Oh and one other thing, and I quote:"I have a glowing rune on my forehead that I can't cover up except with invisibility." where the hell did you draw that one from? It's nowhere in the rules for a summoner at all.It's a feat they all take so that they can complain how much the class sucks.
I know I shouldn't respond to flame bait, but seriously? Can't you guys at least try to sound like you even bothered to read the class you're upholding? Or is that too much trouble to be bothered with, when all you're really doing is spewing bile?
The eidolon also bears a
glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the
summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned.
While this rune can be hidden through mundane means,
it cannot be concealed through magic that changes
appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although
invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
Oh and one other thing, and I quote:"I have a glowing rune on my forehead that I can't cover up except with invisibility." where the hell did you draw that one from? It's nowhere in the rules for a summoner at all.
Actually, it is.
The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
He's wrong about only invisibility working, but the Summoner does have a neon "shoot me first" sign on his forehead.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
Oh and one other thing, and I quote:"I have a glowing rune on my forehead that I can't cover up except with invisibility." where the hell did you draw that one from? It's nowhere in the rules for a summoner at all.Actually, it is.
The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).He's wrong about only invisibility working, but the Summoner does have a neon "shoot me first" sign on his forehead.
EDIT: Ninja'd.
To me, mundane methods would be a disguise check. Disguise is not on the summoner skill list. Not that that's a huge issue anymore, like it was in 3.5, but it's another skill sink.
Can't be hidden except by invisibility, really long bangs, a hat, a piratey bandana, et cetera.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Sorry, I was being a jack*ss, if people read the whole thing, then they would realise that they are being obnoxious about this whole glowing rune thing.
the point is, it can be hidden through mundane means or invisibility. Wear a hat, a bandana, whatever, grow your hair out. If you want to walk around with a nbeon sign then go ahead, I'll just cover it up and go back to kicking butt without anyone knowing that i'm connected to that monstrosity thats terrorizing them.
The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned.
While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
Emphasis mine.
It seems that a simple hat, headband or helm can hide the 'neon sign', after all.
I have to say, I do not like particularly a couple of the final changes to the class (especially the 'unconscious' thing), and some changes introduced in the Beta version (and kept in the Final - like the shared magic items). Plus, some special abilities (Life Bond, Life Link) are almost useless as they stand at the moment.
But overall, I have to say that I like the class. Could have been made better ? Perhaps. Is it overpowered OR underpowered ? Judging from the heated debats among those who say that it is too cheesy and those who say that it is too lame... maybe it is simply balanced.
Just my 2 cents, and peace to all.
EDIT: Ninja'd by half the Paizo Forum :D .
Sorry, I was being a jack*ss, if people read the whole thing, then they would realise that they are being obnoxious about this whole glowing rune thing.
the point is, it can be hidden through mundane means or invisibility. Wear a hat, a bandana, whatever, grow your hair out. If you want to walk around with a nbeon sign then go ahead, I'll just cover it up and go back to kicking butt without anyone knowing that i'm connected to that monstrosity thats terrorizing them.
Thanks, sorry if I got jack*ssery back, I just get so tired of people coming on and spewing bile rather than discussing.
See, here's the thing. If all it requires is a hat, then it's a stupid entry that's supposed to be some limitation on the summoner. Everyone will just, as you say, throw on a hat. If it's just supposed to be fluff, then why give a paragraph of what will not hide it, but then just say 'Mundane means will'.
The only thing I can see is that mundane means refers to the standard mundane disguise skill being used to hide it. In which case, it's not 'put on a hat and no one will ever know'. Instead it's 'Make a disguise check, write that down'. Then people who encounter you get a perception check vs your disguise check, per standard mundane rules.
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.
Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
... and then make the observation that his Eidolon also doesn't have a glowing rune despite having no mundane coverage and not being invisible, and then conclude that the art has zero bearing on the rules. Of course, we already knew this from the core rulebook where the Monk iconic is using a temple sword and a cestus or brass knuckles despite none of those being available.
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
The rune is pretty clearly right there on his hat in the preview art. Was it taken out in the coloured version?
