To make room to make the summoner actually a summoner the eidolon has to be nerfed. What are the major problems with the Eidolon at the moment?
I would agree that it would be nice to see a proportional powerdown of the eidolon n exchange for bringing back the summon sla's.
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
I agree it can be really powerful, but strictly limiting it to 2 attacks almost completely defeats the purpose, and would land the eidolon too far behind the big cat animal companion. I would instead put a cap on it related to the maximum number of natural attacks, with a minimum of 2, and an average of 2/3 the maximum number of natural attacks you can have.
- claws, they are the only weapons which can trigger rend and by getting as many as possible you can concentrate feats and other weapons specific boosts in one place.
Solution : can only be put on arms, together with the next one.
I dont agree with this one. There is no reason why legs cant have claws, it goes counter to all the standards in animals and monsters, and it would really hurt low level quadraped eidolons (before they become particularly powerful). A better solution might be to increase the cost every time you take the same attack evolution, not spend an extra point on it (like with bite) but actually take it for a new attack(or set of attacks) bump the cost up 1 point.
- limbs, having more than 2 arms is incredibly powerful, there is multiweapon fighting abuse, you can wield a two handed weapon and a shield, etc etc.
Solution : can only get arms 1 time (also makes the claws+rend combo a little less of a no brainer)
This one makes more sense to deal with the dozen claw attacks issue, I would say limiting taking additional arms evolutions by level (say once for every 6 levels minimum once).
- pincers, underpowered with above changes.
Solution : become primary attacks- slam, underpowered period.
Solution : you get two slam attacks, not one.- tail slap, underpowered period.
Solution : roll tail and tail slap into one 1 point evolution.
I'm ok with these
- too bloody many primary natural attacks.
Solution : Only bite, claws, pincers, slams and rake remain primary.What do you think?
So wait which attacks does that leave out as not primary? Will it even make a difference? Eventually multiattack makes it almost a non-issue, and most of the top choice attack options are there in your list anyway.
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I think as written, the eidolon is stupid and too powerful and is too reminiscent of pokemon. Since the playtest I have banned this class (summoner) from my tabletop and after APG felt that it would remain retired forever. Though, the artwork is nice.
I am dreading when this class makes it into an AP as an NPC baddie. I already know I will have to remake that character.
I think as written, the eidolon is stupid and too powerful and is too reminiscent of pokemon. Since the playtest I have banned this class (summoner) from my tabletop and after APG felt that it would remain retired forever. Though, the artwork is nice.
I am dreading when this class makes it into an AP as an NPC baddie. I already know I will have to remake that character.
Thank you for your constructive addition to the conversation. Clearly your opinion is based on extensive playtest experience and a well thought out unbiased analysis.
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Right now, my only nerf for the class in my home game is going to be restricting Bestiary feats to only the feats expressly allowed to it (i.e. no Multiweapon fighting, no Improved Natural Attacks, Multiattack only at 9th level as the bonus from level). IMO, it cuts out the worst problems of the class by making the exploitive tricks too difficult to be worth it.
Nerfing the Pounce Evolution requires the nerf of the Greater Beast Totem rage power barbarians can get. I can't see why the other melee classes can't have Pounce anyway...
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
I agree it can be really powerful, but strictly limiting it to 2 attacks almost completely defeats the purpose, and would land the eidolon too far behind the big cat animal companion. I would instead put a cap on it related to the maximum number of natural attacks, with a minimum of 2, and an average of 2/3 the maximum number of natural attacks you can have.
Putting a double cap on it is silly. Capping natural attacks inherently caps pounce.
The real problem with the Eidolon is the ability to wield weapons and gain attacks from it's BAB.
How to start to fix the Eidolon: Remove its BAB and ability to wield weapons.
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
I agree it can be really powerful, but strictly limiting it to 2 attacks almost completely defeats the purpose, and would land the eidolon too far behind the big cat animal companion. I would instead put a cap on it related to the maximum number of natural attacks, with a minimum of 2, and an average of 2/3 the maximum number of natural attacks you can have.
