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a question came up on weekend which had 2 of us interpreting it differently so hoping someone on here can help - BTW I used search function but could find what I was after
the rules say you use targets CMD to tumble past using acrobatics if using half speed & add 10 for moving full speed
I had always assumed this to mean a 30' speed character can only move 15' for normal CMD or 30' for the +10 to CMD - this also meant that the character moving could not move any faster than this eg. double move especially for double moves or more
The DM interpreted the rule as the squares you moved through to be at half speed (essentially costing double the move 10' movement for 5' square like in difficult terrain) but could move normally once out of the square allowing double moves etc - he agreed that he could see how I could interpret the rule my way but for sake of playing we agreed to play it his way since he was DM (I am ok with this)
I wanted to know if I am reading rule wrong or right since I just seemed silly to me that character a character would be able to move at double speed after using acrobatics (basically rolling on ground, somersaults & jumping) to dodge an opponent with having a penalty
hope this makes sense
I wanted to know if I am reading rule wrong or right since I just seemed silly to me that character a character would be able to move at double speed after using acrobatics (basically rolling on ground, somersaults & jumping) to dodge an opponent with having a penalty
I've seen it interpreted both ways as well. At my table, you only need to move 1/2 speed in the square(s) where you are threatened.
I can't imagine someone continuing to dodge, weave, and tumble after he already is out of reach of the enemy. Forcing someone to continue to tumble because they can only do things in six-second chunks just seems silly and arbitrary to me. (Yes, I realize we divide everything up into rounds for convience, but we don't have to be completely rigid for no reason.)
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just so I understand - you guys have a character that normally can move 30' & this character needs to move through 1 or more threatened squares - these squares count as double mvmt (5' squares becomes 10' movement cost) with a normal acrobatics check (not a CMD+10) then you can continue to move as normal including allowing the character to do double move or more if they wish
or the character could move a full speed so each square only counts as 5' with a CMD+10 check & could also move double move or more
just so I understand - you guys have a character that normally can move 30' & this character needs to move through 1 or more threatened squares - these squares count as double mvmt (5' squares becomes 10' movement cost) with a normal acrobatics check (not a CMD+10) then you can continue to move as normal including allowing the character to do double move or more if they wish
or the character could move a full speed so each square only counts as 5' with a CMD+10 check & could also move double move or more
Yes, double move to me simply means moving for the full six seconds instead of only 1/2 of those six seconds (move and standard action).
Let's say the character needs to move through two threatened squares. He could use 20 ft of movement to move through those two squares and make a acrobatic vs CMD check, then move two more squares using 10ft of movement total (5 ft each). Now he could make another move, cast a spell, drink a potion, whatever; heck, he could even use his second move (and another acrobatics check) to move through another enemies threaten area.
Or the character could move at full speed and make an acrobatic vs CMD+10 check.
Well, slow down just a bit there.
First, don't automatically assume that acrobatics means you're "basically rolling on ground, somersaults & jumping". Sure, you might be. But you might also just be twisting, ducking, and squirming out of the way. You know, like Neo dodging bullets in The Matrix. It could mean all that.
Second, don't think that rolling and somersaulting slows people down. Not if they know what they're doing (and, after all, ranks in the skill means you know what you're doing, right - the more ranks, the more you know what you're doing). I myself can go from a flat run to a roll on the ground and hit my feet still running. So can anyone who's spent any decent time in a soft-form martial arts class or a gymnastics class. So can anyone who's ever been taught how to carry a football (American football).
So, having buried a couple assumptions, let's actually talk about what the rulebook really says:
Acrobatics specifically says you can move at half-speed or take a penalty to move at full speed. It does not say, in any way, that you can just count each threatened square as double. Now, we're talking about a single move here, but that single move needs to be at half-speed. If you want to double move, and one of those two moves has no Acrobatics checks, then you can move your normal movement rate, and then use acrobatics on the other move.
So, by RAW, you could move 30', then acrobatically avoid AoOs for another 15' (using two moves, assuming a typical unencumbered human).
That's the rules.
Now, everyone who is talking about paying x2 movement cost for each square is creating a houserule that allows part of the move to be at normal speed and part of it to be at reduced speed because of Acrobatics.
That's fine. Do that if you want. I do. The other two DMs that I game with also both play it that way. It makes sense.
Just understand that you're using a houserule rather than the actual rules.
Here's the game rule:
"In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10."
Note that it says "through 'a' threatened square", and then states "when moving in this way, you move at half speed". If you are moving through a single threatened square at half speed, to me, that could be interpreted as spending double movement on that square.
Also, the 3.5e FAQ agrees with this interpretation of tumbling:
move action, does that mean he is moving at half speed for
the whole move, or just in the squares where tumbling?
Although it’s easiest to apply the half-speed penalty to the
entire move action, it’s not strictly necessary to do so.
If the player and DM can handle this additional level of
complexity, it’s perfectly okay to rule that you pay an extra
movement cost only for each square that you use Tumble to
exit without provoking an attack of opportunity (as well as for
each square of an enemy’s space that you enter using Tumble).
For example, imagine Ember begins her turn 10 feet from
an orc and wants to use Tumble to move through its space and
end up 15 feet away on the opposite side.
• Her first square of movement wouldn’t provoke
attacks of opportunity (since she’s not leaving a
threatened square), so she doesn’t use Tumble or
move at half speed.
• Her second and third squares of movement take her
through the orc’s space, so these effectively cost
twice normal (that is, they each cost 1 extra square of
movement), and this movement requires a DC 25
Tumble check. (If you’re using this system, it’s much
easier to think of tumbling as costing extra squares of
movement rather than actually changing your speed.)
Ember has now paid a total of 5 squares of movement
(out of the 8 allotted to her for her speed of 40 feet).
• Assuming that check succeeds, Ember now moves
from a threatened square (adjacent to the orc), which
requires a DC 15 Tumble check and costs twice
normal (or 1 extra square of movement). She’s now
paid a total of 7 squares of movement.
• Finally, Ember moves one last square, ending up 15
feet from the orc on the opposite side from where she
began. She’s not leaving a threatened square, so she
doesn’t use Tumble or pay any extra movement.
Ember has paid for 8 squares (40 feet) of movement,
and has covered a linear distance of 5 squares (25
feet).
So it's at least how the designers felt it should be played back when it was done in 3.5e.
While tumbling has been rolled into Acrobatics, and changed from a fixed DC to opposing CMD (grumble.. see that other thread), I don't think the movement cost method has changed in intent.
So while RAW could be read either way really (there's nothing necessarily restricting either way of reading of the rules), the intent seems to be for the more liberal reading.
My group treats it as half movement for the round. Considering you're getting the potential benefit of avoiding a AoO, moving 1/2 speed for the round is a fair trade off for the attempt.
Either wording works fine. You are either going at half speed for the round, or half speed for that square, the rules don't spell it out.
I've always used the double square rule myself. Someone that has to backflip away from the guy with the sword and make a break for it is going to get further than the guy that has to do a backflip followed by a cartwheel, a forward roll and then a leap. It really screws over small (and slow) characters if they have to tumble away.
I'll have to come down on the 'Half speed through squares' myself. I'm pretty sure that's what we've done in the past in my game.