Well, since we're all admitting to being jackass'ery, I was trolling out of boredom. But in all seriousness, the Summoner is far from Nerffed and or OP.
I have been playing one in a PBP game since they were released as play test mats, and built my Eidolon according to a sneaky bastard type. I know for sure with spells at his disposal he was going to need to be hit and run, and that's the kind of character I built him into.
There were people who said I should make it a melee beast, but it didn't fit with the character, and if I wanted melee, I have my barbarian and inquisitor for that.
In the end, it's only as OP or nerffed as the number crunchers see it. Luckily I have a group that goes story an character first, numbers second.
... and then make the observation that his Eidolon also doesn't have a glowing rune despite having no mundane coverage and not being invisible....
You ought to look at the picture again. The eidolon has a glowing rune on its head. Matches the symbol sewn on the iconic's hat. :p
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
The rune is pretty clearly right there on his hat in the preview art. Was it taken out in the coloured version?That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
In the colored version of the art, it just looks like an adornment on the hat, not glowing or looking magical at all.
|
... and then make the observation that his Eidolon also doesn't have a glowing rune
Uh you mean the one that is clearly on the Eidlon's forehead? Just above the things beak looks like a U with a line through it? Now admittedly the summoner has the same mark on his hat but that seems to be part of the hat and not the actual rune As said it does no seem to be magical or glowing and unless the summoner has one really messed up forehead no where near where it should be Also on further looking you can see the hat seam go through it.
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
If that's what was intended, I have to ask why bother then? Seriously. If all it takes is saying 'I wear a hat', with no other game mechanics, then why bother listing it at all? It's not just fluff, because if it was, there wouldn't be a paragraph of rules stating what doesn't affect it.
Uh you mean the one that is clearly on the Eidlon's forehead? Just above the things beak looks like a U with a line through it?
... and then make the observation that his Eidolon also doesn't have a glowing rune
The immensely tiny white squiggly line that doesn't glow at all and is hardly noticeable unless you zoom way in? Yeah, I didn't notice that, primarily because it doesn't match the description in the rules text. Which was my point.
EDIT: Also note that, technically, it doesn't say that the Summoner's rune can be concealed. The subject of that sentence is the Eidolon's rune.
|
|
That makes the most sense, but it also means that all the people who are blowing it off as 'just wear a hat' are not really thinking through the intent of the thing.Or we read the text, made a reasonable inference that hats are pretty mundane, especially compared to a disguise, and then noted that the summoner iconic is a hat-wearer with no sign of glowing rune despite the fact his eidolon is rearing up behind him?
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
If that's what was intended, I have to ask why bother then? Seriously. If all it takes is saying 'I wear a hat', with no other game mechanics, then why bother listing it at all? It's not just fluff, because if it was, there wouldn't be a paragraph of rules stating what doesn't affect it.
Perhaps because it is mostly fluff but still has some (very minor) affect on how it works in the game world?
|
If that's what was intended, I have to ask why bother then? Seriously. If all it takes is saying 'I wear a hat', with no other game mechanics, then why bother listing it at all? It's not just fluff, because if it was, there wouldn't be a paragraph of rules stating what doesn't affect it.
Why bother with anything that makes the classes different?
Why bother doing anything imaginative or challenging? Let's just add the numbers up and see what the optimal class is and we'll all play that.
If that's what was intended, I have to ask why bother then? Seriously. If all it takes is saying 'I wear a hat', with no other game mechanics, then why bother listing it at all? It's not just fluff, because if it was, there wouldn't be a paragraph of rules stating what doesn't affect it.
Why bother with anything that makes the classes different?
Why bother doing anything imaginative or challenging? Let's just add the numbers up and see what the optimal class is and we'll all play that.
That was not the point, and you know it. My point was, and you are ignoring it, that if it's fluff, that's fine, then it doesn't need rules, yet it has specific rules clearly stated. That means it's not just fluff, it's crunch.
|
|
If that's what was intended, I have to ask why bother then? Seriously. If all it takes is saying 'I wear a hat', with no other game mechanics, then why bother listing it at all? It's not just fluff, because if it was, there wouldn't be a paragraph of rules stating what doesn't affect it.
Why bother with anything that makes the classes different?