Putting a double cap on it is silly. Capping natural attacks inherently caps pounce.
The real problem with the Eidolon is the ability to wield weapons and gain attacks from it's BAB.
How to start to fix the Eidolon: Remove its BAB and ability to wield weapons.
Or maybe just restrict the combination of natural and weapon attacks?
I dont think i'd want to cut out whole swaths of concepts that could be covered by the current eidolon, that would defeat the purpose of having this creature you imagine up and pull from the either.
Maybe simply making it not possible to combine weapon and natural attacks, or limiting it to 1 weapon attack and natural attacks or 1 natural attack and weapon attacks (though this ofcourse creates a new exception for the eidolon).
With normal pounce you will always have the problem, pounce or gimp ... and I don't want to give that people that choice. There should be multiple effective choices.The Druid has the same problem ... big cat or gimp. I don't really want to design the Eidolon around something which was pretty fail to begin with.
In a game where belts of battle or similar items are available I'd say no problem. If pounce is simply a way to save money and item slots it's fine, it's just another reasonable cost/benefit decision which can go either way as a matter of preference ... but for most people PF is not such a game, and pounce when available is simply not a choice at all for someone who refuses to intentionally gimp himself.
Whether you want to or not, its still there, and it is an important part of the comparison. Trying to ignore the fact that the big cat animal companion is by far the best for the druid only leads to a class that doesnt cut the mustard when it comes to power level. And that is even less of a positive direction then a class that is forced to make a choice that is obvious. If a big cat animal companion is hands down better then the eidolon, you have failed in one of the primary goals of the summoner which is to have a class that has the best and most capable 'pet'.
Too complex, especially since I want to limit primary natural attacks to 3 (except for rake, but those are only for grapple so they don't really count) to keep damage under control.
Too complex, especially since I want to limit primary natural attacks to 3 (except for rake, but those are only for grapple so they don't really count) to keep damage under control.
THe problems is you then limit imagination. One of the bigest appeals of the class is how free form the eidolon can be. I think restricting the limbs and forms and such really limits the class, and basically you just end up with the equivalent of an extraplanar animal companion instead of something unique. I'd rather see a limit on how many arms, claws whatever the eidolon can use and not how many they can have.
A fighter is stuck with 2 arms his entire career and animated shields have been nerfed in PF ... more than 2 arms for the Eidolon is really too much a kick in the balls for the melee PCs.
Not true at all. A melee focused martial character can out damage an eidolon dramatically. They have better stats (particularly at early levels), higher damage and a hoste of abilities centered around doing damamge and either avoiding damage or taking it better. They hold up just fine regardless of how many arms they have.
Presently gore and sting are also primary, and of course you can get as many claws as you want. Tail slap, tentacles and wing buffet are already secondary ... and extremely inferior because of it, it doesn't really make sense to get anything but primary attacks. As I said above I want to give people multiple effective choices.
Trying to present lots of equal options and keeping the class balanced with the rest of the game are very different goals. I would recommend choosing one or the other as a focus or you will likely succeed at neither.
Not true at all. A melee focused martial character can out damage an eidolon dramatically.
How?
Lvl 10 Half Elf Summoners eidolon attacks AC 24 dude
HD 8, BAB +8, Feats 4 (only power attack will be used in this one), Str&Dex+4, Ev pool 16, ability increase x2
Evolutions:
Limbs(hands) (2)
Claws x2 (2)
Pounce (1)
Improved Damage (Claws) (1)¨
Large (4)
Anergy Attacks (Acid) (2)
Rend (2)
Bite (1)
Improved Damage (Bite) (1)
Items: Belt of Giant Strenght +6, Boots of Speed
Spells on: Greater Magic Fang on every attack & Heroism (Summoner can use 4th level spots for some)
Str: 14 + 2 (Ability Increases) + 4 (Str&Dex +4) + 8 (Large) + 6 (Belt) = 34
Summoner casts Enlarge Person (Str to 36) to Eidolon, Eidolon uses boots and charges.
