I have a Player that wants to be a "necromancer" with the death and glory domains. He wants to control the dead but for his own use. Kinda like fighting fire with fire. Should I as the GM allow this? Also he wants to wield a Holy and Unholy sword. Also would casting control undead or something like the that with an evil spell descriptor make him evil? Where would his alignment end? and How also wants to heal and channel positive energy so how would that work with creating and controlling undead? Thanks for any and all help. -MRblahface
With the standard rules, it's quite odd turn undead and raise them with the same character.
Nevertheless, since the concept is cool, why don't you just homebrew a feat or a Prestige Class that allows it?
Make him a follower of a lost death deity that wants his follower kill undead, but allow to raise deads TEMPORARILY if it helps, or if serves as a retribution versus a particularly unjust or blasphemous enemy.
Create a feat that allows what you want, call it "Follower of [Insert Deity Name] and you are done.
Convert the Summon Undead spells to Pathfinder and they can be servants to the god of death that the cleric summons for aid.
Do have Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds? You might direct him to the Deathless subtype and the Deathless Domain.
Death and Glory, hm? The first things that come to mind are the Spartans, or the Norse and their Valkyries.. I believe "a glorious death" was even quoted in "300".
I wouldn't see anything wrong with him summoning undead for battles, but before you let him do it, get his take on what the idea of this god he serves is. That may give you some clues. As for the sword, it's a nice idea, but I don't believe those two enchantments could exist in the same weapon. I'd overrule that if that actually is the case, and have him carry two swords. Or a double bladed sword.
Should you let him run with that, give characteristics to his undead. If they're normally inclined to consume the fallen, say they don't. Say the regiment up instead, or assume formations upon being summoned.
I recall there being a "Summon Undead" spell, but can't remember where it might be in the era of 3.5.. Probably Libris Mortis. I like his idea, especially if he is a militant cleric.
When in doubt, look to the closest real-world equivalent, slap a healthy layer of "fantasy" atop it, and run with it. As long as fun is had, worry not about the balance.
What Dreaming Psion said too.. There's always the PF Conversion guide if you want to get it closer.
Just gives them a second chance to die a "Glorious Death". =3
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I have a Player that wants to be a "necromancer" with the death and glory domains. He wants to control the dead but for his own use. Kinda like fighting fire with fire. Should I as the GM allow this? Also he wants to wield a Holy and Unholy sword. Also would casting control undead or something like the that with an evil spell descriptor make him evil? Where would his alignment end? and How also wants to heal and channel positive energy so how would that work with creating and controlling undead? Thanks for any and all help. -MRblahface
I think that per RAW 99% of this concept would not work.
HOWEVER that does not mean it SHOULD not work. :) I like most of the ideas.
This is how I would handle it...
Necromancer with Death and Glory domains sound great. I'd create a deity or modify a deity to fit this role. However, there would be limits to "using" undead. FIghting fire with fire is fine. But the wanton raising of undead would quickly lead to the deity becoming displeased. I would be fine with raising enemies that are fallen in battle, or something similar. Raiding the local cemetery for henchmen would be frowned upon. Also, I think the deity would require some sort of ritual of thanks and salvation over the copses of the now dead undead that the white necromancer raised. Sort of showing respect and apologizing for profaning their corpses.
Wielding Holy sword AND Unholy sword. That I would not allow. Seems munchkin to me. I think as GM I would rule the PC rather neutral and not benefit from either of these. The concept, while not "evil" is not "good" either. Even if he is actively fighting evil with his undead, he has chosen a "dark" tool in the battle.
Normally, casting any spell with the evil descriptor is an evil act. In THIS case, I would allow it as a GM, but have the deity require regular uses of Atonement as well. This more a flavor issue and encourages roleplaying. From a strictly mechanics point of view I would hand wave it and move on, choosing to selectively ignore this issue.
The channeling issue is a tricky one. I would allow him to channel positive energy if that is his wish (as I consider this concept rather neutral and therefore gets to choose). The deity would lean toward positive I think, so I would encourage positive energy. I would treat channeling by the rules in all respects though. If he channels he runs the risk of damaging his undead "allies." He can use Selective Channeling to mitigate the issue. This is an issue where I would just say that the concept is a two edged sword. It has merit and I would be willing to work with the concept, but there are repercussions that would need to be accepted.
Overall I think of the concept as similar to the Necroscope series by Brian Lumley. Definitely dark and not "good" but by no means "evil" either.
