I am thinking of starting a new high-powered action/adventure seafaring campaign with 25-pt buy, the Traits and Hero Points systems, and access to all material from the following books: GameMastery Guide, Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and the Advanced Player's Guide.
Before I do so however, I wanted to get a feel for what people thought of the Hero Points system as shown in the Advanced Player's Guide. There has been surprisingly little discussion on the matter and I am hoping to change that.
I want to know what you think of this optional game mechanic: whether you like it or not (and why), whether or not you think it is unbalanced (and why), and whether or not you would make changes to the rules as written (and why).
I'll start.
At a glance, I really like the Hero Point system as it reminds me greatly of the Force Point system and Destiny Point system from Star Wars Saga rolled together. It goes a long way towards keeping player characters alive (we generally have a revolving door of characters in our campaigns otherwise) and adds to the exciting feel of the game as a whole since it give the players a chance to think outside the box and attempt things that would otherwise be impossible via the rules.
As such, short of you convincing me to do otherwise, I'm likely to not change anything, but for one exception: I would NOT reward hero points for out of game actions as the book suggests. I am a firm believer that out of game actions (such as helping to cook or clean on game night) should be rewarded with out of game rewards (such as my buying pizza or inviting you into the next campaign) and that in-game actions (saving the dame, slaying the BBEG) should be rewarded with in-game rewards (treasure, XP, NPC favors).
So what do you guys think of this fascinating optional rule? I can't wait to hear your thoughts.
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I've used different variants of the hero point rules in several of my games, and it works pretty well. Consider them basically extra one use magic items. They come into play to give characters the extra little boost they need when they need it the most. Of course, I'm a big fan of making the characters into capital "H" Heroes and Hero points go a long way to helping with that.
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It seems that since the mid 90s every big name game designer from Monte Cook to Chris Perkins has tried out a "Hero Points" mechanic in one of their games and fallen in love with it.
In my games I use a "Hero Points" mechanic occassionally -- occassionally in each campaign or adventure, that is .
So at the beginning of the campaign there will be none. No Hero Points. A little later, after numerous sessions and grand occomplishments, I'll give each PC a "Point" to use for a free roll or reroll or non-RAW improvement to an Action.
If you use yours for the benefit of the party instead of yourself you'll likely get another.
But after a couple sessions or so I'll retract them. I may rule that, for the next couple sessions no Hero Points may be used. Or I may rule that, for the BBEG fight you can use them but as soon as the BBEG fight is done the points expire.
For my games it works very well.
I've always had good luck running games with this type of system. I often used a variant of the Top Secret rule, Fame and Fortune points. For example, when I ran a GURPS campaign, I gave them a few Fortune points to start, bonus points at the end of story arcs, and Fame Points whenever they bought or earned levels of reputation. The Fame and Fortune points operated much in the same way as Hero Points, just from a different source.
My two cents:
It looks like a decent system, although I think I prefer Eberron's action points. They're a bit weaker, but you get more of them. The problem with having a small number of powerful hero points (in my experience) is that people tend to hoard them for emergencies, and then they end up not using most of them. I'd rather encourage players to spend them freely whenever it's appropriate. Giving one or two really powerful, non-refillable points is good, too, like a mulligan or a "get out of jail free card".
I have mixed feelings about giving out extra hero points for an individual character's background or roleplaying. If you have two players in your game -- Shy Sam and Loud Larry -- then Loud Larry will tend to scoop up the roleplaying awards, whereas Shy Sam is out of luck. Sam is the one who needs encouragement in speaking out, not Larry.
Fortunately, hoarding hero points isn't really possible in Pathfinder since you can never, under any circumstances, have more than 3.
That stacked on top of "if one player tries an impossible action, no other player (or even the same player) may attempt the same impossible action" brings it into line a little bit I think.
But yeah, I know what you guys mean. In Star Wars Saga, I would always have a player or two hoard their Destiny Points so that they could instant win against the big bad guy at adventure's end (which often made it anticlimactic and ruined the fun for the other players as they fight would be over before their turn).