Attack bonus: 8 (BAB) + 13 (Str) + 2 (Heroism) + 2 (Greater Magic Fang) + 2 (Charge) - 3 (Power Attack) - 2 (Size) + 1 (Haste) = 23
Since 1 is miss and 20 is critical, I'll just add up the values
Bite:
[ 3d6 (Basic damage) + d6 (Acid) + 19 (3/2 x Str) + 9 (Power attack) + 2 (Magic Fang)] x 2 (Haste) = 88
Claws:
[ 2d6 (Basic damage) + d6 (Acid) + 13 (Str) + 6 (Power Attack) + 2 (Magic Fang) ] x 4 (# of Claws) = 126
Rend:
[ 2d6 (Basic damage) + d6 (Acid) + 19 (Strx3/2) + 6 (Power Attack) + 2 (Magic Fang) ] = 37,5
Total: 88 + 126 + 37,5 = 251,5 DPR
*sigh*
Ok, not a flame, but may I point out the build above is unrealistic?
Belt of Giant Strength +6 is 36,000gp.
Boots of Speed is 12,000gp
Level 10 is 62,000gp.
So, the eidelon is taking up 48/62 = 77.4% of the character's wealth by level. That is I believe unrealistic.
Additionally, I don't believe Enlarge Person can be cast on the Eidelon (that's a big argument I know, but the ability is 'Spells with a target of 'You', not spells you can target on yourself').
Finally, the fighter is not fully kitted out for 10th level with equipment. A 10th level fighter with 24 AC is actually very low. Most 5th level fighters have AC's in the 23 to 27 range. So a 10th level fighter with a 24 ac is not realistic.
Now, if you are having the eidelon attack a 5th level fighter, then yeah, he's going to eat his lunch. However, so is a TWF 10th level fighter, or a 10th level monk with flurry. That's what happens when you put a 10th level person up against a 5th level.
Belt of Giant Strength +6 is 36,000gp.
Boots of Speed is 12,000gpLevel 10 is 62,000gp.
So, the eidelon is taking up 48/62 = 77.4% of the character's wealth by level. That is I believe unrealistic.
I think summoner doesn't need much himself. Even if you get down a notch, I still would like to see the fighter who challenges DPRs over 200. Since 77.4<100 , the eidolon can also go up (More acid from Amulet of Mighty fists for example).
Additionally, I don't believe Enlarge Person can be cast on the Eidelon (that's a big argument I know, but the ability is 'Spells with a target of 'You', not spells you can target on yourself').
Share Spells has 2 uses. The one you are referring to is "The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.". However I'm using the next: "A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not
affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)."
I'm traveling right now, and have no books, or I would be happy to build a broken 10th level TWF/crit build that can dump out that range of damage.
I would also like to point out that your data above assumes the eidelon hits every time. However, he has 23-3 = 20 attack bonus, so he only hits on a 4 or better.
I would also like to point out that your data above assumes the eidelon hits every time. However, he has 23-3 = 20 attack bonus, so he only hits on a 4 or better.
If you are referring to power attack, its counted in. Miss with a roll of 1 is left out because 20 gives you critical (and 2x damage). I'm leaving out rolling 20 first and 1 afterwards because I'm lazy.
I thought the Eidilon was already nerfed pretty much making the summoner one of the weakest classes in the APG
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But he is still a glass cannon anyways. Just a few things to consider.
22 AC (+12 NA, -2 size, +2 Dex), 14 Dex, 17 Con, 10 Wis, 7 Int.
a) Touch AC of 10. Any caster is going to love throwing a ranged touch spell at this beast. And well, the evasion is a non-issue with ranged touch attacks.
b) Maxed skill points into Perception gives a possible of 8. And it's size is going to give bonuses to anyone approaching to spot it first at a great distance. The way to deal with a beast like this is from a distance. It has no ranged attack. It is also grounded. If the opponents can keep their distance, the beast is toast. Cue the flying ranger...