I'm kind of getting an "Aragorn calling the Hill Folk" vibe here, which would be cool. I think that the upthread suggestion of converting the older Summon Undead spells would be the best way. Stick to non-sentient undead, or at least less willful undead (ie, no summoning Vampires), but calling them as "Fallen warriors return to claim the glory of your former lives" kind of thing. Once they have regained some honor, they go back to hades/valhalla/burbank. So spam the map with skeles/ ghosts/ zombies, would be fine, ghouls, vamps, etc not so much.
holy+ Unholy would only work if the character were completely neutral, due to teh level hits for no good/evil wielders. Then, once you cast a create undead spell, you'd be subject to one of them. Plus, that's a minimum +5 sword. Ohhh, QUEST ITEM!!! The Mythical Sword of Balance, meant to keep the warring sides in line.
The one thing that sticks out to me though is the "for his own use" statement in the OP. IF he is allowing the shamed and unquiet to find redemption and seek a peaceful afterlife, I'd be fine with it. If I thought the player was just trying to get around a "no evil characters" DM rule, or that he would end up raising whole villages to toil in the mines, I'd say no.
One thing that might be sort of interesting is to take a bit of a Warhammer 40k-ish Radical Inquisitor-y angle on the character. This way he is dealing with forces that he should otherwise be leaving alone and it gives some depth to the character other than 'good necromancer.' In terms of his deity I would put a bit of a spin on good 'ol Pharasma along the lines of the 3.5 version of Kelemvor "Lord of the Dead and Judge of the Damned" from the Forgotten Realms (not sure if he even exists in the 4.0 shake on things...).
He could be part of a sect of Pharastic clerics that see it as something of their job to judge the dead rather than just tend to cemeteries (as is the more common bent). Your player's character could then go a bit over the line and see it as his job to, as others have said above, give those that would otherwise be damned a second shot to redeem themselves. His brothers and sisters in the clergy would definitely get a bit nervous about his personal crusade but he wouldn't be violating (initially...bwhahahah evil GM laugh) any of their tennets.
It gives you the option as a GM to go ahead and let him raise hosts of undead until he finds that he is engaging in a subtle self-damning conversion to the worship of Urgathoa (yet more bwhahahahh evil GM laughter).
As far as the Unholy/Holy sword goes you'd almost have to have it be a major artifact due to the game mechanics bonanza that type of item could create. Don't get me wrong I'm not just turning my nose up at the concept. Far from it. It makes all sorts of Manawar-esque music erupt in my head. Along those lines you should just kick the doors off and ramp that item's mojo through the roof. Perhaps there is some scrap of ancient lore that the cleric has heard of about a weapon of apocolyptic might that he could weild in his own personal hubris driven goal of judging every mortal and/or enemy he comes accross (to help out Pharasma of course).
For immediate out of the starting gate payout to his concept he has going I would suggest that he make ample use of Bless AND Bane to really get after his "playing both sides against the middle" concept. From those two spells you can add some cool descriptions of the effects to make his group-mates wonder just who the heck they are traveling with...
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I think i may have done something similar.
In pathfinder society organized play, i have a mystic theurgs. My character is a 3rd level cleric of Pharasma and a 3rd level necromancer. The character is now 10 level, so he is 3/3/4
He has the Healing and Repose domains.
From his three levels of cleric, He has positive channel energy.
From his three levels of Wizard (Necromancer) he has the Command undead feat.
So he can either turn or command undead (3 hd of undead) as he wishes.
I often use spells such as command undead, to effectively turn one of the undead on one of the other undead. My character often phrases things in terms of a request, " would you be willing to help us, you will have a chance to work against he who put you in your condition. afterwards, we will grant you the rest you desire"
My idea for the character is i think a simple one. In order to fully understand life (healing domain) one must also understand death ( necromancy) . I am thinking of the positive energy and negative energy as a ying and yang sort of thing.
There is a line my character does not cross. He does not animate the dead. Such would be an anathema to him. Life and death are but parts to the natural cycle of life, but the animation of the dead is a violation of that cycle. Also with undeath spirits are not moving on to the halls of Pharasma as they should so they can finally rest.
you of course are free to interpet things as you wish. this is how i have interped things to make a "white necromancer"
I am leery of picking domains before you have a deity. i think things work better when you have sent the cosmos/ deiteies/ domains up first. Then the player gets to pick the deity and domains next.