Why bother doing anything imaginative or challenging? Let's just add the numbers up and see what the optimal class is and we'll all play that.
People who disagree with you are unimaginative and lazy powergamers. Check.
I don't understand the neon flashing sign on the summoner and the edilon.
How does an animal know what the summoner is and that this creature that's hitting it will go away if he kills the summoner?
As for intelligent foes, I would think a knowledge arcane check would be needed, else the average person would not know the difference between a wizard that summons something and a summoner, and if they don't see the edilon summoned, how will they know it was summoned, and not a pet?
If you subscribe to the giant flashing neon sign, then I'll also take the AoO to from any spell caster to take his spell component pouch and render the lvl20 wizard useless. Steal the clerics holy symbol......
I'm pretty sure most bandits couldn't tell you the difference between a summoner, wizard, or sorcerer. And how often do you guys fight a bad guy with sleep? Sounds similar to the complaint about cavalier and being surrounded by rogues.
It actually makes sense to destroy holy symbols and spell component pouches. Most DM's just dont do for purposes of fun.
The ability of people to tell what a class is depends on how common the pc classes are in the DM's world/opinion. According to most novels and adventurers they are fairly common.|
|
People who disagree with you are unimaginative and lazy powergamers. Check.
I didn't say 'lazy'!
Oh, but seriously, I just don't see why people think the Summoner is unplayable now; and it seems to me people are latching onto anything to criticize at this point.
I have a very casual player in my group who plays a Summoner and I've been sprucing up his character a bit. It looks very playable and fun to me. With proper strategy he could give my Druid a run for his money. I have no doubt his serpentine Eidolon would tear my wolf apart. (Yes, I know the wolf isn't the optimal companion choice.)
But, yes, overall, threads like these is where the spirit and imagination of the game go to die.
I like how most of the people saying that Summoners need to be improved are giving actual data and real play experiences -- positive input, in other words -- and all the people saying Summoners are OP are only throwing around insults, ad hominem attacks, and strawmen."Actual data" being any data that happens to agree with yours? Considering flat out ignore or belittle anyone who talks about experience with the class that disagrees with your conclusions. Your 'answer' to anyone who says the class is working fine in their game is 'you are doing it wrong'.
Please read the thread before throwing around accusations and insults. The only people throwing around "you're doing it wrong" on this thread are the ones saying Summoners are fine or overpowered. Furthermore, you are the only one on that side in this entire thread who has admitted to even seeing a Summoner in a real game, and the original poster and his supporters were using trumped-up obviously bad Fighter stats to base their claims around (the fighter with the "average at 10th level" 18 strength and the "no Fighters will ever do this much damage without being cheesy" supporter).
You don't like me. Fine. I don't give a rat's behind. Don't make up shit and claim it's true, though.
|
|
I like how most of the people saying that Summoners need to be improved are giving actual data and real play experiences -- positive input, in other words -- and all the people saying Summoners are OP are only throwing around insults, ad hominem attacks, and strawmen."Actual data" being any data that happens to agree with yours? Considering flat out ignore or belittle anyone who talks about experience with the class that disagrees with your conclusions. Your 'answer' to anyone who says the class is working fine in their game is 'you are doing it wrong'.Please read the thread before throwing around accusations and insults. The only people throwing around "you're doing it wrong" on this thread are the ones saying Summoners are fine or overpowered. Furthermore, you are the only one on that side in this entire thread who has admitted to even seeing a Summoner in a real game, and the original poster and his supporters were using trumped-up obviously bad Fighter stats to base their claims around (the fighter with the "average at 10th level" 18 strength and the "no Fighters will ever do this much damage without being cheesy" supporter).
You don't like me. Fine. I don't give a rat's behind. Don't make up s%%# and claim it's true, though.
Actually Seeker has said he has seen 4 in real games And I've seen 2
Sorry, I don't even count Seeker because he's blatantly trolling in this thread. He's been even worse about it than the guy who admitted he was just trolling.
I didn't see your post describing your experience, so I do apologize for that.
So I do not count as I do not agree with you, sounds about right for what you count as "data"
I think i'll rule disguise check needed to cover the ruine in my game, it seems more than a fluff piece but I could be wrong. Didn't even think of disguise originally.