c) If we assume he took Toughness as a feat, that gives him 76 hit points. But if he gets lured 100 ft away from his master, that drops to 38 hp. The summoner cannot invoke the Life Link until the eidolon reaches -17 hp, so there is a nice sweet spot to drop it to unconscious in one round.
d) Will save of 6 vs enchantments, or 2 verses all other Will saves. Again, a caster is going to have a field day.
e) Any rough terrain, or twisting path around obstacles, negates a charge, thereby negating the pounce. A five foot hallway or doorway is pretty much pinning the beast.
f) And if the beast charged, the summoner is sitting back hoping the rest of the party protects him. It would actually be harder to one shot the summoner, but would be great to see the charging beast dissolve into a wisp of smoke before the end of this charge. The bouncing boots and belt falling at the feat of the fighter would be comical.
Yes, you have created a high DPS glass cannon. It can, under the right circumstances, get in a very lethal shot. But, so much has been neglected in the build that there is a significant chance that one shot would not be used before the "cannon" shatters. That build is about as useful as a scroll of Disintegrate.
Now, trade in the boots for Winged Boots, and toss an Invisibility spell on him instead of Enlarge Person, and the lethality factor goes up significantly from surprise.
Belt of Giant Strength +6 is 36,000gp.
Boots of Speed is 12,000gp
Even with +4 it will still gib anything upto CR13 in one pounce, which is not reasonable.
Additionally, I don't believe Enlarge Person can be cast on the Eidelon (that's a big argument I know, but the ability is 'Spells with a target of 'You', not spells you can target on yourself')."A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)."
This is preceded by how spells with target "you" are handled, but the sentence doesn't say "these spells" or "such spells" or anything like that, it simply says spells. So any spell from the summoner list loses it's type restrictions when cast by the summoner on his Eidolon.
A 10th level fighter with 24 AC is actually very low.Yes, but it's average for a CR10 opponent.
You can't compare a PC summoner to an npc fighter and expect people to not call you on it. Now if you visit the DPR olympics you might get a better readout of what you should be going against. If someone rebuild Tempest Ted with the APG feats that would be even better.
A CR 10 fighter is an 11 level fighter.
If you are going to give the fighter npc stats then the summoner should be restricted in a similar fashion. I am sure my 9th level wizard can take on an 10th level npc based on the gear difference alone.
Overpowered or nerfed into uselesness. Make up your bloody minds ! ;-)
Eidolons start relatively weak as they have 1 HD less than for example druids companion. Also it takes a few evolutions to gain abilities that Druids companion has. But after that evolutions are extra compared what other pets get. Also the faster progress in other fields make eidolons soon go past their competition (and then the other martial chars). Also making an eidolon is a multi point buy in witch there are a LOT of opportunities to min-max. So you can build very different level of eidolons in a given level. Those are the things that make people feel very differently about them I think.
On the side note I don't think that "pounce" is the ability that breaks eidolon. They have many more abusable traits, like large size's reach for Bipeds, huge armor bonuses (AC 50 at level 10), blindsight, DR that is very hard to overcome...
I also don't think that PCs should be in a "holy balance" compared to each other. For me its ok, for someone to be "stronger". That said, I think summoner is ok especially, if there are too few players (playing pre made adventures) and the GM keeps his/her eye on the things.
I would also like to point out that your data above assumes the eidelon hits every time. However, he has 23-3 = 20 attack bonus, so he only hits on a 4 or better.If you are referring to power attack, its counted in. Miss with a roll of 1 is left out because 20 gives you critical (and 2x damage). I'm leaving out rolling 20 first and 1 afterwards because I'm lazy.
Ah, ok, missed that, thought it was 23 before power attack.
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.
I agree it can be really powerful, but strictly limiting it to 2 attacks almost completely defeats the purpose, and would land the eidolon too far behind the big cat animal companion. I would instead put a cap on it related to the maximum number of natural attacks, with a minimum of 2, and an average of 2/3 the maximum number of natural attacks you can have.
Putting a double cap on it is silly. Capping natural attacks inherently caps pounce.
