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My friend wants to use Pathfinder to run a Darksun campaign. Right now he's trying to convert the gladiator. I can't think of any reason to even have this class. Gladiator seems more like a role instead of a class. Do you think it should be converted and if so, what abilities would you give it?
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My friend wants to use Pathfinder to run a Darksun campaign. Right now he's trying to convert the gladiator. I can't think of any reason to even have this class. Gladiator seems more like a role instead of a class. Do you think it should be converted and if so, what abilities would you give it?
3.0's sword and fist had a gladiator prestige class. first thing it did was give proficiency with all weapons (even exotic). I think you needed doge, power attack and combat expertise, but i may be wrong.
also check out http://www.athas.org/
its a darksun conversion for 3.0/3.5
edit i was wrong, it had:
fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Perform or Intimidate: 4 ranks. (Crowds respond
best to the most attractive and most menacing
combatants.)
Feats: Must have at least two feats from the list of
fighter bonus feats. You do not have to earn them as a
fighter, but they must appear on that list.
as pre reqs. it was a more defensive fighting class than brutal offense. it gave improved feint, and an ability to tire out your opponent after a few rounds of combat
I downloaded the stuff from Athas.org but I'm not really impressed with the gladiator classes (there are actually two different ones). I don't really know Darksun very well. Is the class even necessary? In 2nd Edition I can see the class as needed, but with the versatility of 3.X/Pathfinder it seems redundant. Am I wrong?
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My friend wants to use Pathfinder to run a Darksun campaign. Right now he's trying to convert the gladiator. I can't think of any reason to even have this class. Gladiator seems more like a role instead of a class. Do you think it should be converted and if so, what abilities would you give it?
You could take a look at how they built the Gladiator NPC in the GMG. Get some ideas from that.
Well ... 2e Gladiators were "armor masters" and really were the *only* class that could get higher and higher AC over time. I'd give 'em some sort of feature along those lines.
Improvised Weapon Mastery and EWP's should be sort of common, IMO.
*maybe* a d12 HD (they're tough son's o'guns! Probably the "barbarian" role before 3.0 reintroduced that class as a core option) as there was nothing on Athas tougher than a Gladiator ... other than a mul gladiator.
Umm ... not really sure what else, though.
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Of the top of my head, I think the PF fighter grants a lot of the "special" abilities that the Dark Sun gladiator had ("armour specialization" anyone?). I think the only real conversion issue would be on how to handle the arcane spellcasters ... there was a suggestion in a Dragon magazine about utilizing Defilement as a quick way to harness metamagic feats, has anyone tried that and found it to be doable?
You don't need a gladiator class in Pathfinder. Prestige class maybe. Any fighter is quite capable of becoming a gladiator. Just stick some ranks in Intimidate or Perform and you're all set. Complete Warrior has an exotic weapon master prestige class you can use, and it has gladiatorial match rules as well.
For defiling I am debating on using the 4E mechanic that they posted on the wizards site yesterday, albeit loosely, for a Pathfinder version of Dark Sun. I've converted it to something like this.
Free Action
Trigger: You make an attack roll or a damage roll as part of an arcane spell.
Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll but must use the second result. In addition, each ally (willing or unwilling) within 20 squares of you takes negative energy damage equal to half his or her level. This damage ignores immunities and cannot be reduced in any way. Special: You can use this effect once for any arcane spell you use, affecting any single attack roll or the damage roll for that spell.
I like it because it is so tempting to use, but requires a lot of caution so as not to kill your buddies.
I don't particularily care for the athas.org conversions.
My DM is running a pathfinder Dark Sun campaign starting in September and I've been helping him convert/update stuff from 3.5. Yeah we pretty much decided that you don't need a gladiator class. You could mock up an archetype though, where instead of getting weapon training you get exotic weapon proficiencies. Combat maneuvers are a big part of the feel, as is Dazzling Display.
A gladiator class seems awful redundant. How is a gladiator not a fighter and vice versa? I suppose you could do character development guidelines. IE, a gladiator typically takes the following skills and feats at the following levels. But it strikes me most players would rather just create their own unique characters than follow a list.
While I'll agree w/the "you can probably just use fighter" I will say that the gladiator's, setting wise, were mechanically different and specifically important enough to make distinctions about.
Hell, the DS Fighter was WAY more of a "leader of men" than any other version of the same - seriously - there was much more emphasis put into them in that specific role in the DS world. They were especially good at large-scale wars, etc on account of this. They were made into auto-proficient crafters and users of siege engines and such - very, very much the "men of war" is what Fighter's were all about. Honestly, since 3.x's appearance it's something I really, REALLY wish was brought back to the fighters some how - at least an an option to be the "leader" character of combat, tactics, and inspiration for your troops (ie: moral/competence/insight bonus granting abilities).
Likewise, a Gladiator was pointedly NOT a leader-type, but more of a "knows how to fight better than everyone else" type.
