Dressage Rider class (i.e., the people who attended riding school) ride in a particular, identifiable style (sorcerer vs. wizard, anyone?), and provides a slightly different array of class features (bonuses to jumping the mount, vs. Exotic Weapon Proficiency with the lasso). Most members of the Dressage Rider class join the circus, but this one joined Bert's Bar-T Ranch instead, because her Dex is good enough to offset the lasso nonproficiency penalty, and the fence jumping is an added perk.
If it's okay for a riding-school trained character (member of the Dressage Rider class) to be a part of Bert's Bar-T Ranch Cowboys (even though most of them belong to the Dogie Roper class instead), then by the same token it should be okay for a gal with divine sun powers (Violetta's member of the Warmage class) to be part of the Church of Glowy, even though most members are Clerics.
Now I'm sad thinking about Old Yeller. <:| <-- quivering lip.I don't like psionics because they shot my Pa.We've gone over this before. A rabid raccoon bit him. I felt bad for Papa Yeller, but sometimes the only choices left are bad ones.
Sorry. Your myco-doppleganger put me up to it. :)
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I love 3.5 Psionics, but holy crap, I think it's time to nuke this thread before the negativity opens up a hellmouth under Paizo's server room.
Come on, can we all agree that we aren't going to agree, and just let this psionics yay-or-nay drop?
Oh your not talking about a skill but two full classes. I have no clue then man As I would both need to see the class, know the world and how each group interacted with each other.
If one class did not have an ablity the "cowboys" demanded you know before ya could join then he could not join. If however the ability was not tided to a class but that class just was better at it {ranger and tracking} then I would allow them to join.
Now if you are trained by a group that only trains in the Dressage style then ya would have to be of that class or flunk out so to speak.{ well they might keep ya around but not take ya all that seriously "See jede there? Good man in a fight but can't ride for damn, never let him near the training grounds"
Oh your not talking about a skill but two full classes. I have no clue then man As I would both need to see the class, know the world and how each group interacted with each other.
If one class did not have an ablity the "cowboys" demanded you know before ya could join then he could not join. If however the ability was not tided to a class but that class just was better at it {ranger and tracking} then I would allow them to join.
Now if you are trained by a group that only trains in the Dressage style then ya would have to be of that class or flunk out so to speak.
The point is that Burt sets the requirements of his cowboys based on things that he needs cowboys to be able to do, in terms of the game world. He wants them to be able to ride horses and rope cows. He shouldn't give a damn what specific style of riding they do. And he shouldn't know whether the roping ability comes from Exotic Weapon Proficiency or from a high Dex.
The point is that Burt sets the requirements of his cowboys based on things that he needs cowboys to be able to do, in terms of the game world. He wants them to be able to ride horses and rope cows. He shouldn't give a damn what specific style of riding they do. And he shouldn't know whether the roping ability comes from Exotic Weapon Proficiency or from a high Dex.
As long as the order does not see a need for all that then yeah I got no issue with it. Which is what I said up there. I would have allowed that one.
Only thing I said was some Orders will see a need to make very heavy requirements. Not that all of them will or that all must, some however will want to do so.
The point is that Burt (of Burt's Ranch) sets the requirements of his cowboys based on things that he needs cowboys to be able to do, in terms of the game world. He wants them to be able to ride horses and rope cows. He shouldn't give a damn what specific style of riding they do, as long as they can ride. And he shouldn't have any way of knowing whether the roping ability comes from Exotic Weapon Proficiency or from a high Dex. By the same logic, your church can require healing touches and divine sun powers -- which are both appropriate and logical -- but it shouldn't require "Cleric class with Healing and Sun Domains." The former are things the church would reasonably test for and be concerned about. The latter are simply game terms for one method of gaining those abilities (although other methods work too, as has been pointed out).Oh your not talking about a skill but two full classes. I have no clue then man As I would both need to see the class, know the world and how each group interacted with each other.
If one class did not have an ablity the "cowboys" demanded you know before ya could join then he could not join. If however the ability was not tided to a class but that class just was better at it {ranger and tracking} then I would allow them to join.
Now if you are trained by a group that only trains in the Dressage style then ya would have to be of that class or flunk out so to speak.
Now I'm sad thinking about Old Yeller. <:| <-- quivering lip.I don't like psionics because they shot my Pa.We've gone over this before. A rabid raccoon bit him. I felt bad for Papa Yeller, but sometimes the only choices left are bad ones.Sorry. Your myco-doppleganger put me up to it. :)
[jest]Proof that psionic control of one's mind is game breaking![/jest]
By the same logic, your church can require healing touches and divine sun powers, but they shouldn't require "Healing and Sun Domains." The former are things the church would reasonably test for and be concerned about. The latter are simply game terms for one method of gaining those abilities (although other methods work too, as has been pointed out).