Fortunately, hoarding hero points isn't really possible in Pathfinder since you can never, under any circumstances, have more than 3.
Right, so they hoard three of them and then maybe try to use one just before they go up a level (if they remember) or else just let some points go to waste.
The other possible scenario is that they save up all their points for the BBEG battle, and then proceed to spend them all and tromp on him before he even gets to act, as you noted.
I was working on a version of 'hero points' of my own before the APG, which has probably slanted my viewpoint somewhat, but...I personally don't really like the way that the Hero Point system was implemented much. Some of the effects are neat, but...I've had way too many games where hero/action points were used, and everyone was afraid of using them either because A) They might run out, and they weren't sure how often they might be rewarded or B) Because they wanted to hoard them.
In my game I'm basing it loosely off of the Refresh mechanic out of the Dresden RPG, so my players will always start the session with one Hero Point, unless they had more at the end of the previous session. Acting in line with personal flaws can get the character more points, as do truly heroic actions. Haven't tried it yet, as that system is going to be used in my game after my group finishes Rise of the Runelords, but...there's my two cents.
Fortunately, hoarding hero points isn't really possible in Pathfinder since you can never, under any circumstances, have more than 3.Right, so they hoard three of them and then maybe try to use one just before they go up a level (if they remember) or else just let some points go to waste.
The other possible scenario is that they save up all their points for the BBEG battle, and then proceed to spend them all and tromp on him before he even gets to act, as you noted.
Knowing my players, they will save up until they have 3 of them, then they will hold 2 in reserve (as a get out of DEATH ticket) and use the 3rd as needed in particularly difficult encounters.
I'm fine with that. If they end up using all 3 on an end boss, then its my fault for not making previous encounters challenging enough.
Fortunately, hoarding hero points isn't really possible in Pathfinder since you can never, under any circumstances, have more than 3.
That stacked on top of "if one player tries an impossible action, no other player (or even the same player) may attempt the same impossible action" brings it into line a little bit I think.
But yeah, I know what you guys mean. In Star Wars Saga, I would always have a player or two hoard their Destiny Points so that they could instant win against the big bad guy at adventure's end (which often made it anticlimactic and ruined the fun for the other players as they fight would be over before their turn).
My tactic for the saga game i ran was, big bads have destiny points too, use them to counter the hoarder. It directed my players to use them more in line with the rule of cool against rank and files then to try to nova an encounter with them.
I do think though that if you include this system it is licence to bring up the difficulty some, forcing your players to actually use them (hopefully) instead of them being able to hoard. Also the first couple times you tell the hoarders 'aw i was gonna give you a new point, but you already have the max' will limit the hoard mentality pretty fast.
Also the first couple times you tell the hoarders 'aw i was gonna give you a new point, but you already have the max' will limit the hoard mentality pretty fast.
Maybe, although it didn't work very well in the first Eberron game I played in. There were lots of wasted points, even with one or two players saying "C'mon guys, we're almost about to go up a level! Don't let those points go to waste!" To be fair, that was a PbEM game where the DM rolled all the dice, so it wasn't possible to see beforehand if you had made a marginal roll before applying an action point.
One thing I should note that the APG system does absolutely right: if you can use a hero point to alter a roll, it should be allowed after the dice are rolled. I was in one game where a (rare) hero point could be used for a +2 bonus, but you had to choose before you rolled the dice. That's a 90% chance of being a total waste of a point!
I am getting set to use the Hero Points system as detailed in the APG in Kingmaker campaign starting in a couple of weeks. I primarily wanted one to act as a second measure of defense against a long string of bad rolls or the reverse a long string of great rolls by the GM that is about to drastically reshape the campaign. I figure the Hero Points can help shape the tide just a bit.
As for the concerns of the number of them, I actually think the method of a max of three and a player forfeiting more than three is apt to cause people to use more of them. Of course a lot of this depends on how often the GM hands them out. If the GM is particularly stingy with them then I would expect the players to gravitate towards a hoarding mentality. But if the GM gives them out frequently enough then I expect the players would be more apt to use them so as not to be sitting at 3 all the time and miss out on getting another action point. Of course even with that there will always be a player who likes to hoard their action/hero points.