The real problem with the Eidolon is the ability to wield weapons and gain attacks from it's BAB.
How to start to fix the Eidolon: Remove its BAB and ability to wield weapons.
Or maybe just restrict the combination of natural and weapon attacks?
I dont think i'd want to cut out whole swaths of concepts that could be covered by the current eidolon, that would defeat the purpose of having this creature you imagine up and pull from the either.
Maybe simply making it not possible to combine weapon and natural attacks, or limiting it to 1 weapon attack and natural attacks or 1 natural attack and weapon attacks (though this ofcourse creates a new exception for the eidolon).
You could remove natural attacks entirely and just allow it to use weapons and it would still be broken.
Yes, you have created a high DPS glass cannon. It can, under the right circumstances, get in a very lethal shot. But, so much has been neglected in the build that there is a significant chance that one shot would not be used before the "cannon" shatters. That build is about as useful as a scroll of Disintegrate.
Yes, I was answering to: "Not true at all. A melee focused martial character can out damage an eidolon dramatically." There are much more effective eidolons and combat tactics.
You can't compare a PC summoner to an npc fighter and expect people to not call you on it. Now if you visit the DPR olympics you might get a better readout of what you should be going against. If someone rebuild Tempest Ted with the APG feats that would be even better.
DPR olympics is exactly where I got AC 24 in the first place. Tempest Ted did about 60 points of damage per round against AC 24, so I'm hoping APG doesn't have feats that can get that over 200.
You could remove natural attacks entirely and just allow it to use weapons and it would still be broken.
I hate the word broken, but I think that eidolon with weapons is more dangerous than natural attack eidolon at least on higher levels.
Also eidolon would be dangerous without weapons and natural attacks, just using combat manouvers. Or Use Magic Device (wands). Also the blind sight could allow eidolon to use Smoke Sticks, thus preventing vision from most (Summoner can see through eidolon, so he would be clear). Eidolon can outskill almost any character with Skilled evolution ( Diplomacy - " Gee that mutated Serpentine looks trustworthy, lets go with its advice ! " ). When summoner gains a new level, eidolon can take any skill by raising int (thus gaining the skill points) and be good at it by taking Skilled. Also the is the far perversion of eidolon Riding other eidolon (2 summoners).
The point being that eidolons options are vast. I would advice rookie GMs to keep a distance to this class and experienced GMs to keep a close leach over summoners.
To make room to make the summoner actually a summoner the eidolon has to be nerfed. What are the major problems with the Eidolon at the moment?
- pounce, too powerful.
Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.- claws, they are the only weapons which can trigger rend and by getting as many as possible you can concentrate feats and other weapons specific boosts in one place.
Solution : can only be put on arms, together with the next one.- limbs, having more than 2 arms is incredibly powerful, there is multiweapon fighting abuse, you can wield a two handed weapon and a shield, etc etc.
Solution : can only get arms 1 time (also makes the claws+rend combo a little less of a no brainer)- pincers, underpowered with above changes.
Solution : become primary attacks- slam, underpowered period.
Solution : you get two slam attacks, not one.- tail slap, underpowered period.
Solution : roll tail and tail slap into one 1 point evolution.- too bloody many primary natural attacks.
Solution : Only bite, claws, pincers, slams and rake remain primary.What do you think?
Not too excited about double capping pounce. Do have an observation on Slam though. You get two slam attacks as it is now.
Overpowered or nerfed into uselesness. Make up your bloody minds ! ;-)Eidolons start relatively weak as they have 1 HD less than for example druids companion. Also it takes a few evolutions to gain abilities that Druids companion has. But after that evolutions are extra compared what other pets get. Also the faster progress in other fields make eidolons soon go past their competition (and then the other martial chars). Also making an eidolon is a multi point buy in witch there are a LOT of opportunities to min-max. So you can build very different level of eidolons in a given level. Those are the things that make people feel very differently about them I think.
