Druid wildshape


Rules Questions


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Where is the best explanation on rules for this? Our party druid is changing into numerous animals gaining movement abilities, multiple attacks, etc. (giant squid, for example)

I'd like to clarify


A druid can wild shape into a small or medium creature of the Animal type, and gains the abilities listed under the appropriate "Beast Shape" spell if the creature actually has those abilities. If the creature has natural attacks, the Druid gains those attacks. As the Druid gains levels, he gains more sizes and more creature types to choose from, as well as the ability to wild shape multiple times in a day.

I suppose the section for Polymorph subtype spells has the most in-depth explanation:


Transmutation
Transmutation spells change the properties of some creature, thing, or condition.

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Liberty's Edge

The Beastshape spells specifically define what abilities the druid gets. If the ability isn't listed, he doesn't get it. An example is Powerful Charge. This is not listed on any of the Beastshape spells so you will never get it.

Beastshape 1/level 4-5 druid:
Beast Shape I

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30 feet, fly 30 feet (average maneuverability), swim 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, and scent.

Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.


Beastshape 2/Druid 6-7:
Beast Shape II

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 4

This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.

Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.


Beastshape 3/Druid 8+:
Beast Shape III

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5

This spell functions as beast shape II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.

Diminutive animal: If the form you take is that of a Diminutive animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Huge animal: If the form you take is that of a Huge animal, you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Small magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Small magical beast, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +2 natural armor bonus.

Medium magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Medium magical beast, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Elementals will gain the powers listed for the appropriate elemental body spell druid 6= Elemental body 1(small), 8= Elemental body 2(medium),10= Elemental body 3(large),12= Elemental body 4(huge). The plant shapes are not all that useful.

** I realize some of this is duplicated now...oops!

Dark Archive

I see that it states that if the polymorph spell causes you to change size apply the size modifiers as appropriate, but then it almost contradicts itself in the same sentence as you do not adjust your ability scores for this size difference. I thought the +1 to attack and -1 to ac was due to a +2 str and -2 dex modifier... Am i missing a table somewhere in the book for this? My associate showed me a table in the Bestiary for size changes, however i highly doubt i should get +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con for going from a small halfling, shaping into a medium riding dog... Any help on this would be wonderful...

Another question i have is the polymorph subschool states you cannot change into creatures with a template. Is Dire, such as in Dire Animal (Dire tiger, Dire bear, Dire wolf) considered a template still? It was in 3.5.


Dags wrote:

I see that it states that if the polymorph spell causes you to change size apply the size modifiers as appropriate, but then it almost contradicts itself in the same sentence as you do not adjust your ability scores for this size difference. I thought the +1 to attack and -1 to ac was due to a +2 str and -2 dex modifier... Am i missing a table somewhere in the book for this? My associate showed me a table in the Bestiary for size changes, however i highly doubt i should get +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con for going from a small halfling, shaping into a medium riding dog... Any help on this would be wonderful...

Another question i have is the polymorph subschool states you cannot change into creatures with a template. Is Dire, such as in Dire Animal (Dire tiger, Dire bear, Dire wolf) considered a template still? It was in 3.5.

Dire was never a template. It was just a bigger, meaner version of the same animal. Once you get access to large animals it is better to become a dire tiger in Pathfinder as opposed to a regular tiger because the base damage on attacks is higher. The Horrid Template in Eberron, which required the animal to be Dire first IIRC was a template.

I think the spells assume you are starting off as a medium sized creature. If you are not medium sized I would use the charts to adjust as necessary.


Dags wrote:
I thought the +1 to attack and -1 to ac was due to a +2 str and -2 dex modifier

The +1 to attack and -1 to AC are size modifiers, they are not assumed ability modifiers; modifiers to attack/AC from added STR/DEX is in addition.

The tables for modifiers due to size changes are in the Monster Advancement section of the Bestiary (just past midway in this PRD page):
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html

Quote:


Another question i have is the polymorph subschool states you cannot change into creatures with a template. Is Dire, such as in Dire Animal (Dire tiger, Dire bear, Dire wolf) considered a template still? It was in 3.5.

Dire was not a template in 3.5; at least not officially. I know there were some third party publishers that provided rules for a Dire Template, but I'm pretty sure the Dire creatures in the MM didn't conform to those rules.

Dark Archive

Thank you for the quick reply and clarification i actually missed the other table. I am sort of regretting playing a halfling druid now unfortunately when i can just get enlarged and get the same amount of strength. But what are you going to do? *shrugs*

I forgot the other question that i had was about the pathfinder polymorph subschool:
"These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."

