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This post has spoilers, so if your going to play in Curse of the Crimson Throne, don't read on. Seriously. You'll just get depressed and angry.
Anyway, without further ado, here come the spoilers.
However, I get to Crown of Fangs, and it turns out she's been strengthened by having a demon bound to her. Meaning that even when she's weakened by Serithtial and Karavon's taint is removed, she'd still be pretty powerful. Which rather put a crimp in my idea for resolving CotCT, which was as follows.
Capture her alive, and put her on trial. This possibility might be suggested by someone like Sabine, who would (wrongly) think that it's just Karavon making her evil, or by Sensechal Neolandus, who feels that it's important for Kovosa to see Ileosa dealt with in a proper and lawful manner. Further, if the PC's see Karavon as the real threat, she could be valuable as a prime source of information, providing she's convinced to help them. Which might set up some fun Lector style questioning!
I had hoped that this would be one of the possible endings for Crown of Fangs, but no luck, so I'd have to do it myself. Do you guys think it's still possible? I reckon that if I just remove the bit from the contract where a demon is bound to Ileosa, therefore keeping her (mostly) human, it could still be doable.
Any ideas?
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** spoiler omitted **
Creative Director
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The thing about Illeosa is...
...she was always intended to be evil. Just not imaginative and energetic enough to act on her evil desires. The bolt of power and inspiration from Kazavon's fangs doesn't take her over and make her do bad things; it merely gives her the tools she needs to act on her natural and cruel urges. Becoming bound to a devil is only one of those urges, but she's certainly bad enough to want that to happen in the first place. This is a case where the devil bound to her isn't as much a case of making her do things she doesn't want to do, but enabling an already evil person to gain even more power.
Basically... I wanted Illeosa to be the bad guy of the campaign, not Kazavon. Kazavon's the bad guy of what could be a pretty cool sequel to this campaign, but since he's an epic-level threat, he's not a good foe to throw directly at lower level PCs.
ANYway, I think you can still have your trial scene with the queen, especially if the PCs can catch her alive. You can certainly change the "Rise of the Dragon" event so that it activates as soon as the PCs sunder the Crown of Fangs, or as soon as they reduce Ileosa to a certain number of hit points; you don't have to trigger the event at her death if you want her to remain alive for a trial to follow.
And of course, unbinding the devil from her could make for a pretty cool followup adventure anyway...
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It reminds me of an episode of Angel, season 1, where the gang dispossess a kid, only to discover that the kid is more evil then the possessing demon. That sort of thing makes for a great shock value at the end of a campaign, if the PC's are thinking that Karavon, at least through Ileosa, is the true threat. (Ileosa in this case is obviously a huge threat on her own, thanks to Karavon's taint)
My one problem with Ileosa being demon-bound is actually a mechanical one. Namely that I don't have the book from which you got the template, so I've no idea how to play her as just being demon-bound. How powerful should she be minus Karavon's taint? How should she be portrayed in that situation?
Heck! Just came up with a fun idea for a post AP event. Ileosa convinces the PC's that she'll happily help them out with information about Karavon, if they just happen to free her soul from that pesky contract, which Karavon forced her to agree to. Honest..
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Creative Director
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I'm not sure why we're doing spoiler buttons in a thread labeled spoilers... but!
The devil bound to Ileosa's soul really doesn't have any say in what she does. Basically, the template takes several of a specific devil's powers and merges them into the templated creature, and grants that creature bonuses to stats and all that. It's similar to the fiendish or half-fiend template, but rather than having infernal lineage, Ileosa grabbed the erinyes devil and absorbed it. She's still 100% the one in charge; the absorbed devil isn't even conscious in this case and is little more than a battery for Ileosa's power.
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I was thinking that it would be best to use spoiler tags until we have enough posts to fill up one screen.
Reverse possession is an awesome idea, all the time. Make Ileosa the most evil character in all of this, but clever enough (now at least, thanks to Karavon's taint and the possession) to play the 'innocent victim'
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Warning, spoilers below!
Of course that would conflict entirely with her defense in the primary court case. It would probably work best if she actually "gets off the hook" in the first case and the matter is well past being taken back to court under the strict letter of the law.
Just looking at this from the weird angles Planescape drilled into my head.
Spoilers for LOTS of Adventure Paths…
Now, I don’t have #12 yet, so this is all based on ignorance, but what is it with all these arch-nemeses getting demon-bonded just to provide a physical challenge for the PCs? Vhalentru did it. Vanthus did it. And now I hear Ileosa did it? It just feels artificial and “game-y” to finally get to confront your arch-nemeses (in each case for the first time), only to discover that they’re not the same person they were when you learned to hate them.
If it were part of the plot, then yeah, it makes sense, but when a party finally faces off against the beholder who scared the heck out of them at 1st level, or the wicked brother who buried them alive, or the queen who played them for patsies in her rise to power, there’s a certain expectation that it be that person, not some villain who demon-bonded just for the sake of making it a fair fight.