Now, w/PF's updates, the Fighter is closer to a Gladiator, but there are still setting specific enough elements that I'd easily say *at least* a PrC treatment should be there for it, if another fighter-like variant isn't enough to carry it through.
Gladiator specific bits (mining for info here from my AD&D material):
*Proficient in ALL weapons - they NEVER suffer from not having a weapon specifically trained for. They pick it up - *any* "it" and can use it just fine. This is REALLY a neat feature.
*Capable of specializing in many weapons - odd, as I never thought there was a limit on specializations. HOWEVER, what *is* noteworthy is that they *can* specialize in the first place, while NOT being a Fighter.
*Experts in Unarmed Combat - for what it's worth, they gained a +4 bonus over any other type of character similarly trained.
*Armor Optimization - Gains an AC benefit from his armor of +1 for every 5 levels of Gladiator he has. Consider it Armor Training (+) or (Beta) really, and that's where you're at for it.
*Gains followers like a fighter, BUT they are always other gladiators "who have come to study his fighting style" and stuff like that.
Honestly, there's not a WHOLE lot to make it different, but, if aiming for 'true to form' or 'purist' types of conversions (as I would lean towards as I've always LOVED the setting), then a gladiator w/out these benefits is just some schmoe who's been thrown into the slave pens. "Real" Gladiators rule combat. ;-)
They do NOT get any of the leader of men types of benefits of the fighter, though.
Honestly, a PrC of limited levels (maybe 5) would/could work just fine for a "true" gladiator vs. "schmoe in the pits" though. It should probably have reasonably low entry req's, though, to let it have more accessibility earlier on.
I am considering asking him just run Darksun 4E. He likes way to many houserules and it's hard to keep up with him sometimes. Right now he also wants to get rid of the spellcasting classes and give us all a psionic ability to heal ourselves. I have no idea what he's going to do with races. I hope he doesn't use that stupid rule about half-giants changing alignments daily.
I am trying to convince him to do as little changing as possible. I don't think he understands that, as players, we don't want dozens of pages of houserules. We want to play the game.
While I'll agree w/the "you can probably just use fighter" I will say that the gladiator's, setting wise, were mechanically different and specifically important enough to make distinctions about.
Agree
AgreeWhile I'll agree w/the "you can probably just use fighter" I will say that the gladiator's, setting wise, were mechanically different and specifically important enough to make distinctions about.
Yeah. I havn't seen the online 3.5 version of Gladiator, but In the original 2nd ed version, Gladiators could do things that fighters couldn't. Gladiators had all weapons, (fighters didin't then), multiple weapon specialization's. They had unarmed fighting.
I would think a pathfinderized gladiator should be designed for light armor. Large dodge bonuses. Give them things like dazzling display... Ok I am rambling. I think you could eliminate gladiator all together and use feat selections with a fighter, but a well designed class could still work.
I am considering asking him just run Darksun 4E. He likes way to many houserules and it's hard to keep up with him sometimes. Right now he also wants to get rid of the spellcasting classes and give us all a psionic ability to heal ourselves. I have no idea what he's going to do with races. I hope he doesn't use that stupid rule about half-giants changing alignments daily.
I am trying to convince him to do as little changing as possible. I don't think he understands that, as players, we don't want dozens of pages of houserules. We want to play the game.
Well as I recall half giants simply COULD change daily they didn't have to. It was a matter of them being easily influenced. They would mimic the most charismatic character around. I guess I can see how some people wouldn't like that, but the change shouldn't be mandatory.
*Capable of specializing in many weapons - odd, as I never thought there was a limit on specializations. HOWEVER, what *is* noteworthy is that they *can* specialize in the first place, while NOT being a Fighter.
\
Yeah you were only supposed to be able to specialize in 1 weapon back in 2nd.
I think I'd really need to see Pathfinder do psionics before I could look at a campaign in lovely old Athas.
Great setting and one of the few where Epic level play is not ridiculous.
One of the few where "epic" still mean's you're a low man on the totem pole ... IF you manage to reach that far.
;-)
Loves, me some Darksun, baby!!!
I think I'd really need to see Pathfinder do psionics before I could look at a campaign in lovely old Athas.
Great setting and one of the few where Epic level play is not ridiculous.
One of the few where "epic" still mean's you're a low man on the totem pole ... IF you manage to reach that far.
;-)
Loves, me some Darksun, baby!!!
Having successfully killed Draegoth at level 21, and a party member becoming a sorcerer king, I'd mildly disagree :P
While I'll agree w/the "you can probably just use fighter" I will say that the gladiator's, setting wise, were mechanically different and specifically important enough to make distinctions about.
In 2nd edition there was a strong reason for the distinction, there really no longer is.
My suggestions for a gladiator "kit"/archetype. Give up heavy armor and/or tower shields for 2 more skill points and Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive and Perform as class skills. Take Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level. Let them take a weapon training to allow them use of all exotic weapons. Take the feat Cornugarn Smash from d20pfsrd.com.