When determining your current attacks, for example if a creature has weapon finesse feat, you do not get their feats, but is it more appropriate to use the dex for attack because that creature naturally does?

I think i more ment with the Dire Animals the following as well "Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature."

Is it considered an advanced version of a creature and as such ruled out by this polymorph description


Blake Duffey wrote:

Where is the best explanation on rules for this? Our party druid is changing into numerous animals gaining movement abilities, multiple attacks, etc. (giant squid, for example)

I'd like to clarify

Also keep in mind there is a limit to how many times per day he can change. And yes each change lasts for a long time... but he is stuck in that form until he either ends the effect or changes into something else that burns another use. While in animal form the druid cannot speak and will have to have natural spells to cast spells. Enforcing the "no-speaking" is a big deal in some games. Also size may be an issue in some forms as well at higher levels.

Liberty's Edge

Just to be clear with this:
When you polymorph you first look at whether you are already either small or medium. If you are not, you should look at the chart in the polymorph section (part of chapter 9 of core) about adjusting your ability scores.
Then, you look at the effect that polymorphs you (usually a spell or behaving as one) and change your size to the size it indicates with appropriate bonuses/penalties directly to attack, AC, CMB, CMD and stealth checks. These are NOT indirect modifiers from stat changes!
Then you look at the stat changes the spell gives you. Do NOT use the ones for monsters unless the spell explicitly tells you to! The spell overrides these normal stat adjustments! These stat adjustments are in addition to the ones from the polymorph section for adjusting your size to small/medium.

A small/medium druid who turned into a huge-sized earth element would gain 8 str, 4 con, lose 2 dex and gain 6 natural armor. In addition their attack rolls would gain a -2 for size, as would their AC. Their CMB and CMD would gain a +2 for size, and their stealth check would get a -8 for size.
Assuming a nekkid medium druid with 10 in every stat, they go from 10 AC to 13 (-1 dex, -2 size, +6 natural) and now have stats of 18, 8, 14, 10, 10, 10. Their to-hit (assuming BAB of +9) would be +11 (+9 BAB, +4 str, -2 size).

Liberty's Edge

I believe since this is not the polymorph spell, that you will need to use the specific spell referenced in the wildshape ability, which is Beastshape.

It gives very specific bonuses for specific animal sizes


Shar Tahl wrote:

I believe since this is not the polymorph spell, that you will need to use the specific spell referenced in the wildshape ability, which is Beastshape.

The Beast Shape spell is of the (polymorph) subschool, which means you have to use the rules therein as well :)

Dark Archive

Thank you Stabbitty for your input as well. I am still curious however if when it says specifically:

"These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."

Does that mean if the creature has Weapon Finesse, and uses its Dex bonus for attack, you use it as appropriate? or only if you have the Weapon Finesse feat... opinions?

As well when it says:

"Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature."

Does that mean creatures like Dire Animals, being Template, or a Advanced Version, depending on your background in D&D are not allowed when you can turn into Large Animals at level 6...

Thank you for future input on these questions.

The Exchange

Dags wrote:

Thank you Stabbitty for your input as well. I am still curious however if when it says specifically:

"These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses."

Does that mean if the creature has Weapon Finesse, and uses its Dex bonus for attack, you use it as appropriate? or only if you have the Weapon Finesse feat... opinions?

You need the Weapon Finesse feat in order to use your Dex Modifier for melee attacks. What that quote is saying is if you change into something that has a ranged attack, then you'd use Dex, and with a melee attack you use Str, unless YOU, not the animal, has Weapon Finesse, in which case you can use your Dex Mod.

Dags wrote:


As well when it says:

"Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature."

Does that mean creatures like Dire Animals, being Template, or a Advanced Version, depending on your background in D&D are not allowed when you can turn into Large Animals at level 6...

Thank you for future input on these questions.

Dire animals are neither templated nor are they advanced versions of other animals; they are a completely separate, unique species of animal, that is merely related to their non-Dire cousins.

Simple method to tell the difference between a template animal and a non-templated one: Does it have a completely separate Bestiary stat-block? Yes? Then it is a completely separate animal (with a few exceptions, like the Half-Fiend Minotaur). Easy way to tell the difference is that Paizo has listed the a name next to all of the "dire" animals that appears to be the name of a related, much larger, prehistoric animal.

Example: The Dire Ape is also known as the Gigantopithecus

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