Now be honest. Is the final Ileona throw-down like that? Is there anything in the previous adventures that lets the PCs know she’s binding with a demon? Or is it really “Hurrah, we’ve freed the queen! Wait, what’s this?”
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Well,
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Spoilers for LOTS of Adventure Paths…
** spoiler omitted **
This has been playing out for a while, and hinted at through multiple adventures before this final one.
See, that's what I was thinking. The Big K was obvious and expected an no PC is going to go into a final battle with her NOT expecting it. Again my ignorance plays here but it sounded an awful lot like, once the Big K was separated, she'd whip out this new demonpact and leave my players going "wha-?".
If it's foreshadowed enough in the levels leading up to it, though, I'll probably be okay with it. I'm just carrying some wariness from being really frustrated with how this played out with Vanthus and Orbius.
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I don't think she's whipping out anything new.
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See, that's what I was thinking. The Big K was obvious and expected an no PC is going to go into a final battle with her NOT expecting it. Again my ignorance plays here but it sounded an awful lot like, once the Big K was separated, she'd whip out this new demonpact and leave my players going "wha-?".
SPOILERS!! Questions for James (or other designer)
Kazavon is a great wyrm blue dragon. Does he have any template or class levels (Zon-Kuthon cleric?)? Will We know about him in “Dragons revisited”?
What level has Sorshen? Is She enchanter 20, or is more powerful than Karzoug? Where can I find information about the runelords (especially about Sorshen)? I know about pathfinder #1 and #5, the web enhancement “magic of Thassilon” (also a brief mention to Sorshen in “Guide to Korvosa”) Are there more information? (a few weeks ago there was a thread in which they discussed the relative levels of the runelords ... I think that I’ve lost some source of information)
About Lorthact... exactly what role plays in "Crown of Fangs"?
We are finalizing "Seven Days to the Grave," but my party wants to continue playing after Crown of Fangs. I need much time to write!
Sorry for my poor English :(
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Creative Director
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Kazavon is left relatively vague so that a GM can build him into whatever he wants. Personally, my take is that he's "just" a great wyrm blue dragon, though; and while that might seem dull... remember that still puts him at a very high CR. Easilly high enough to be a world-famous notorious bad guy.
Likewise with Sorshen; we're leaving her levels a mystery for now. She WAS the second most powerful runelord, though, and Karzoug was the 4th most powerful. As a result, I'm pretty sure that Sorshen was at least a 25th level enchanter... possibly even higher level.
And again, for Lorthact we're leaving him an enigma as well. All three of these bad guys are meant to be campaign end bosses for high level campaigns, but since we wanted GMs to be able to pick the one they want and then tailor them to the level they need, we didn't put much info in about them. Of the three, Sorshen is the one most likely to eventually see a stat block, I'd guess... but not anytime soon.
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(a few weeks ago there was a thread in which they discussed the relative levels of the runelords ... I think that I’ve lost some source of information)
I was looking for the same thread the other day and it appears to have disappeared into the ether ... maybe James would repost the pecking order? I'm thinking about re-awakening Alaznist as a follow up to RotRL, and couldn't decide whether to peg her above or below ol' Karzie.
Back to the OP:
The idea of Sabina begging the PCs to take Ileosa alive is one I like.
Kazavon is left relatively vague so that a GM can build him into whatever he wants. Personally, my take is that he's "just" a great wyrm blue dragon, though; and while that might seem dull... remember that still puts him at a very high CR. Easilly high enough to be a world-famous notorious bad guy.
Likewise with Sorshen; we're leaving her levels a mystery for now. She WAS the second most powerful runelord, though, and Karzoug was the 4th most powerful. As a result, I'm pretty sure that Sorshen was at least a 25th level enchanter... possibly even higher level.
And again, for Lorthact we're leaving him an enigma as well. All three of these bad guys are meant to be campaign end bosses for high level campaigns, but since we wanted GMs to be able to pick the one they want and then tailor them to the level they need, we didn't put much info in about them. Of the three, Sorshen is the one most likely to eventually see a stat block, I'd guess... but not anytime soon.
Thank you, James!! I do not mind not having the stats of the npcs, I can make them. But I wanted to know its approximate level, it helps a lot in the integration with the world.
I was looking for the same thread the other day and it appears to have disappeared into the ether ... maybe James would repost the pecking order? I'm thinking about re-awakening Alaznist as a follow up to RotRL, and couldn't decide whether to peg her above or below ol' Karzie.
This is the thread. But I can’t find the other threads mentioned...
I just want to point out that it's deals with devils, not demon-bonds. Important distinction. Ask any Chelaxian.
Well, that's every other AP, and a different type of fiend each time (Gehreleth/Demon/Devil)... Now we just need a daemon-bound BBEG in Legacy of Fire.
Not every other AP:
Runelords had a more or less normal human, and SD will have a run-of-the-mill
As it's an erinyes devil that she's using, I assume it's fine to say that the power is more social, rather then physical or magical.
Erinyes are quite physical. Succubi are more social and magical (with enchantments). Erinyes like to fight. After all, they're based on mythical erinyes, which were the Greek version of furies.