Having successfully killed Draegoth at level 21, and a party member becoming a sorcerer king, I'd mildly disagree :P
Well ... clearly *your* GM was using some kid-gloves, then. ;-)
Honestly, if you get to such levels of power, IMO, then the tone of the setting itself has shifted significantly from what it was intended to be (ie: survivalist themed in a world on it's last legs).
That said, it's a game setting and you can play it any way you/gm/the group wants to run it. If that involves finding a way to *save* the world and/or massively alter the power structure - more the power to ya'!
That, I would contest, is not true "Darksun" though - just my thoughts.
OK: Specifics for on-task thread stuff - ala: Conversions ...
Defilers and Preservers. This NEEDS to be primary, front and center somehow regardless of the version being used. It was probably THE most important setting element - the idea that defiling laid waste to the surrounding area, and at the highest levels could even stun and stagger living enemies nearby (thus increasing the danger of combat with defilers beyond them killing the world even FASTER).
To wit - some of the distinctions:
*Defilers gained levels faster
*Defilers always ruined the landscape around them
*Defilers, at higher levels, could drain spell energy from living beings (ie: enemy targets - maybe even allies)
*Preservers gained levels slower
*Preservers mostly used their own life energy to power spells (vs. ruining the land)
*Preservers *could* at any point "defile" rather than preserve and gain all of the benefits of Defilement magics - ie: it was truly an RP-intensive distinction.
Some ideas:
*maybe some sort of feat progression for Defilers to gain the life/daze/stun type of effects when casting?
*maybe run most people on the Middle/High progression of xp, and let defilers use the low/Fast progression (or whatever it's called - the one w/least amount of xp progression).
*maybe make preserving a sort of feat-intensive thing that lessens environmental damage and impact of their own casting? At *least* a level 1 feat that allows to "mask" the effects of defilment (ie: there *is* none at all up to level X of spells or something with progressive feats allowing to mask higher level spells).
Key RP thing - Defiler or Preserver - if identified by the public (ie: casting anything period, or clearly NOT being a Templar and using magic), the offending character could/should be attacked by EVERYONE in the area if possible. Seriously ... NO ONE is more hated in the DS world setting than the freakin' arcane casters ... no one.
Having successfully killed Draegoth at level 21, and a party member becoming a sorcerer king, I'd mildly disagree :PWell ... clearly *your* GM was using some kid-gloves, then. ;-)
Honestly, if you get to such levels of power, IMO, then the tone of the setting itself has shifted significantly from what it was intended to be (ie: survivalist themed in a world on it's last legs).
Oh hardly. We had character trees, and at the end of the campaign we all fought draegoth together. 21 level 17+ characters (and 2 of epic level) vs. a CR 41 sorcerer king trying to become a god. It's all in the adventure if you've read it. We were not expecting to live, and I think about 2/3+ of us died, and it required massive amount of munchkinism on my part, but we did it.
Believe me, the game very much was as you would expect from Dark Sun. I think there were 1 or 2 fighters with +2 weapons but that's the extend of magic items. At level 17-21.
The tone of the setting was always "wow these crazy things are happening and you're there to witness" and that was how it went down for 2 1/2 years...until the sorcerer kings themselves put the task to us to stop Draegoth.DL the adventure and look at the guy's stats. Eeew.
Thank you Speaker in Dreams. I am trying to help him convert but not only did I not enjoy Darksun to begin with, he hasn't decided exactly what he wants to do. The biggest two problems I have are the survival aspect and the casters. I don't enjoy games where I play against the environment. I also don't enjoy games where playing a particular class will get me killed. I'm really hoping that he at least doesn't make me deal with dehydration every session.
If you were to choose classes from the Core Book, which ones would you allow? Which ones would you ban for setting reasons?
Thank you Speaker in Dreams. I am trying to help him convert but not only did I not enjoy Darksun to begin with, he hasn't decided exactly what he wants to do. The biggest two problems I have are the survival aspect and the casters. I don't enjoy games where I play against the environment. I also don't enjoy games where playing a particular class will get me killed. I'm really hoping that he at least doesn't make me deal with dehydration every session.
If you were to choose classes from the Core Book, which ones would you allow? Which ones would you ban for setting reasons?
You know - I hear more "environment killed me" stuff tossed out there as almost paranoia. I've NEVER had a PC die in this fashion - there's been con drain and overall weaknesses, but NOT outright death as it's generally just a plot complication. If someone's hosing PC's w/it like that ... it's just not being done "right" as far as I'm concerned.
Sure - it's a possibility, and water is *literally* more valuable than gold, but so what? It's so NOT fun to deal with death by environment. Getting slowly spent on a long journey with a LOT of unforseen complications - fine. Totally "in setting" even, but to make the PC's the low totem pole mooks that don't make the trip? Bad GMing decision, IMO.
