Okay, so I'm practicing the Pathfinder rules with a friend. He has a bard and I have a dwarf. Now the situation is we're having a disagreement on which way to go. And he asks if he can make a charisma/skill check to convince me to go his way.
Can he?
I mean, it makes sense. If I wanted to attack him I'd have to roll. But can stats trump roleplaying (if they roll high enough) in certain circumstances?
- Senator
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IIRC it's historically been established that Diplomacy checks and Intimidate checks made to improve a persons attitude don't work on a PC unless they want them to. Note that diplomacy starts with the following:
You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check.
Emphasis mine.
That said, if your bard can make a really good argument than the player playing the dwarf can make them go along with it.
Okay, so I'm practicing the Pathfinder rules with a friend. He has a bard and I have a dwarf. Now the situation is we're having a disagreement on which way to go. And he asks if he can make a charisma/skill check to convince me to go his way.
Can he?
I mean, it makes sense. If I wanted to attack him I'd have to roll. But can stats trump roleplaying (if they roll high enough) in certain circumstances?
- Senator
I beleive that all social interaction between PC's is done with RP. Skill rolls for social interacitons are used on NPC's because they don't have a dedicated solo player to be that character forever and therefore there needs to be a mechanical system on place to handle social interactions at times.
But PC's are run by players. They know how their charactes think and react, what their goals and motivations are and why they want to do what they do (for the most part).
So the interactions between players do not need the games social skills to come into play.
As well, I beleive, in the skills section or in certain skill description it says the same thing, that social skills work on NPC's not player characters, so your rogue in the party cannot say you need to give him all your wealth and make a bluff check and have it happen for example.
...yeah, what he said. (Near ninja-ing. 8^)
If I was the GM of this group, I would allow the players to resolve it via roleplaying or opposed checks, but I would encourage the former.
Mind you, there is nothing stopping a player from deciding that his/her character is convinced in the proposed situation if that is what they want to decide.
It is just that they cannot be forced into that decision by game mechanics.
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...yeah, what he said. (Near ninja-ing. 8^)
If I was the GM of this group, I would allow the players to resolve it via roleplaying or opposed checks, but I would encourage the former.
Mind you, there is nothing stopping a player from deciding that his/her character is convinced in the proposed situation if that is what they want to decide.
It is just that they cannot be forced into that decision by game mechanics.
Well, there's always enchantment.
Okay, so I'm practicing the Pathfinder rules with a friend. He has a bard and I have a dwarf. Now the situation is we're having a disagreement on which way to go. And he asks if he can make a charisma/skill check to convince me to go his way.
Can he?
I mean, it makes sense. If I wanted to attack him I'd have to roll. But can stats trump roleplaying (if they roll high enough) in certain circumstances?
- Senator
As a GM, I rarely use NPC skills to dictate player actions. That said, my players (and myself when I am a player) do occassionally uses skills against each other. Usually it is done as a way of one-uping the other PC, but occassionally it is used by the PCs to "end" an arguement or discussion. For example, if a discussion about what course of action the group should take is bogging the game down, the PCs may use the appropriate skills to convience the other PCs (who will grumble about it and are quick with a "told you so" if things go bad).
Generally, don't be afraid to turn the skill check into a roleplaying opportunity.
diplomacy checks no, only you decide who your character likes or agrees with. However for my group at least, bluff vs sense motive we do use the skill checks for determining if you believe someone or not.
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Okay, so I'm practicing the Pathfinder rules with a friend. He has a bard and I have a dwarf. Now the situation is we're having a disagreement on which way to go. And he asks if he can make a charisma/skill check to convince me to go his way.
Can he?
I mean, it makes sense. If I wanted to attack him I'd have to roll. But can stats trump roleplaying (if they roll high enough) in certain circumstances?
- Senator
No, and any player or GM for that fact that allowed that type of action to work on a fellow player would be considered poor players or GM's IMO. You're character has just as much free will as you the person playing it.
No, and any player or GM for that fact that allowed that type of action to work on a fellow player would be considered poor players or GM's IMO. You're character has just as much free will as you the person playing it.
I'm sorry, but the response I've quoted and a couple like it just smack of "You're doing it wrong" to me.
It's perfectly fine for the DM to allow the bard to make a diplomacy check, and if he does well, then he could simply tell you "What the bard is saying sounds pretty reasonable to your dwarf".
Exactly how your character reacts is up to you, of course.
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No, and any player or GM for that fact that allowed that type of action to work on a fellow player would be considered poor players or GM's IMO. You're character has just as much free will as you the person playing it.I'm sorry, but the response I've quoted and a couple like it just smack of "You're doing it wrong" to me.
It's perfectly fine for the DM to allow the bard to make a diplomacy check, and if he does well, then he could simply tell you "What the bard is saying sounds pretty reasonable to your dwarf".
Exactly how your character reacts is up to you, of course.
Thats basically what I said. Sure the GM could allow the bard to make a diplomacy check vs.the dwarf but no matter what the bard rolled the answer or reaction the dwarf makes can be whatever he wants it to be. The dice rolled by the bard having no bearing on the situation.
As a side note, during the Beta test there was a big discussion about the interaction skills. Some people wanted to do away with them and other wanted to keep them. A few people posted at the time about players that suffer from Asperger's syndrome and similar conditions. These people lack the ability to read body language and have a hard time in social situations in real life. This actually makes roleplaying difficult for them. Using the skills (even against other PCs) is often the only way for them to have their characters do something that they have problems doing themselves.
While in general, the skills should not dictate PC actions, sometime you have to make exceptions to the RAW. It is ultimately up to the GM to decide.
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While in general, the skills should not dictate PC actions, sometime you have to make exceptions to the RAW. It is ultimately up to the GM to decide.
Agreed 100%. The games I GM the Bluff, Intimidate and Diplomacy skills pretty much are bonuses. I require players role play the situation out if they are trying those actions and if they have ranks in those skills that will help the situation but role play for the most part is required by me.
There are two key issues to remember here:
1 - You can't just roll skills at a PC to brainwash them, that way leads only to madness. (And it doesn't work that way even on NPCs - a friendly target can still disagree with you, they'll just do it nicely.)
2 - The entire reason you have a Charisma stat to begin with is so you can roleplay someone who isn't you.
So my advice is: roleplay it out, but make sure you remember that the bard is a lot more charismatic and convincing than the guy playing him probably is. This is the converse of the "you can't come up with that brilliant strategy, you're only Int 7" rule.
Well, there's always enchantment.
Very true but then that would be a discussion on spells, not skills.
Thanks again for your wonderful input gamers! From what I see it's all about striking a balance. Understanding the feel of the mechanical "throttle" of the game. I like this.
- Senator