Basically just that. What do people think about, for a PF conversion of 3.5 psionics, making mental combat separate from powers again OR adding a separate subsystem of mental combat using the template of CMB/CMD? CMB=Manifester Level+Int modifier (or manifesting stat) and CMD=10+Manifester Level+Wis and Cha.
Basically just that. What do people think about, for a PF conversion of 3.5 psionics, making mental combat separate from powers again OR adding a separate subsystem of mental combat using the template of CMB/CMD? CMB=Manifester Level+Int modifier (or manifesting stat) and CMD=10+Manifester Level+Wis and Cha.
That doesn't strike me as a good idea, being that if it is based on Manifester levels, it leaves non-psionic creatures/characters without any defense against it, which was always one of the main complaints I heard against psionics in 2nd edition.
Basically just that. What do people think about, for a PF conversion of 3.5 psionics, making mental combat separate from powers again OR adding a separate subsystem of mental combat using the template of CMB/CMD? CMB=Manifester Level+Int modifier (or manifesting stat) and CMD=10+Manifester Level+Wis and Cha.That doesn't strike me as a good idea, being that if it is based on Manifester levels, it leaves non-psionic creatures/characters without any defense against it, which was always one of the main complaints I heard against psionics in 2nd edition.
Well to amend, either like in 3.0 non-psionic creatures get a huge boost to their saves (or CMD) against such an attack, or add half their level in place of ML.
Bad idea - as stated, it either becomes a matter of non-psionic creatures being immune, or them being over-vulnerable.
Incorporating the attacks and defences as powers in the same way that magical attacks and defences are spells works well for both, and adds to psionics/magic transparency. It means normal saves and other mechanisms can be used and you don't have to add yet another mechanic to the system.
Bad idea - as stated, it either becomes a matter of non-psionic creatures being immune, or them being over-vulnerable.
Incorporating the attacks and defences as powers in the same way that magical attacks and defences are spells works well for both, and adds to psionics/magic transparency. It means normal saves and other mechanisms can be used and you don't have to add yet another mechanic to the system.
Well part of the idea was NOT having to add another system; CMB/CMD is already there. The ONLY thing I disliked about the change from 3.0 to 3.5 psionics was making attack/defense modes powers.
Well part of the idea was NOT having to add another system; CMB/CMD is already there. The ONLY thing I disliked about the change from 3.0 to 3.5 psionics was making attack/defense modes powers.Bad idea - as stated, it either becomes a matter of non-psionic creatures being immune, or them being over-vulnerable.
Incorporating the attacks and defences as powers in the same way that magical attacks and defences are spells works well for both, and adds to psionics/magic transparency. It means normal saves and other mechanisms can be used and you don't have to add yet another mechanic to the system.
I see your point, but that was what I LIKED about 3.5 psionics!
I see your point, but that was what I LIKED about 3.5 psionics!Well part of the idea was NOT having to add another system; CMB/CMD is already there. The ONLY thing I disliked about the change from 3.0 to 3.5 psionics was making attack/defense modes powers.Bad idea - as stated, it either becomes a matter of non-psionic creatures being immune, or them being over-vulnerable.
Incorporating the attacks and defences as powers in the same way that magical attacks and defences are spells works well for both, and adds to psionics/magic transparency. It means normal saves and other mechanisms can be used and you don't have to add yet another mechanic to the system.
Agreed.
Back then, they gave Psionic attack modes at will to psionic monster.Heck, Brain Moles didn't even have flavor reason why they attack or they do.
So the worst fear of a psychic Warrrior was being chased by Brain moles.
Sure, you can put up a defense 2-4 times easily, but since each time you did you wasted PP: you will run out before infinity does (monsters have infinite).
And if you failed to put up a defense? You got a penalty.
Heck, you only made even with non-psionics.
Exception was Mind Blast (better vs non-psionic).