Ok, Classes from the Core? What to allow and disallow?
Allow:
Fighters - w/PF updates, as pointed out, they're *almost* gladiators already. Still, gladiators are important enough to consider a full 20 treatment IF done well, otherwise, just a 5 level PrC *should* take care of "real" gladiators vs. everyone else, IMO.
Rangers - definitely need/could use these guys. No real adjustments needed other than changing up animal companion choices.
Druids - same as rangers, basically.
Clerics - there are NO gods in Darksun. Clerics draw power from the elemental planes themselves. So ... come up with element-themed Domains and Domain powers and it'll work out just fine. For DS use, I'd suggest limiting ALL clerics to a single domain (earth, air, fire, water) PERIOD and *only* grant access to the abilities of that one domain over the course of their career. They MUST be dedicated to the worship of a single element to work like they were supposed to.
Barbarian - sure. why not? I can't think of any problems w/using them in-setting. Certainly not as a sort of wandering-culture, though, so much as a style of fighting.
Rogue - fine as is.
Monks - fine as is, though ... never mentioned/used in-setting previously. It doesn't really break anything to include them, either, though.
Potential Problem Classes
Sorcerer - honestly, not *that* much of a problem, but with the defiler/preserver distinction ... it's going to make for 4 total subclasses if you include these guys. Ie: Wizard/Preserver, Wizard/Defiler, Sorcerer/Preserver, Sorcerer/Defiler would be the combo's. Honestly, maybe just easing up on spell selections/ability to learn spells for sorcerer and *call* it a defiler could also work just fine. Then the more limited spell caster w/greater knowledge (ie: more guaranteed spells and more easily gained) would be the Wizard.
Wizard - see sorcerer.
Clerics - NEVER allow anything other than an elemental-based cleric. There *are* no Gods to power magic on Athas. They've either abandoned the world, never existed, or been destroyed somehow.
Banned Class
Paladins - the idea of being a champion of "good" simply is too foreign to be supported on Athas, not to mention the lack of any entities interested in granting/supporting such a goal with their own personal power. NO PALADINS ALLOWED!
APG Class Suggestions
Alchemist - sure, but still would have arcane issues and need to be defiler/preserver somehow with how the stuff gets powered (IMO anyway).
Cavalier - sure. Sort of a martial buffer-type, no? Why not? Fighting for "nobility" or "honor" though may need some re-fluffing or more tight restrictions around who they will serve, etc.
Inquisitor - no. Ban this.
Oracle - again defiler/preserver issues here.
Summoner - see oracle.
Witch - see oracle.
Unique Classes
Templars - I'm not really sure *how* to do these guys fully, but like a sorcerer option for clerics is what I remember them as. More casting, etc, tighter spell selection (before 3e did this, mind you), and then a limited range of influence - they could only really access their power within the city walls. More powerful templars *could* use some spell power further away, but they were always reduced if far from the city/sorcerer-king/etc. They should have domain-like powers of authority within their own city-states, but these powers/abilities should disappear outside of the power/reach of the city's influence, though. (domain-like in progression access is what I mean).
Gladiator - already mentioned as a PrC of maybe 5 levels. Otherwise, a full 20-level progression with some distinct and unique cap-stone could work, too.
Both of the above really do *need* to be present, though.
I think that defiler/preserver issue should not be resolved by adding classes by adding options to method of casting.
Arcane magic of Athas is powered by energy drawn from all living organisms around, most of the time vegetation. Preserver casting spells is very careful about drawing energy and causes no ecological damage. Defiler, on the other hand drains without care or finesse.
Two options I can think of:
1. To cast a spell while preserving surrounding vegetation caster must deliberately extend casting time. If he cast spells normaly he defiles, destroying vegetation.
2. (which players will probably find more to their liking) Preservation magic is default method but if you choose to defile you gain bonuses, such as caster level bonus, free metamagic feats applied to spell, etc.
Whatever the method is used corruptive influence of defiling magic should be taken into account - each defiling spell cast should slowly taint the character finally forcing him to defile each time he casts.
Aside from preservation/defilement.
Anyone thought about using Inquisitor class to represent Templars? I have only seen preview and not the final version.
You know - I hear more "environment killed me" stuff tossed out there as almost paranoia. I've NEVER had a PC die in this fashion - there's been con drain and overall weaknesses, but NOT outright death as it's generally just a plot complication. If someone's hosing PC's w/it like that ... it's just not being done "right" as far as I'm concerned.
Sure - it's a possibility, and water is *literally* more valuable than gold, but so what? It's so NOT fun to deal with death by environment. Getting slowly spent on a long journey with a LOT of unforseen complications - fine. Totally "in setting" even, but to make the PC's the low totem pole mooks that don't make the trip? Bad GMing decision, IMO.
