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I've GMed 219 sessions of Pathfinder Society and I rarely see any role-play at the table...
A lack of role-pay is not terribly surprising considering that we are generally limited (outside of home games) to finishing an entire adventure in a couple hours with a group of people we may never have met before or may never play with again.
I guess that is why I don't feel obligated to nitpick the (totally optional) fluff of a character at a table I run during organized play. I certainly don't feel obligated to look for ways to ban someone from a table (or start fights, Jared. Not cool). I think nitpicking and rule-flexing should be done to get more people to play, not less, since the whole point of organized play is to bring new people into our hobby and introduce existing gamers to each other.
In a home game, with players I know personally and play with often, I am substantially more picky about what is brought to the table fluff-wise since we are going to be building an entire campaign together where that fluff will have a measurable effect on play. But in an organized play setting, with pre-made adventures and a time crunch on gameplay, what do I really care if someone makes their character the "son of lord such and such" or, using our earlier example, a lawful good person who grew up saying prayers to Asmodeus? As long as the player isn't:
A) being a bully
B) dragging down gameplay (being a drama queen)
C.) trying to use their background fluff to gains some mechanical in-game advantage (My dad is the mayor so I shouldn't go to jail!)
Then I'm not going to sweat over it. If the fluff is their business then it is their business. Not mine. I'm more concerned with meeting a fellow gamer and being a good ambassador to our much-maligned hobby to the new players than I am about making someone account for every spent copper piece (unless there is an obvious problem that needs to be addressed).
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You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
Depends on the Con. More likely the coordinator for the event will or at a major Con it'll be an assistant like Angus.
And to be quite fair, a paladin has strict rules for creation. Violating these rules in the name of "fluff" is still a violation of the rules*. Any GM is well within their right to tell you they think your character is illegal as written. If you feel that your character is indeed legal, then you can appeal to the coordinator. No threats necessary.
*Not taking a stance on the question at hand. Frankly, I don't care.
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
Depends on the Con. More likely the coordinator for the event will or at a major Con it'll be an assistant like Angus.
And to be quite fair, a paladin has strict rules for creation. Violating these rules in the name of "fluff" is still a violation of the rules*. Any GM is well within their right to tell you they think your character is illegal as written. If you feel that your character is indeed legal, then you can appeal to the coordinator. No threats necessary.
*Not taking a stance on the question at hand. Frankly, I don't care.
My point originally was, why boot someone for fluff? It's bound to end in disaster for someone. We're not talking about gold, items, stats...we're talking about the line next to hair color and eye color.
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
That's twice you've made a direct threat to me. I will not respond in kind.
I will however not allow a illegal character top play at my table. I will not allow a player to then simply move to another table and play there and continue play flaunting the rules. Play with a legal character and I have no complaint.
At this point you are in violation of the "No Bullying" clause of the rules and that is reason enough to block you from PFS.
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My point originally was, why boot someone for fluff? It's bound to end in disaster for someone. We're not talking about gold, items, stats...we're talking about the line next to hair color and eye color.At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
Depends on the Con. More likely the coordinator for the event will or at a major Con it'll be an assistant like Angus.
And to be quite fair, a paladin has strict rules for creation. Violating these rules in the name of "fluff" is still a violation of the rules*. Any GM is well within their right to tell you they think your character is illegal as written. If you feel that your character is indeed legal, then you can appeal to the coordinator. No threats necessary.
*Not taking a stance on the question at hand. Frankly, I don't care.
Short answer: you can always find someone somewhere who has a stick up their a$$ about something, and will tell you that their way is the one true way, and if you deviate they will punish you.
It could be homosexuality.
It could be race.
It could be what color eyes your character has marked on their sheet ("NO, A GNOME HAS BLUE EYES, NOT BLACK. FIX IT!!!" - did you know that gnomes eye color actually changed between 3.5 and 4e? Who'da thunk it?)
In this case, it's the belief system that your particular character has. Some people feel that it is impossible for a LG character to worship a deity that has been labeled as LE, or to even work for a region that has been labeled as LE. That no conceivable backstory could allow for a character who does so. And to that end, they would be prepared to boot you from their table, and mark your character as unplayable.
I currently play a Chelaxian Necromancer (Cleric). About a year or so ago, there was an equally big kerfuffle on the boards insisting that any character who cast Animate Dead automatically became evil and unplayable.
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
That's twice you've made a direct threat to me. I will not respond in kind.
I will however not allow a illegal character top play at my table. I will not allow a player to then simply move to another table and play there and continue play flaunting the rules. Play with a legal character and I have no complaint.
At this point you are in violation of the "No Bullying" clause of the rules and that is reason enough to block you from PFS.
Yes, you are so right. Responding to a poster and saying what I would do in a hypothetical situation is bullying. Got you.
Go ahead and block me from PFS. I don't actually play anyways lol.
ANYWAYS...
Here is a post from Josh Frost, director of PFS, where he calmly discusses how Paladins can be part of Cheliax faction (he in fact finds other factions such as Taldor and Qadira equivalently ´problematic´ for a Paladin, but never suggests that a Paladin could never associate with this faction, simply that SOME missions may have to be turned down occassionaly).
I couldn´t find a further post to reference, but this has been discussed before, and basically the idea is that there are many perspectives on what constitutes ¨the good of the Chelish nation¨, and good characters (incl. Paladins) may indeed be part of Chelish faction, though they would be recommended to roleplay their own opposition to the dominant diabolist ¨faction¨ within Chelish politics itself, and they may not be able to fulfill every mission (though other factions like Taldor and Qadira actually more often have ¨Evil¨ faction missions). ...Not all that much different than how truly Good Paladins find themselves within the corrupted courts of Qadira, except that Cheliax is ¨branded¨ as E-E-Evil while Qadira´s evil gets swept under all the persian carpets and belly dancers.