On the healing example from a few pages back, healing domain is the easiest and only way to meet part 3 of the requirements at level 1{ Barring non core content} There were other ways to gain the healing touch, just none as easy
As I said the 2 domains was Not my example I just used it. Requiring a set of domain powers and spells to join an order is not an out of hand requirement.
True its a very strict one, but no less then Paladin orders that only have paladins among them. May be not a common order but far from a unheard of thing as well.
On the healing example from a few pages back, healing domain is the easiest and only way to meet part 3 of the requirements at level 1{ Barring non core content}
How the hell does the church know what "level" you are? I do things like "To be promoted by the Church to become a fully-ordained Bishop, the character must demonstrate the ability to raise the dead." What I don't ever say that he has to be "a 9th level cleric."
And how does it make sense to have an organization requires that someone be able to heal by a touch through a spell and heal through a touch by a not-spell? Magic healing is healing.
Likewise, requiring specific domains is inherently unreasonable because that's not a task. That's a metagame structure. "Be able to burn people with magic" is an in-game concept that makes sense to require. "Have the Fire domain" is not.
And paladin orders only allowing Paladins is equally as nonsensical, one-dimensional, and detrimental to the creation of an interesting organization.
By the same logic, your church can require healing touches and divine sun powers, but they shouldn't require "Healing and Sun Domains." The former are things the church would reasonably test for and be concerned about. The latter are simply game terms for one method of gaining those abilities (although other methods work too, as has been pointed out).On the healing example from a few pages back, healing domain is the easiest and only way to meet part 3 of the requirements at level 1{ Barring non core content} There were other ways to gain the healing touch, just none as easy
If you can cast any healing spells, you can heal with a touch.
You've yet to state why that "doesn't work."
Because he wants 'heal with a touch' and 'heal with a touch spell'. Never mind that the difference is so minute only severely picky people would pay any attention to the semantics.
And if you are a severely picky people, you'll quickly notice that in healing with a touch spell, you are healing with a touch.
Because the ability to cast a healing spell was step 1 of meeting 3 different requirements. If healing spell counted for part 3 there would be no need to list it by itself.
It would be 1: ability to cast healing spell and 2: knowledge of the healing arts as if a healing spell was enough there would not zero need to list it twice.
However the order in my example called all three distinctive requirements. Not two.
The three given were 1: ability to cast healing spell and 2: knowledge of the healing arts and 3 : the ability to heal with a touch.
Are you guys really that dense ya can't count past 2? If a spell is the requirement for 1 then it can not also be the requirement for 3 when you have 3 distinctive requirements.
And my example did not care what level you happened to be, nor what class as long as you could meet all three then you could join.
There is no issue with the order or its requirements, just with player who want to be called something and expects the the setting to be rewritten because he wants it to be rewritten.
How the hell does the church know what "level" you are? I do things like "To be promoted by the Church to become a fully-ordained Bishop, the character must demonstrate the ability to raise the dead." What I don't ever say that he has to be "a 9th level cleric."
The church or order can know level in a few ways, by what spells ya cast normally. However in the example given the order does not care what level you are . The player might but the order does not care. They don't care if your 1st of 15th level, if ya meet the requirements then you may join. If you can not meet them then you may not join.
The player may want to be a part of that order at level 1 however, which would limit him heavily in class options. Thats not the orders doing, its the player who decided he wanted to play a member of that order after all. No one forced that choice on him.
You've yet to state why that "doesn't work."
Because the ability to cast a healing spell was step 1 of meeting 3 different requirements. If healing spell counted for part 3 there would be no need to list it by itself.
It would be 1: ability to cast healing spell and 2: knowledge of the healing arts as if a healing spell was enough there would not zero need to list it twice.
However the order in my example called all three distinctive requirements. Not two.
The three given were 1: ability to cast healing spell and 2: knowledge of the healing arts and 3 : the ability to heal with a touch.
Are you guys really that dense ya can't count past 2? If a spell is the requirement for 1 then it can not also be the requirement for 3 when you have 3 distinctive requirements.
And my example did not care what level you happened to be, nor what class as long as you could meet all three then you could join.
There is no issue with the order or its requirements, just with player who want to be called something and expects the the setting to be rewritten because he wants it to be rewritten.
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Are you guys really that dense ya can't count past 2? If a spell is the requirement for 1 then it can not also be the requirement for 3 when you have 3 distinctive requirements.
Except requirement 1 and 3 are not distinctive enough that a healing spell does not fulfill both.
Edit:
If healing spell counted for part 3 there would be no need to list it by itself.
Then there is no need to list it by itself, because a healing spell does count for both.