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Big bads have destiny points too
I've thought about this alot over the years and I don't like it, personally.
As DM I get to alter whatever I want to for my NPCs anyway. I get to design them with bended rules. I get to fudge rolls, that kind of thing.
Giving them Hero Points seems unreasonable to me.
In general I'm not big on the "what's-good-for-the-PCs-is-good-for-the-NPCs" anyway. PCs get cooler stats than NPCs, afterall. PCs don't get to be beholders or driders, afterall. (Not great arguments, sure, but enough to consider)
. . . . On the other hand, for the many DMs who are big into RAW -- for DMs who roll the monsters' dice on the table in front of the PCs, I would not see a problem for the occassional baddie or BBEG to have them. I would advise, though, that in those cases the DM, at the beginning of initiative the first time he gives the BBEG a couple Hero Points, mention that the BBEG looks somehow, "Heroic" -- as if he has Hero Points too, Mwahahahahaha.
It could still be tricky. Any Hero Point used for something other than a failed Save requires a DM's arbitration: Hey, DM, can I use a Hero Point to do this really cool, non-RAW Action? and the DM says, "Sure." . . . . Who arbitrates whether the BBEG's Hero Point-use is reasonable?!
As a GM I like them for the purpose of adding more cinematic flair for my PCs. Using them for power-gamer or meta-gaming type purposes is no good for us.
Also, I will often give my named significant NPCs / BBEGs a "Anti-Hero Point", to increase the tension / add more dramatic situations. Its no fun if PCs always just steamroll stuff. Sometimes its cool, but not for encounters that should be climactic! In the end tho, as long as everyone has a good time, that's my goal.
Big bads have destiny points tooI've thought about this alot over the years and I don't like it, personally.
As DM I get to alter whatever I want to for my NPCs anyway. I get to design them with bended rules. I get to fudge rolls, that kind of thing.
Giving them Hero Points seems unreasonable to me.
In general I'm not big on the "what's-good-for-the-PCs-is-good-for-the-NPCs" anyway. PCs get cooler stats than NPCs, afterall. PCs don't get to be beholders or driders, afterall. (Not great arguments, sure, but enough to consider)
. . . . On the other hand, for the many DMs who are big into RAW -- for DMs who roll the monsters' dice on the table in front of the PCs, I would not see a problem for the occassional baddie or BBEG to have them. I would advise, though, that in those cases the DM, at the beginning of initiative the first time he gives the BBEG a couple Hero Points, mention that the BBEG looks somehow, "Heroic" -- as if he has Hero Points too, Mwahahahahaha.
It could still be tricky. Any Hero Point used for something other than a failed Save requires a DM's arbitration: Hey, DM, can I use a Hero Point to do this really cool, non-RAW Action? and the DM says, "Sure." . . . . Who arbitrates whether the BBEG's Hero Point-use is reasonable?!
Well actually in the example, they had destiny points by RAW. Most saga edition listed villians had some destiny points unless they were real rank and file guys.
One of the real values in the saga edition system is they let my villians survive more then one encounter. A couple destiny points were a great way to get the heck out of dodge when you really needed to. I havent reviewed the apg system in detail yet but i would guess that they could similarly help with the problem of the 'pcs killed my recurring villain again' syndrome that plagues homebrew games in my group. In the end its a matter of judgement when to use them and when not to, like every other dm trick out there. If a dm cant arbitrate already when to bend the rules, then adding in a formal system for it isnt going to hurt anything.
I've run a campaign in 3.5 with "Action Points" and Hero Points don't do one of my favorite things: give you a one-time use of a feat you otherwise qualify for but don't have.
I also had some PCs hoard action points, especially since we let them accumulate over levels. I like the idea of capping them at 3, or 5 with a feat, but awarding them pretty much anytime something cool happens, as opposed to just when leveling up.
Are you familiar with the Scion line from White Wolf? They have a thing called "stunts," in which if you describe what your character is doing in a cool and descriptive way, you get a bonus--the exact bonus depends on how cool your description is. However, the bonus is applied immediately and isn't something you can hoard. I love this concept--it encourages players to get creative and try new things, without adding to the bookkeeping.