If I target the summoner to kill the edilon, i'll make sure to have enemieas target the other players spell components and holy symbols.
I'm sure there are traits and feats to help prevent being put to sleep (if you choose not to play an elf) Just don't have my book infront of me ATM, but that seems a reasonable way to go if your really concerned with magical sleep.
Doing a one shot, one night game in a week, but the GM doesn't have the APG yet and is not allwoing it for this session, so i'm playing a druid for the 1st time, had to scratch my summoner till another time. Was thinking a halfling summoner who playe son the fact that people think he's a kid 1/2 the time and he uses stealth, disguise and spells to stay hidden and away from the action, while directing his "friend" in battle and tossing out spells.
edit: when i do play that character he'll ahve his own personal rune that will appear on his bandana. Kind of like that look, some wavy hair partly covering it.
Sorry, I don't even count Seeker because he's blatantly trolling in this thread. He's been even worse about it than the guy who admitted he was just trolling.
I didn't see your post describing your experience, so I do apologize for that.
What I find funny (and a little disturbing) is the two of us actually agree pretty much 100% on the summoner. I don't think that's ever happened before. :) I hope this isn't one of the signs of the apocalypse. :)
And another thing I was not trolling, I was posting an observation on those who are crying and whining about the changes.
You guys do not give a damned about any facts or data that disagrees with you, so why should I post lengthy detailed data that you guys will just ignore?
You simply do not give a damned about the whole or other folks data if it does not back up your outrage.
Doing a one shot, one night game in a week, but the GM doesn't have the APG yet and is not allwoing it for this session, so i'm playing a druid for the 1st time, had to scratch my summoner till another time. Was thinking a halfling summoner who playe son the fact that people think he's a kid 1/2 the time and he uses stealth, disguise and spells to stay hidden and away from the action, while directing his "friend" in battle and tossing out spells.
I like that concept.
So I do not count as I do not agree with you, sounds about right for what you count as "data"
No, you don't count because your first post was this:
yawn,Gorbacz dude let it go. Its like six people who want their munchkin wondertoy back. It's not a huge deal. The fact they think druid is an exceptionable measure of power lets ya know they would never be happy with a balanced class anyhow.
You came into the thread with no attempt whatsoever to discuss things. Your only desire was to sling mud and shit all over the thread and the people who you disagreed with. Which is especially amusing (and shows your trollitude) because it's exactly what you're whining and b+$*+ing that we're doing to you.
I have always tried to discuss things with you when you actually make an attempt at discussing things. You insult me for that, too, but whatever, I do try. You made not even a vague attempt at it here, though, so no, I don't give a damn what you're saying in this thread.
|
What I find funny (and a little disturbing) is the two of us actually agree pretty much 100% on the summoner. I don't think that's ever happened before. :) I hope this isn't one of the signs of the apocalypse . :)Sorry, I don't even count Seeker because he's blatantly trolling in this thread. He's been even worse about it than the guy who admitted he was just trolling.
I didn't see your post describing your experience, so I do apologize for that.
Hmmm I think I read about this earlier today.
Which sucks for me because I have been reading the thread all day and now I can't feel my legs...
|
Please read the thread before throwing around accusations and insults. The only people throwing around "you're doing it wrong" on this thread are the ones saying Summoners are fine or overpowered. Furthermore, you are the only one on that side in this entire thread who has admitted to even seeing a Summoner in a real game, and the original poster and his supporters were using trumped-up obviously bad Fighter stats to base their claims around (the fighter with the "average at 10th level" 18 strength and the "no Fighters will ever do this much damage without being cheesy" supporter).
You don't like me. Fine. I don't give a rat's behind. Don't make up s@%! and claim it's true, though.
I read the thread. What I saw was the original poster putting up some thoughts and then someone being a confrontational and completely uncommunicative in the very first reply. Pretty much ensuring the thread would go degrade into the inevitable snippy flame war you seem to enjoy.
You don't see any interesting counter arguments because most people don't like to engage in this sort of BS.
I deleted that post before I saw your reply because I was intending to stay out of this and I'm going to follow through with it.