On the side note I don't think that "pounce" is the ability that breaks eidolon. They have many more abusable traits, like large size's reach for Bipeds, huge armor bonuses (AC 50 at level 10), blindsight, DR that is very hard to overcome...
I also don't think that PCs should be in a "holy balance" compared to each other. For me its ok, for someone to be "stronger". That said, I think summoner is ok especially, if there are too few players (playing pre made adventures) and the GM keeps his/her eye on the things.
How the heck to you come up with an AC of 50 at level 10? I can see that if you put like every possible magic item and buff the eidolon can handle, but that isn't something they get just from being an eidolon.
Do have an observation on Slam though. You get two slam attacks as it is now.It uses singular throughout the description. Compare it to the Claws evolution, which clearly says you get two attacks, whereas Slam gives you "a slam attack".
Well just reason it out. If I wanted 2 slam attacks, I would need 4 arms. Because it says that you need an equal # Limbs evolution. So even though I have a free arm, I need two more arms to get another slam attack. That isn't right. It is probably another mistake
Another suggestion, since this is in the home brew section. Start over on the class.
I like (ok, love) the eidolon and what can be done with it. I don't think it is over powered but that is because I tend not optimize very well and I often miss some of the killer combinations that others see. That being said, however, I don't see the current summoner really filling the archetype. I would split the classes in two.
I would leave the eidolon with the eidolomancer (name stollen from another thread). I would remove some of the restrictions like range from the pc, disappear if the pc falls asleep, and gear restrictions. With these changes I would also take away the SLA and alter the spell list.
To make a summoner I would start with a wizard give them the ability to turn any spell into a summon monster (a la druid), give them the summon SLA but with reduced uses/day, and give spell focus conjuration at level 1. I would take away the arcane bond, add an additional restricted school, give no bonus spells/level for the conjuration school, and take away the scribe scroll feat.
The classes may need a little more tweaking than that, but I think this is much more in line with a true summoner. This is just my 2c.
Another suggestion, since this is in the home brew section. Start over on the class.
I like (ok, love) the eidolon and what can be done with it. I don't think it is over powered but that is because I tend not optimize very well and I often miss some of the killer combinations that others see. That being said, however, I don't see the current summoner really filling the archetype. I would split the classes in two.
I would leave the eidolon with the eidolomancer (name stollen from another thread). I would remove some of the restrictions like range from the pc, disappear if the pc falls asleep, and gear restrictions. With these changes I would also take away the SLA and alter the spell list.
To make a summoner I would start with a wizard give them the ability to turn any spell into a summon monster (a la druid), give them the summon SLA but with reduced uses/day, and give spell focus conjuration at level 1. I would take away the arcane bond, add an additional restricted school, give no bonus spells/level for the conjuration school, and take away the scribe scroll feat.
The classes may need a little more tweaking than that, but I think this is much more in line with a true summoner. This is just my 2c.
LOL,
What about something like this?Sorry, just I guess people tend to think alike on this thing.
My only complaint with the Summoner is Pounce. It is a ridiculously powerful ability that requires only one evolution point. A quick fix would be to bump that up to a cost of three or four. Aside from Pounce, I don't have too big a problem with it.
My only complaint with the Summoner is Pounce. It is a ridiculously powerful ability that requires only one evolution point. A quick fix would be to bump that up to a cost of three or four. Aside from Pounce, I don't have too big a problem with it.You don't have a problem with a critter doing so much damage per round he makes a joke of the CR system, makes the normal melee PCs cry and requires every encounter to be build around his weaknesses to be a challenge?
Now granted, a DC optimized SoD caster with a metamagic rod of persistent spell does the exact same thing ... but just because PF has other problems which need to be fixed doesn't mean they should just keep piling it on.
I'm currently GMing with an optimizer Summoner. His full attacks can tear down my monsters really quickly, but in return his Eidolon is very vulnerable so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. However, his Eidolon can move 80 feet and then make a full attack, which is ridiculous to say the least. It is very difficult to counter and makes the other melee characters feel useless.