With this DM, it's not paranoia. A few years ago he had our characters starve on a mountain climb because we didn't write down that we had rations for the week it took. We all assumed that we could just use Survival and that we would be fine. He didn't allow for that option but didn't tell us before hand that we would have to bring food. This is a real concern for me and I know that there is not really much advice you can give in this regard.
Ok, Classes from the Core? What to allow and disallow?
Allow:
Fighters - w/PF updates, as pointed out, they're *almost* gladiators already. Still, gladiators are important enough to consider a full 20 treatment IF done well, otherwise, just a 5 level PrC *should* take care of "real" gladiators vs. everyone else, IMO.
You've convinced me that the two should be separate. I'll see what I can do to help him with this. He's not going to allow monks but he said that he plans on giving the gladiator the monk unarmed combat abilities.
Druids - same as rangers, basically.
Clerics - there are NO gods in Darksun. Clerics draw power from the elemental planes themselves. So ... come up with element-themed Domains and Domain powers and it'll work out just fine. For DS use, I'd suggest...
So divine magic doesn't have the same problem as arcane? I thought it was all magic that caused the problem. Interesting.
Ok, so what if the druid just replaced the cleric? The druid already has the option of an animal companion or an elemental domain. If he allows the cleric also then he would have to find a way to boost them if they are losing a domain. With the druid, a simple change to the spontaneous casting to be either the summoning (if they choose the animal companion) or cure spells (if they choose more magic).
I noticed you didn't mention bards. Is there a place for them in Darksun?
I think that defiler/preserver issue should not be resolved by adding classes by adding options to method of casting.
Arcane magic of Athas is powered by energy drawn from all living organisms around, most of the time vegetation. Preserver casting spells is very careful about drawing energy and causes no ecological damage. Defiler, on the other hand drains without care or finesse.Two options I can think of:
1. To cast a spell while preserving surrounding vegetation caster must deliberately extend casting time. If he cast spells normaly he defiles, destroying vegetation.2. (which players will probably find more to their liking) Preservation magic is default method but if you choose to defile you gain bonuses, such as caster level bonus, free metamagic feats applied to spell, etc.
Whatever the method is used corruptive influence of defiling magic should be taken into account - each defiling spell cast should slowly taint the character finally forcing him to defile each time he casts.
Aside from preservation/defilement.
I think I like option #2 better. I'm not a fan of increasing casting times. Perhaps it's from playing in Lankhmar in 2nd Edition where the casting times were increased to the point of making casters unplayable.
I'll go over the metamagic option with him and see what he thinks.
Anyone thought about using Inquisitor class to represent Templars? I have only seen preview and not the final version.
Man ... I forgot to mention Bards.
The *only* problem they'll have is that their magic is arcane (ie: defiler/preserver issues), and IF they use it, they can expect some serious backlash for making that ability known in any way, shape, or form.
You *could* strip out casting all together and make some sort of DS-brand bard, though (maybe a bump in bab or skills for the effort?).
Classify them as "Potential Problem Class" officially, though - on account of the nature of their magic.
Every other thing about the class would/could/should be fine. They just HAVE to be very, VERY careful about their casting.
On the defiler/preserver bit - making a change by default of how magic works and making "defilement" a sort of tracked stat, and defiling in general allow for power boosts of spells ala: metamagics, then it's likley to work as well as some sort of feat-selection options.
IMO, IF going the feat-rout, the baseline/entry feat for each path of magic *should* be given by default to all arcane classes just to officially classify them as Defiler or Preserver for the setting.
Bard: If one wants to keep with old Dark Sun versions the simplest way to make classic Athas Bard is by taking Rogue and choosing skills/feats/abilities on poisons and assassination. Dark Sun Bards hadn't access to magic and their primary role was assassination/spying.
Clerics: I think that each of the elements available to clerics should have a few domains associated with it - as each element was connected to certain aspects of life (e.g. Water element was associated with healing). Also in addition to four base elements, four hybrid elements were present (Sun - Fire/Air, Rain - Water/Air, Silt - Earth/Air, Sand, Dust, or something like that - Air/Earth). I think that there were four more hybrid elements, that were much more malevolent than those.
Druid: IIRC Athas druids had innate bound with single natural feature, be it holy rock, lone pond of water, withered tree, etc. Their Nature Bond should be tweaked to represent this. Also this class was more appropriate to powerful NPCs than PCs, but still playable.
Monk: While not originally part of Dark Sun, they could be introduced easily as adepts of psionically-augmented martial arts. Psionic search enlightment and self-perfection linked with physical augmentation was part of the setting from the start. Just get rid of most oriental associations, replace monk weapons and change the name.
Also some tweaking with spell lists and some spells would be appropiate - e.g. reducing access to create water is first thing that comes to mind. With water price on Athas, ability to cast it at-will would be total game breaker.
Dark Sun was probably my favorite settings and I am currently working on some ideas myself.