Enjoy your little flame war Zurai.
What I find funny (and a little disturbing) is the two of us actually agree pretty much 100% on the summoner. I don't think that's ever happened before. :) I hope this isn't one of the signs of the apocalypse. :)Sorry, I don't even count Seeker because he's blatantly trolling in this thread. He's been even worse about it than the guy who admitted he was just trolling.
I didn't see your post describing your experience, so I do apologize for that.
Nah, I'm sure it isn't. You and I agree more often than seeker and I do, and he and I agreed multiple times in a single thread the other day.
|
|
So I do not count as I do not agree with you, sounds about right for what you count as "data"Oh no sir, you don't count because your first reply was hostile for no reason whatsoever.
Coming from the guy that uses an argument that
..most people? Can you quantify that for me? Most people smoke cigarettes. Most people are rapists. Most people are dolphins. Cigarette-smoking dolphin rapists.
and
People who disagree with you are unimaginative and lazy powergamers. Check.
Frankly has no right of accusing anyone else of being a troll or hostile
|
|
And another thing I was not trolling, I was posting an observation on those who are crying and whining about the changes.
You guys do not give a damned about any facts or data that disagrees with you, so why should I post lengthy detailed data that you guys will just ignore?
You simply do not give a damned about the whole or other folks data if it does not back up your outrage.
Post your data. Please. You must have spools of it! Or, yah know, you could just look at the DPR Olympics thread, where it's already been proven that the Eidolons are pretty much on par with a Druid's animal companion, as long as you don't go the ultra-cheesy 15 arm destruction god route, which is being nerfed shortly anyways.
eh if you guys found that overly hostile ya need to stop posting online.
I do not count as I do not agree with your outrage over minor changes I feel needed done.I do not count as my data is not limited to one player or one group.
I simply do not count as my data and play data simply does not back up a damned thing you are saying.
I posted after watching Gorbacz try and try to deal with your outrage in a reasonable manor and making no ground as simply you want an overpowered class with no semblance of game balance for the most part.
It's always you same 4 or 5 posters with the same issues that really are not issues.
So no I simply do not count as it disagrees with you an no other reason
|
|
So I do not count as I do not agree with you, sounds about right for what you count as "data"Oh no sir, you don't count because your first reply was hostile for no reason whatsoever.Coming from the guy that uses an argument that
Most people are rapistsand
People who disagree with you are unimaginative and lazy powergamers. Check.Frankly has no right of accusing anyone else of being a troll or hostile
I'm pretty sure that first qoute ended in "Most people are cigarette-smoking rapist dolphins" and the last qoute was a paraphrase of what the original poster said.
Hey, nice taking qoutes out of context, Fox News!
|
|
Post your data. Please. You must have spools of it! Or, yah know, you could just look at the DPR Olympics thread, where it's already been proven that the Eidolons are pretty much on par with a Druid's animal companion, as long as you don't go the ultra-cheesy 15 arm destruction god route, which is being nerfed shortly anyways.
Is it? I missed something on that one can anyone point where this was mentioned?
So I do not count as I do not agree with you, sounds about right for what you count as "data"Oh no sir, you don't count because your first reply was hostile for no reason whatsoever.Coming from the guy that uses an argument that
Most people are rapists
Nice job taking that completely out of context to show pretty much the exact opposite of what he actually and clearly meant.
I like that concept.
Doing a one shot, one night game in a week, but the GM doesn't have the APG yet and is not allwoing it for this session, so i'm playing a druid for the 1st time, had to scratch my summoner till another time. Was thinking a halfling summoner who playe son the fact that people think he's a kid 1/2 the time and he uses stealth, disguise and spells to stay hidden and away from the action, while directing his "friend" in battle and tossing out spells.
The "kid" grew up wishing to someday have the power to escape from his masters, explore far off lands, and perhaps help bring about a better life for his kind. he spent every minute he could spying on his master, wathcing him summon creatures form the abyss, dreaming of what could be if only he had a small fraction of that power. Finally, when the master was away, he snuck inot one of the labs and stole an arcane text that discussed summoning. He escaped the tower that night and hasn't stoped running. His first attempt at summoning did not go as planned....