I guess I have another problem, and that would be the Life Link ability. The aforementioned Eidolon is pretty weak in the HP department, but with a halfling Summoner with plenty of HP acting from beind the frontlines as a battery, his HP is essentially more than doubled.
We are going to start a campaign and one of the PCs plans to be a summoner, but is really concerned it will just be a weak "buff" class for his Eidolon.
So why do people fear what you can do with the Eidolon? Is there something I may need to be concerned with?
My only complaint with the Summoner is Pounce. It is a ridiculously powerful ability that requires only one evolution point. A quick fix would be to bump that up to a cost of three or four. Aside from Pounce, I don't have too big a problem with it.You don't have a problem with a critter doing so much damage per round he makes a joke of the CR system, makes the normal melee PCs cry and requires every encounter to be build around his weaknesses to be a challenge?
Now granted, a DC optimized SoD caster with a metamagic rod of persistent spell does the exact same thing ... but just because PF has other problems which need to be fixed doesn't mean they should just keep piling it on.
Now, that's just a load of crap. First off, the CR system is broken for any kind of skilled optimizer no matter the class. You could build a party of four monks who'd be able to waste less than 25% of their resources on a level-appropriate encounter.
Secondly, it's such a glass cannon that you don't have to build encounters around it's weaknesses - they're so many, I'd be surprised if not 70% of all encounters DID this already, as long as opponents are played smart.
1. Anytime there's not a straight line between the Eidolon and the opponent.
2. Anytime there's a 10ft. passage that has to be passed.
3. Anytime there's any difficult terrain (like, you know, in any forest at all) between the eidolon and the opponent.
4. Anytime the opponent is/has any form of caster that gets to act before the eidolon (likely given it's +4 initiative which any arcane caster should beat and it's bad perception score)
5. Anytime the opponent is flying.
6. Anytime the opponent is a decent archer that gets to act before the eidolon.
7. Anytime the opponent gets to act first, because in almost every single circumstance, they're going to be able to find cover.
8. Anytime the opponent is more than 100ft. away from the summoner.
See where I'm going?
Then I'm actually unsure if haste works with natural attacks. The spell clearly states "with a weapon you are holding", rather than just "with a weapon", or skipping that sentence. You aren't really holding your mouth (a breath weapon should go though XD) I don't know if there's any official statement on this though.
Also, your math if off. The acid damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit. A crit with one claw and a miss with the other doesn't equal out. If we recalculate your math, this would be the damage taking a +4 belt into account (for reasons mentioned above):
Chance to hit is 90% per attack. Chance for a critical is 5% per attack with 90% chance to confirm, so it increases damage by 4.5%.
Thus, damage per attack is:
.9 * Damage + .045 * PhysDamage
Thus, damage is:
Bite1: 4d6+29*0,9 + 3d6+29*0,045 = d6 (Acid) + 19 (3/2 x Str) + 9 (Power attack) + 2 (Magic Fang)] x 2 (Haste) = 40
Bite2 (haste): 4d6+29*0,9 + 3d6+29*0,045 = d6 (Acid) + 19 (3/2 x Str) + 9 (Power attack) + 2 (Magic Fang)] x 2 (Haste) = 40
Claws:
3d6+20*0,9 + 2d6+20*0,045 x 4 (# of Claws) = 118
Rend:
3d6+20 = 31
Total damage: 229. If haste can't be used with natural weapons: 189.
(Now, of course this is a helluvalot of damage, but just so we're clear about what we are talking about.)
That said, I'm all for pounce costing 3 or 4 evolution points. That seems fair and all, and would solve the problem nicely. If the eidolon has to wait a whole turn in melee range, there wouldn't be anything broken about this build since it would die in 9 of 10 cases.
I'm currently GMing with an optimizer Summoner. His full attacks can tear down my monsters really quickly, but in return his Eidolon is very vulnerable so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. However, his Eidolon can move 80 feet and then make a full attack, which is ridiculous to say the least. It is very difficult to counter and makes the other melee characters feel useless.