WOW! Thank you every one. I like some of the Ideas. First I was going to use no to vague deities. Also He basically from what he has said to me is this. He wants to channel positive energy and use the Holy sword against the undead in case they get out of hand. He wants to raise them and fight with them. I have no Idea what he was thinking on using the unholy sword for. The holy and Unholy swords were 2 swords that he wanted to wield. (can a neutral character wield holy and unholy swords? Why would you need a unholy sword anyway?) As I know I have a LG monk of the 4 winds and a ?? storm born Sorcerer so I really think they might have some problems with him (evil GM snicker). His Whole aim I think is to be "like" the necromancer in Diablo 2. But anyway He wants to have some or all of his undead running all over the place then dispatching them when he is done.
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WOW! Thank you every one. I like some of the Ideas. First I was going to use no to vague deities. Also He basically from what he has said to me is this. He wants to channel positive energy and use the Holy sword against the undead in case they get out of hand. He wants to raise them and fight with them. I have no Idea what he was thinking on using the unholy sword for. The holy and Unholy swords were 2 swords that he wanted to wield. (can a neutral character wield holy and unholy swords? Why would you need a unholy sword anyway?) As I know I have a LG monk of the 4 winds and a ?? storm born Sorcerer so I really think they might have some problems with him (evil GM snicker). His Whole aim I think is to be "like" the necromancer in Diablo 2. But anyway He wants to have some or all of his undead running all over the place then dispatching them when he is done.
I do think you just raised probably the most serious concern of all to the concept. How will the other players react to the character? If it creates tension or unwanted distractions I think implementing this character would be a bad idea.
I can see wielding the Holy Sword for the stated purposes, but still question the Unholy Sword. I am thinking a Bane Sword would be better suited to the task. It sidesteps the alignment requirements to Holy/Unholy weapons. I think that is the one area as a GM I would not budge on.
And yeah the Diablo 2 Necromancer is freaking awesome. I do wish I could do THAT in a game!
Also necromancers are not summoners, a necromancer wouldnt be able to say... "Hey.... I need some undead.... I know! ill cast a spell! POOF!", think itd be more along the lines of... "Hey... using the freshly slain corpses of my enemies, i can raise an army.... (insert zombie wails)"
It's all in how you define the spell Summon Undead as working.
It can either go '*poof* here are some undead', or 'RISE MY SERVANTS! for 1 round per level'.
Another issue has come up. there is no Glory/Death God (As of now I am using PF gods). I don't want to create one. So He has no god so what about a holy symbol? How would that work? Please help!
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Another issue has come up. there is no Glory/Death God (As of now I am using PF gods). I don't want to create one. So He has no god so what about a holy symbol? How would that work? Please help!
IMO, regardless of God/Domain preference, a cleric should have a "Divine Focus" of some sort (as required in many of the cleric's spells). Make it some other kind of focus, totem, or symbolic conduit through which his connection to the divine flows.
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In PFS, I am playing a Human Oracle of Bones....very "white necromancer"y in my opinion. Granted at lvl 1, its pretty rough, but still surprisingly effective. By the time you could cast lvl 3 spells, animate dead and the channel to control undead revelation make plenty of just neat ideas.
I am loving this character, personally.
Pharasma's faith has a lot of white necromancers, but only those that study other necromancy and do not raise dead.
Control undead is frowned upon but acceptable if those undead are immediately destroyed or too powerful to otherwise destroy. Pharasma would most likely vehemently oppose the creation of new dead.
The closest you'll find to a warlike deity that explicitly endorses the creation of undead would be Urgathoa.
It's a cool concept, so go with it.
For the holy/unholy... I'd tell him to either get a quarterstaff and put Good Bane on one end, and Evil Bane on the other end.
As far as undead, it all depends on how he handles it. I'd do up a slightly different undead template. Instead of 'Skeleton', I'd use the skeleton stats, but instead call it 'Fallen Warrior'. Basically, a mummified warrior raises up, returned by his faith to fight at his side. Limit him to only being able to create undead on ancient battlefields where much glory and honor was won.
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In PFS, I am playing a Human Oracle of Bones....very "white necromancer"y in my opinion. Granted at lvl 1, its pretty rough, but still surprisingly effective. By the time you could cast lvl 3 spells, animate dead and the channel to control undead revelation make plenty of just neat ideas.
I am loving this character, personally.
I'll admit, his character is REALLY useful against the undead in the matter of controlling and manipulating them. Not sure how he'll do against other threats though...
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It's a cool concept, so go with it.
For the holy/unholy... I'd tell him to either get a quarterstaff and put Good Bane on one end, and Evil Bane on the other end.