Bards: Poisons are very different in 3.X and I think you could leave the class as is. You could simply have them draw their magic from the Black, which would add to their shady reputation. Their spell selection also makes this pretty easy. There was a kit that allowed this anyway if I remember.
An old Dragon Magazine had a great Defiling system. Look for Dragon Issue #315. It's a must.
I agree, no paladins, but making a Gladiator using a build similiar to a paladin or a cavalier might be a good idea.
The biggest thing is psionics, you cannot have Dark Sun without them. You can use a 3rd party release, make your own, or wait 2 years for Paizo to come out with something.
I have tried to think up a Trader class, but it's not an easy task. It's more of a role playing class, but might make an interesting Prestige Class.
I agree with some of the posters here. Honestly, the best way I can foresee dealing with class issues is as follows.
The Dungeon/Dragon articles can be used for defiling rules, and for some of the class modifications and setting rules. I would NOT allow paladins, sorcerers, or monks. Clerics should only be able to summon elementals. Bards should not get spells.
For psionics I would only allow the wilder and psion from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. That book also has rules for thri-kreen and half-giants you can port over to Pathfinderize.
Use the Exotic Weapon Master prestige class for gladiators, or just use the Fighter class and you should be all set.
Here's what I'd do. Standard clerics are Templars. Give them some "secular power" stuff, let them add half their level to diplomacy/sense movite something.
Oracles make GREAT elemental clerics. Take away the whole curse bit, and only allow the elemental things, and they work like a charm.
Disallow sorcerer, it just doesn't fit. As for Defilers, there are great defiling rules in dragon magazine, i think 315, where it amounted to free metamagic feats onto your spells for taking defiling points, which slowly taint you and turn you into a t'liz if you're not careful
I don't have the APG yet (probably won't for about a month) but would some of the classes be better represented with the new archetypes? Instead of reinventing the wheel, would it be easier to use the APG for much of this?
I have Dragon 315 and I'll take a look at it as soon as I can dig it up. Thanks for reminding me which issue. There was a Dungeon issue about the same time wasn't there?
Here's what I'd do. Standard clerics are Templars. Give them some "secular power" stuff, let them add half their level to diplomacy/sense movite something.
Oracles make GREAT elemental clerics. Take away the whole curse bit, and only allow the elemental things, and they work like a charm.
I was actually thinking pretty much the exact same thing. You could leave their curse in place if you wanted to. Clerics had to go through some sort of trial for their Elemental Lord and the curse could be a result of that trial.
Secular Power could be done with Role Play pretty easily and wouldn't have much of a change in Strength of classes.
I don't have the APG yet (probably won't for about a month) but would some of the classes be better represented with the new archetypes? Instead of reinventing the wheel, would it be easier to use the APG for much of this?
I have Dragon 315 and I'll take a look at it as soon as I can dig it up. Thanks for reminding me which issue. There was a Dungeon issue about the same time wasn't there?
Dragon 319 is the one where they "re-did" the dark sun campaign setting, and was paired with a dungeon magazine that had an adventure. Dragon 315 was their annual Classic Campaigns issue, and had articles for ravenloft and dark sun among others. The DS article was rules for defiler magic that I am quite fond of. I don't have time to elaborate but there are some ways that it is broken.
Aother thing to remember is the vast differences in the Dark Sun races. There is a post somewhere on this site called the PF Race Builders Guide which I like to use, it's pretty simple to understand. I don't see any need to change the stats as they did in 2nd Edition, since you didn't even get a bonus with most stats until about 16, as opposed to 12 with 3.X. Here's my example of a Dark Sun Elf using the above mentioned post as a guide line.
Dark Sun Elf
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
Medium Creatures
Normal Speed: 30 ft.
Low Light Vision
Illusion Resistance: +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells or effects. Elves are naturally suspicious.
Elven Movement: Use the Fleet feat. (+5 ft. movement in light or no armor).
Elven Run: Elves retain their Dexterity bonus to AC while running.
Keen Senses: Keep as is.
Weapon Familiarity: Keep as is.
You might think about adding a +2 racial bonus to Sense Motive skill checks, I don't think that would be too over powering.
The old elven run rules were mostly for role play and I'm not sure how practical they would be. You could use the rules at Athas.Org for an elven run, you'd just need to change it from a Concentration check to something else (a modified Constitution check perhaps).
Also some tweaking with spell lists and some spells would be appropiate - e.g. reducing access to create water is first thing that comes to mind. With water price on Athas, ability to cast it at-will would be total game breaker.
TSR's second edition rules just stated that any "survival" spell (Create Food/Water) only yielded half the results as the spell would in any other world. That left the spell in, kept the group alive during wilderness treks, but provided some interesting party friction when trying to decide who got their full water requirement for the day, and who got left with only a half ration.