Note that it only works on charges, and that all kinds of charges are very, very easy to counter if you're in a somewhat confined space, and just very easy if you're in an open space. Any enemy that knows about this party would realize that it's quite useful to get a 1st-level commoner with improved initiative and a bag'o'caltrops to hang around.
If you're in a dungeon, mountain, city or hills, there's a large chance a 15 ft. beast can't charge. If you're in a forest or swamp, it's almost a guarantee.
EDIT: Corrected some math, sorry for bad math first.
Taken altogether it will make melee PCs cry.
While I respect teh opinions of other on this board, I have to say, this Eidolon DPR build would be useless in my current sub-optimized campaign. AC24? My ROGUE has AC26 @7th level when using combat expertise, my fighter has 30+ under those same circumstances. Plus it can't swim, or fly, or climb, leaving it vulnerable to all manner of nastiness. Hell, I'd have a field day with just a Harpy and this thing. Do my melee PCs out damage this build? Hell no. Could they, working together, kill in in one round while avoiding most of it's attacks? Easily. Teamwork is the key, something so many optimizers seem to ignore.
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I have to wholeheartily agree with the previous poster - teamwork is the key.
On a different note - I was wondering:
Enlarge Person works on a humanoid target. I'm not sure a bipedal would be classified as humanoid.
As far as I understand the damage bonus you should only get 150% strength bonus if your bite is the only primary attack. So you would lose 6 point of damage for a lower strength bonus for the bite and 3 points of damage for the power attack. Times 2 for haste.
Thod
From the rules - bold is mine:
If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
I have to wholeheartily agree with the previous poster - teamwork is the key.
On a different note - I was wondering:
Enlarge Person works on a humanoid target. I'm not sure a bipedal would be classified as humanoid.
Eidolon has a special ability that lets it be the target of spells that it's type (outsider) normally doesn't allow.
As far as I understand the damage bonus you should only get 150% strength bonus if your bite is the only primary attack. So you would lose 6 point of damage for a lower strength bonus for the bite and 3 points of damage for the power attack. Times 2 for haste.Thod
From the rules - bold is mine:
If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
This is because he took the bite evolution while having a bite. It's specific for that evolution, not bite attacks in general.
But he is still a glass cannon anyways. Just a few things to consider.
22 AC (+12 NA, -2 size, +2 Dex), 14 Dex, 17 Con, 10 Wis, 7 Int.a) Touch AC of 10. Any caster is going to love throwing a ranged touch spell at this beast. And well, the evasion is a non-issue with ranged touch attacks.
b) Maxed skill points into Perception gives a possible of 8. And it's size is going to give bonuses to anyone approaching to spot it first at a great distance. The way to deal with a beast like this is from a distance. It has no ranged attack. It is also grounded. If the opponents can keep their distance, the beast is toast. Cue the flying ranger...
c) If we assume he took Toughness as a feat, that gives him 76 hit points. But if he gets lured 100 ft away from his master, that drops to 38 hp. The summoner cannot invoke the Life Link until the eidolon reaches -17 hp, so there is a nice sweet spot to drop it to unconscious in one round.
d) Will save of 6 vs enchantments, or 2 verses all other Will saves. Again, a caster is going to have a field day.
e) Any rough terrain, or twisting path around obstacles, negates a charge, thereby negating the pounce. A five foot hallway or doorway is pretty much pinning the beast.
f) And if the beast charged, the summoner is sitting back hoping the rest of the party protects him. It would actually be harder to one shot the summoner, but would be great to see the charging beast dissolve into a wisp of smoke before the end of this charge. The bouncing boots and belt falling at the feat of the fighter would be comical.Yes, you have created a high DPS glass cannon. It can, under the right circumstances, get in a very lethal shot. But, so much has been neglected in the build that there is a significant chance that one shot would not be used before the "cannon" shatters. That build is about as useful as a scroll of Disintegrate.
Now, trade in the boots for Winged Boots, and toss an Invisibility spell on him instead of Enlarge Person, and the lethality factor goes up...
I'm giving this a +2