If you made the system:
Psionic attack: 10 + Manifester/BAB (whichever is higher) + Int/Wis/Cha (whichever is higher)
But the maneuvers had a bonus to attack/penalty (based on psionic/not): it might if the moves aren't too strong.
But I perfer powers.
Although, it was cool Mind Blasting in 3.0 (costing 7 or 9 PP each time). I did it only because it was effective.
Plus, we fought few Psionioc monsters so I wasn't wasting PP every round defending myself.
I like the idea. I really liked the style of the 2nd ed psionics system. I know it was horribly broken against non-psionicists, but I like the way it worked. I never really liked how they translated psionics to a vancian system in 3rd ed.
Bringing back the attack/defense modes would be fun, but I would make a few changes.
1. Give or Create a defense mode for non-psionicists. This would put a non-psi on the same playing field.
2. Make defense modes free to maintain.
I never really liked how they translated psionics to a vancian system in 3rd ed.Um, psionics have never been Vancian, ever, in any edition of the game.
A Vancian system is one that uses spell slots per level per day to determine how often you are able to cast your spells. Psionics have always used power points to determine how often you are able to 'cast' your 'spells.'
9 Levels of psionic spells er I mean powers.
Points cost = 2 x spell level + 1The 3rd ed psionic system is a Vancian system with a channeling conversion applied to it.
9 Levels of psionic spells er I mean powers.
Points cost = 2 x spell level + 1The 3rd ed psionic system is a Vancian system with a channeling conversion applied to it.
Having 9 levels has no bearing on whether or not a system is Vancian.
Granted, I don't mind if you object to having powers divided into 9 levels. That's a perfectly valid opinion.
Just realize that having 9 levels has no relationship to Vancian casting, whatsoever. You could have a Vancian system with 2 levels, 20 levels, or an open-ended 'minimum spell slot' value with no mention of levels whatsoever.
If I take the standard spells, and apply the channeling rules what I end up with is a vancian system with the spells per day converted into spell points. It only plays slightly different from the standard vancian system. I could add a rules to a standard vancian system that let more trade lower level spell slots for higher level ones, and I would end up with the same effect.
3rd ed psionics is a vancian system with channeling rules bolted on the back end.
CMB=Manifester Level+Int modifier (or manifesting stat) and CMD=10+Manifester Level+Wis and Cha.
Replace ML with base Will save? I'd make CMB use Int modifier, and CMD use Int and Wis modifiers.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
If you are using spell points, you aren't using a Vancian system. Strictly speaking, Sorcerers are not 'Vancian' because they do not expend their spells, merely spell slots when they cast. Spell levels have little or nothing to do with it.
However, setting aside the nomenclature I think what you are trying to say Charender is that you find the application of 3.x psionics to much like the application of 3.x magic, which is fair comment.
However, I would note several differences between the two:
1) Powers are more individually versatile than spells, on average.
2) The escalation of power in psionics requires much more expenditure of resources (power points) than magic does.
3) The power point system allows more intuitive management of resources.
Simply placing the powers on a 1-9 scale merely allowed an easier comparison with magic, I think.
Edit: ninja'd by Epic Meepo.
...what I end up with is a vancian system with the spells per day converted into spell points.The Vancian system is the spells per day system. That's what "Vancian system" means.
If you convert spells per day into spell points, by definition, you've just replaced a Vancian system with a non-Vancian one.
Vancian is not just memorization, but the tiered nature i.e. spell levels. It's not strictly vancian, but it's not a completely different animal either. Not the way 2nd edition psionics was.
Whether or not it is vancian in the strictest sense does not matter, his point is that he feels the two systems are to similar. I disagree, but I understand where he's coming from.
When I say something like "i hate the vancian system" I mean the whole kit and kaboodle. I hate spell levels and slots and only a limited amount of energy per day, and its rigidity. Psionics is much better, but personally it doesn't feel particularly fantastic.
Personally I'm anxious to see the new magic system in Ultimate Magic.