As already mentioned, Asmodean Paladins are not intended (Errata where they were mentioned) and are not PFS-legal.
Impressive...trolling a PFS thread when one doesn't actually participate in PFS.
I know right?!?
If
1) The Guide is silent on an issue....
2) ...RAW permits it...
3) ...AND Joshua has not spoken......it is permitted in PFS. Period.
First, you´re 100% right on as to how PFS functions, but Josh HAS spoken on this subject:
Paladins are a challenge. In Pathfinder Society, they are part of an organization that is not lawful and is not good. If they're part of the Cheliax, Taldor, or Qadira faction, they are also likely asked once or twice per scenario to do something that goes against their code.
If it´s not possible to have a Paladin in the Cheliax faction, you aren´t going to be playing one that is occasionally given missions that might violate your code. AKA, there isn´t a ban on Cheliax faction Paladins. Just Asmodeus worshipping Paladins are banned (as clearly stated by Paizo), thusly meaning any Paladin in the Cheliax faction is effectively at odds with the dominant forces/tendencies within Cheliax, since they DO worship Asmodeus.
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Until I see in the GUIDE that a Paladin of Asmodeus is available to play, I will not allow one at a table I run. Saying something on the interwebs is one thing and in my opinion carries no weight at the table until it is in the official guide.Just glancing through the thread when this jumped out at me. May I suggest, strongly, that you find another OP campaign?
The reality of it is that Joshua Frost is the Head Guy around here, and he chooses to handle most things as one-off rulings on this board. The Guide is restrictive in nature, not permissive (it primarily focuses on what you cannot and what you must do, not what you can choose to do.) As a general rule, if there's a dispute that requires the Head Guy to make a judgement, it's done as a one-off thing here on the boards and is official and binding.
If
1) The Guide is silent on an issue....
2) ...RAW permits it...
3) ...AND Joshua has not spoken......it is permitted in PFS. Period.
Not a point intended to be specific to this issue, either.
It's not permited. Paizo has stated that it is not permitted in PFS. James has stated this. Let this go.
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
That's twice you've made a direct threat to me. I will not respond in kind.
I will however not allow a illegal character top play at my table. I will not allow a player to then simply move to another table and play there and continue play flaunting the rules. Play with a legal character and I have no complaint.
At this point you are in violation of the "No Bullying" clause of the rules and that is reason enough to block you from PFS.
Hey;
he's threatened me with violence on Paizo before as well.Not that I'm scared or anything...(haw haw) it was one of my favorite hobbies in my younger days.
I'm just curious where your other threat is located;
Habitual offenses vs. one time blowup and all....
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
That's twice you've made a direct threat to me. I will not respond in kind.
I will however not allow a illegal character top play at my table. I will not allow a player to then simply move to another table and play there and continue play flaunting the rules. Play with a legal character and I have no complaint.
At this point you are in violation of the "No Bullying" clause of the rules and that is reason enough to block you from PFS.
Hey;
he's threatened me with violence on Paizo before as well.Not that I'm scared or anything...(haw haw) it was one of my favorite hobbies in my younger days.
I'm just curious where your other threat is located;
Habitual offenses vs. one time blowup and all....
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At which point, the rulebook would meet your face. I'm just saying. Kick me out for FLUFF? And...are you actually going to be able to stop me, if I go "OK!" and walk off to the next table with a spot open and play there? Is Josh going to descend from the heavens to stop me?
You come to my table with an illegal character I will remove you from play.
That's twice you've made a direct threat to me. I will not respond in kind.
I will however not allow a illegal character top play at my table. I will not allow a player to then simply move to another table and play there and continue play flaunting the rules. Play with a legal character and I have no complaint.
At this point you are in violation of the "No Bullying" clause of the rules and that is reason enough to block you from PFS.
Hey;
he's threatened me with violence on Paizo before as well.
Not that I'm scared or anything...(haw haw) it was one of my favorite hobbies in my younger days.I'm just curious where your other threat is located;
Habitual offenses vs. one time blowup and all....
Heath, don't want to throw gas on the fire, or make issues for Josh when he gets back so I got to leave that alone.
<sigh>
James directly stated that Asmodeus worshipping Paladins are a no-go.
Josh has stated that Cheliax FACTION Paladins are fine in PFS, though they are pretty much dedicated against the Asmodeus-aligned forces who dominate Cheliax itself, in other words they are patriots for their country who see enemies of the true Cheliax both within and outside Cheliax.
Paladins are a challenge. In Pathfinder Society, they are part of an organization that is not lawful and is not good. If they're part of the Cheliax, Taldor, or Qadira faction, they are also likely asked once or twice per scenario to do something that goes against their code.
If
1) The Guide is silent on an issue....
2) ...RAW permits it...
3) ...AND Joshua has not spoken......it is permitted in PFS. Period.
Thanks for the consise summary, Chris,
that´s pretty much how I undestand things to work!
Creative Director
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Cheliax faction paladins are completely legal.
Asmodeus-worshiping paladins are not.
You can be a Cheliax faction character who doesn't worship Asmodeus. The vast majority of Chelaix's citizens don't actually worship Asmodeus, in fact... although they're all afraid of him.
In any event... this thread has served its purpose. I'm locking it down before it gets too much more crazy.