I'll disagree on the Elves stuff above - they were RADICALLY different from ALL other elves of any type/sort. Case in point - Athasian Elves pointedly do NOT have a Con penalty at all. They're the "toughest" elves on the block essentially. All of their magical connections and abilities? Gone! *poof* w/the flora and fauna of the world - the elves are 'broken' and 'shattered' compared to their bretheren of other game worlds. No nature ==> no magic buffs for elves.
I *do* however, like the idea of the sense motive - they're the consummate shiesters and con-men of the setting now. It fits quite well. Maybe appraise checks as well?
I like all of Drejk's suggestions above. I totally forgot about the bards and the poison/assassin role they had - whip up some sort of poison junk for 'em and ditch the spell casting - outright. That's my vote! ;-) {Good call, D!}
I'm also liking the suggestion of meatrace w/the oracles and templar/normal cleric stuff (really kind of fits best IF elemental clerics are a *bit* more limited like - 1 domain/element period and less bonus spells). The key of templars was a LOT of increased casting from what I remember vs. the cleric, but at the tighter/more restricted range.
I'm especially liking the idea of slight tinkering w/oracles to just get that "weird" feeling of the setting that makes clerical magic quite different from the standard fare. Nice, NICE idea, IMO.
As for the defilers and meta stuff for free ---> broken ... that was *always* the point of defilers in the first place - they were broken, but had a LOT of in-game penalties to deal with for taking that path of "quick power" and such. There were no bones made about it - defilers were sanctioned "cheaters" in-game. Might as well roll with that still, IMO.
The original 2nd Edition Dark Sun Elves had a +2 Dexterity, +1 Intelligence, -2 Constitution, and a -1 Wisdom. A -2 in 2nd Edition was a pretty big penalty.
You could easily change the negative to Wisdom, but Athasian Elves were really tall and really thin (Average: 7' 2" tall, weighing 175 lbs.). They were tough when it came to harsh enviroments, but so was everything else on Athas.
Elves were con-men, but they also thought everybody else was out to con them. That's why I replaced Enchantment with Illusion. I did take away all their other magic related stuff. I am still floating other versions around in my head.
I chose Charisma to replace Intelligence (in the original 2nd Edition) because all the writings, stories, and other "fluff" described them as being Charismatic, just not always to an honest end.
I thought about a Bard / Alchemist hybrid for Dark Sun, but it's not the easiest thing to make without knocking things out of balance.
Halflings would be the easiest to change. Exchange the +2 Charisma for a +2 Wisdom. Athasian halflings were not, by any means, cute and friendly and such thoughts could get you eaten.
Well ... damn. I stand corrected on elves - weird as ALL of the fluff describes, basically, the opposite. Even the Complete Book of Elves mentions how much tougher those elves are than the others.
Well, given PF standards, I'd suggest the following "tweaks" to the elf:
*+2 Dex (as normal), and leave it at that. (this is like the humans +2 to *one* stat, only it's a defined stat for elves)
*No con penalty (this is the secondary boost or whatever).
That'll take care of the physicality descriptions and inconsistency w/the fluff. It also keeps it more or less in line w/PF's junk.
Other stuff to keep:
*low light vision
*keep the weapon familiarity (ignore the DS "my tribe only" junk for simplicity)
*take the "elf run" stuff from Athas.org
drop the rest of the elf bonuses.
-elven magic
-elven immunities
Suggestions:
*add some skill bonus for Sense Motive/Diplomacy/Appraisal or something to deal with their social/trader natures.
Even in 2nd Edition I hated the "My Tribe Only" weapon rule. It made little sense, even for a Fantasy RPG.
There are several ways to redo the races and classes, I'm trying to find one that best matches Pathfinder and the Original Rules, so some things might get left out. I have no idea how to work in the very broad "Dwarven Focus" for example. I might just work in a Skill Focus feat for a chosen Craft, Profession, or Knowledge skill. A lot of time can be wasted in arguements with "Of course killing this monster is part of my focus!"
I'm not sure if this is a good thread for it, but I'd post some of my final conversions if you want some ideas, and I'm pretty accepting of constructive critism as well.
I'm always down for conversion notes, and such myself. Making 'em Darksun specific is gravy for me, man. ;-D
I'd like to see any conversions you've done as well.
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I am trying to convince him to do as little changing as possible. I don't think he understands that, as players, we don't want dozens of pages of houserules. We want to play the game.
Maybe he as a DM isn't satisfied with the rules as they are by default. I personally have the "dozens of pages of houserules" that you're describing. Some of my PCs like them, some don't (the ones that don't mostly just dislike that they have to reference the houserules and can't just assume the PFRPG book is right). *shrug* That's just personal preference though.
Personally I'm not interested in running a game by the book unless it's at a convention and I'm running PFS. If it's a home game, I'll change the things I don't like or that don't fit logically. I try to have the changes done pre-campaign so as to not jar the players by introducing houserules in the middle.