I'm not entirely sure how you'd implement the idea into d&d, though; because the ideas can be so out there ("I run up the wall and backflip over the goblin, plunging my daggers into his back as I land," which might give you a bonus to attack or damage), and because "cool" is so subjective, you'd need a group that trusted each other and that definitely wasn't hung up on RAW.
Are you familiar with the Scion line from White Wolf? They have a thing called "stunts," in which if you describe what your character is doing in a cool and descriptive way, you get a bonus--the exact bonus depends on how cool your description is.
The latest version of Warhammer Fantasy RP does much the same thing. You roll dice pools for any action, and the DM adds fortune/misfortune dice as necessary:
It's raining: +1 misfortune
You're surrounded: +1 misfortune
You described a really cool stunt: +1 fortune
You're related to Chuck Norris: +3 fortune
Etc.
Then the dice are rolled. You can get successes from your fortune dice and there are failures on the misfortune dice that can cancel successes.
It's very flexible and open-ended, and no Hero points are needed for this.
It's also worth noting that they also have a Point system. You get 3 each session and can earn more through actions and story. You can spend a point to get an extra fortune die in the dice pool if you want.
It's an interesting system geared toward RPing and letting the heroes be heroic. And despite all the fortune and misfortune flying around, the players spending 5 or 6 Hero points each session doesn't unbalance anything - it just lets them be heroic.
I have mixed feelings about giving out extra hero points for an individual character's background or roleplaying. If you have two players in your game -- Shy Sam and Loud Larry -- then Loud Larry will tend to scoop up the roleplaying awards....
That happens when the criteria for earning the hero points aren't clear enough. I use a system by which players define their own roleplaying goals, and then are rewarded for meeting their self-imposed goals. Even Shy Sam can do that.
On another note, if players are hoarding hero points, the DM isn't hitting them hard enough. Hero points are a great excuse for me as DM to not pull my punches. For example, in my most recent session, the party of 5 2nd-level PCs got sandwiched between near simultaneous ambushes launched by 7 dire rats and 2 ankhegs.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
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I was using something similar, but players do not gain hero points for going up levels and start with 0. They are strictly for award purposes.
I started using hero points strictly because we are running RotRL and using story point leveling instead of xp, so with hero points I have a system to reward players for good RPing, clever ideas, and heroic efforts. We use Obsidian Portal for online record keeping of our campaign as well, so I award them a hero point for keeping treasure updated or writing an entry in the adventuring log. It has worked so far, and the players spend them nearly as fast as they earn them, with rare exception.
The latest version of Warhammer Fantasy RP does much the same thing. You roll dice pools for any action, and the DM adds fortune/misfortune dice as necessary...
It's an interesting system geared toward RPing and letting the heroes be heroic. And despite all the fortune and misfortune flying around, the players spending 5 or 6 Hero points each session doesn't unbalance anything - it just lets them be heroic.
This sounds like a whole lot of fun. I assume it's not d20? It probably wouldn't be too overbalanced to give +1 or +2 bonuses for cool stuff, or maybe even +1d6 depending on what your group's like.
I'm going to push my DM to incorporate something like this--he heavily favors storytelling and description over rules, so hopefully he'll go for it.
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I'm not too big of a fan of Hero Points myself, but I'm about to try them in my next campaign. I'm playing with an inexperienced group that likes a more cinematic game, so it should go over well. However, I'm not using the feats, spells, and magic items that go with them; Hero Points seem like a flexible mechanic for providing a more cinematic/slightly easier game, and adding solid extra mechanics to them defeats the purpose, in my opinion.
But yeah, I know what you guys mean. In Star Wars Saga, I would always have a player or two hoard their Destiny Points so that they could instant win against the big bad guy at adventure's end (which often made it anticlimactic and ruined the fun for the other players as they fight would be over before their turn).
When you allow Hero Points, you allow the spells and feats that goes with it. The spells include granting temporary hero points *AND* another one denying characters the use of their Hero Points.