As far as undead, it all depends on how he handles it. I'd do up a slightly different undead template. Instead of 'Skeleton', I'd use the skeleton stats, but instead call it 'Fallen Warrior'. Basically, a mummified warrior raises up, returned by his faith to fight at his side. Limit him to only being able to create undead on ancient battlefields where much glory and honor was won.
Good idea, this is somewhat similar to some of the necromances in the old campaign called Scarred Lands (Hollowfaust). The GM allow one player to play a cleric of a LN deity of the dead has a necromancer that could cast aminated undead for skeletons and zombies, but rebuke not control the undead. The player was LN and told the rest of the that the undead he raised were the empty remains of the living that the their souls have gone to the after live realm. This player worded how his character using his abilites that the paladin (but watch him)allow him to raise skeletons(zombies were too gross for her) to help the party. The player fought fire with fire by using his undead minions to fight other undead. The player specialized in hunting down free willed undead. The epic battle of the campaign was to destory a cult of a cleric mummy lord to the demon prince of Orcus. Also I think the 2nd issue of Wayfinder has an article about 2 deities that has duel channel energy.
ALL AWESOME. Thank you. Ok He just wants to raise the dead then use the positive and Holy "Whatever" to put them In there final resting place.I think every one has answered my questions. But what about say a L/G Kingdom has a law against necromancy of any kind. IF he were to raise dead would he in fact breaking the law? Thanks again! -MRblah
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ALL AWESOME. Thank you. Ok He just wants to raise the dead then use the positive and Holy "Whatever" to put them In there final resting place.I think every one has answered my questions. But what about say a L/G Kingdom has a law against necromancy of any kind. IF he were to raise dead would he in fact breaking the law? Thanks again! -MRblah
It depend on how the law is written. The player can put hooded robes over his undead, would aminate skeletons, least likely to have the rotting flesh smell, too hide his minions. The player would have to raise the undead in a concealed area. If the law is written in a way that a person can not kill innocent people and then rise them as undead, controling or summon free will undead the player might get by. If the law is straight up no necromancy he or she is going to have problems and will be breaking the law. The other players might not want to deal with this player in fear out be cast as parnters of an outlaw. Does the kingdom has worshippers of a neutral deity of the dead. I feel the Eyphtians clerics of the dead were from true neutral to law netrual and view death as part of live. Also in the Forgotten Realm campaign, Kelemvar clerics try to comfort the folks who were dying and their relatives. Telling them it was a cycle of life. These cleric also hunted the undead (mostly free willed). Also the player might be interest in using the Death and Repose (In Forgotten Realm book) domains, these 2 might balance out both parts of life and death. The player can be an outsider of the dressed differently from the rest of the people in the kingdom, he or she could dress like a shaman or Eyphtian style. Plus if the player does not follow a deity he or she could use a dark green crystal, a polished sphereical semi precious stone called malachite, or a polished sphereical black and white stone (the cycle of life) for the divine foci.
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ALL AWESOME. Thank you. Ok He just wants to raise the dead then use the positive and Holy "Whatever" to put them In there final resting place.I think every one has answered my questions. But what about say a L/G Kingdom has a law against necromancy of any kind. IF he were to raise dead would he in fact breaking the law? Thanks again! -MRblah
Also have the the player role play the character, telling the other character why his or her character uses undead minions (as I mention above with the player in Scarred Lands). The player could substitue all clerical spells that deal acid, cold, fire, lighting, thunder damage into negative energy and take the metamagic feat energy substitution for postive energy. For example make flame strike into necronic strike were an eerie green glow of negative energy strike the area (postive energy: radiant orange light). The player could also dress in gray or black and white clothing (armor). Unique weapons for death are the one handed: khopesh (1d8X2 19-20), kopis (1d6X2 18-20), light flail, heavy flail, scimitar, great scimitar (1d10X2 18-20), great kopis (1D10X218-20), great khopesh (2d6X2 19-20), and kukri.
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I've always liked the idea of a good necromancer going back to the old root of the word. They work with the dead.
A good necromancer could find goodly restless spirits who have unfinished business to take care of or something else holding them from their true rest. They'll swear loyalty to the necromancer and aid him, serving as the animating force of any undead(deathless variant?) he needs. The necromancer in turn is sworn to help those spirits gain closure and move on to their true rest. This necromancer is all about respecting and honoring the dead, helping them as they help him.
It could also apply with repentant evil spirits who need to do some penance before moving on, kind of like DC's Ragman.