The houserules build up over time, and each new campaign tends to keep the houserules from the last campaign. Usually they're small changes to how a class works or something, or that you can use this feat with this feat even though the official ruling says you can't (charge+vital strike). Sometimes it's a new mechanic (I redid counterspelling, have a more even spread random stat gen method that gives similar numbers but keeps the players closely balanced, and made WILL be cha based, plus skills per level are calculated different and rely on int AND wis), and sometimes it's a matter of importing a mechanic from another game (usually another d20 game) that revises major aspects of gameplay (Trailblazer's multiclass spellcaster rules).
Maybe he as a DM isn't satisfied with the rules as they are by default. I personally have the "dozens of pages of houserules" that you're describing. Some of my PCs like them, some don't (the ones that don't mostly just dislike that they have to reference the houserules and can't just assume the PFRPG book is right). *shrug* That's just personal preference though.
Personally I'm not interested in running a game by the book unless it's at a convention and I'm running PFS. If it's a home game, I'll change the things I don't like or that don't fit logically. I try to have the changes done pre-campaign so as to not jar the players by introducing houserules in the middle.
The houserules build up over time, and each new campaign tends to keep the houserules from the last campaign. Usually they're small changes to how a class works or something, or that you can use this feat with this feat even though the official ruling says you can't (charge+vital strike). Sometimes it's a new mechanic (I redid counterspelling, have a more even spread random stat gen method that gives similar numbers but keeps the players closely balanced, and made WILL be cha based, plus skills per level are calculated different and rely on int AND wis), and sometimes it's a matter of importing a mechanic from another game (usually another d20 game) that revises major aspects of gameplay (Trailblazer's multiclass spellcaster rules).
There are a few problems with too many houserules and this particular DM
1) He tends to throw them at you when you are playing without any warning or consistency
2) None of the players in this group want to sort through pages of houserules that aren't necessary. For example, if the cleric is restricted to choosing one elemental domain and one other, there is no need for an entire class rewrite. He is considering a full rewrite instead. It's not always necessary to change things dramatically.
3) The houserules aren't always needed. Counterspelling needs a change. Being told that I have a -2 to Perception checks in torch light because it's flickering is not needed. Yes, this actually came up with this DM.
I don't mind houserules when they are necessary or to get a particular feel. I've done it myself. I have found that it's often more work than is needed and I spent more time on changing the rules than I did on making sure my players had a good time.
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There are a few problems with too many houserules and this particular DM
1) He tends to throw them at you when you are playing without any warning or consistency
2) None of the players in this group want to sort through pages of houserules that aren't necessary. For example, if the cleric is restricted to choosing one elemental domain and one other, there is no need for an entire class rewrite. He is considering a full rewrite instead. It's not always necessary to change things dramatically.
3) The houserules aren't always needed. Counterspelling needs a change. Being told that...
That could be a problem with your particular DM. If I'm going to houserule something I do my best to make sure players know before it comes up, either pre-campaign, or at the beginning of the session I'm going to rule it for.
I've gone the full rewrite route, it was mostly just a CnP, but I told the players to reference the rewrite instead of their book for the class.
Some players get annoyed, but I've seen the other way lead to substantial confusion with players that don't pay enough attention (like 1/3 of them).
Okay, yeah that sounds pretty arbitrary, but I know alot of GMs who do that: give lots of +2s or -2s for situational things. Bright sunny day? +2 to perception. Nighttime? -2. etc. it can work out if they give + modifiers as often as negative, but I'm getting the impression he doesn't do that.
If you're interested in the counterspell changes, I sent them in to Kobold Quarterly, and I may have an article in issue 15. (they approved the query, but I haven't heard back about the approval).
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Well ... damn. I stand corrected on elves - weird as ALL of the fluff describes, basically, the opposite. Even the Complete Book of Elves mentions how much tougher those elves are than the others.
Well, given PF standards, I'd suggest the following "tweaks" to the elf:
*+2 Dex (as normal), and leave it at that. (this is like the humans +2 to *one* stat, only it's a defined stat for elves)
*No con penalty (this is the secondary boost or whatever).That'll take care of the physicality descriptions and inconsistency w/the fluff. It also keeps it more or less in line w/PF's junk.
Other stuff to keep:
*low light vision
*keep the weapon familiarity (ignore the DS "my tribe only" junk for simplicity)
*take the "elf run" stuff from Athas.orgdrop the rest of the elf bonuses.
-elven magic
-elven immunitiesSuggestions:
*add some skill bonus for Sense Motive/Diplomacy/Appraisal or something to deal with their social/trader natures.
There is the desert elf stuff in the APG that give much the same effects. Infact I think the feature is to do with running and exaustion. I think where possible when converting material you should try and use some existing rules. It makes games run smoother when you can look to one of the official books.
Sure does ... and I would have ... IF I had an APG to look over. ;-P
That said, I'll be looking that over as well (once I have a copy). In the meantime, it's just a thought exercise really in working on conversion from one system and set of assumptions, fluff text, and a newer system and set of assumptions.