Advice of building a Sorcerer


Advice

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AdAstraGames wrote:

Why Burning Hands?

At 4th level, Burning Hands does 5 or 10 damage on average to everything in a 15' cone. Scorching Ray does 14 damage to one target within 30', but requires you to make a roll to hit them, not them to make a roll to avoid damage. You need to beat a DC 12-14 target rolling at +4 to hit them, or they need to beat a DC 16 target at ~+3 to avoid getting damaged. Tell me why this is a choice?

Neither is particularly great. A 15' cone is CLOSE and unless you are burning friends it means that you have nothing between you and the things that you just pissed off.

Burning hands is great on a scroll for burning webs (even with fellow PCs in them). It's also nice for swarms at low levels (until fireball can be afforded). But beyond that it isn't all that great.

Make use of it if you're elemental bloodline, but otherwise I'd pass unless you have a spell swap to remove it.

-James


My favorite sorceress at level 1 had a 20 cha (18+2 human) with spell focus enchantment, greater spell focus enchantment, and the infernal bloodline. At level 1 charm person had a DC20 and would end most encounters on single opponents. Just the look on the DM's face when his level 4 cleric with an 18 wis still has less than a 50% chance of success is priceless.


james maissen wrote:
AdAstraGames wrote:

Why Burning Hands?

At 4th level, Burning Hands does 5 or 10 damage on average to everything in a 15' cone. Scorching Ray does 14 damage to one target within 30', but requires you to make a roll to hit them, not them to make a roll to avoid damage. You need to beat a DC 12-14 target rolling at +4 to hit them, or they need to beat a DC 16 target at ~+3 to avoid getting damaged. Tell me why this is a choice?

Neither is particularly great. A 15' cone is CLOSE and unless you are burning friends it means that you have nothing between you and the things that you just pissed off.

Burning hands is great on a scroll for burning webs (even with fellow PCs in them). It's also nice for swarms at low levels (until fireball can be afforded). But beyond that it isn't all that great.

Make use of it if you're elemental bloodline, but otherwise I'd pass unless you have a spell swap to remove it.

-James

Let's look at blasty spells:

0: Ray of Fros, Acid Splash. Only advantage to them is that they never run out, so you've always got something.

1: Burning Hands: Multi-target, 15' cone. Lowish damage.
1: Magic Missile: Single target, only a bit more damage than BH, damage goes up at a glacial pace. No saving throw.
1: Shocking Grasp: Single target, have to touch someone to hit them.

Of those three, Burning Hands is the clear winner.

2: Acid Arrow: At 4th level, does more damage than Magic Missile and a bit more than Burning Hands. Ranged Touch, no saving throw, and LONG ranged.
2: Scorching Ray: 4 more points than Burning Hands, single target, need to hit someone with it. Meh.
2: Flaming Sphere: Woo. Let's make a spell that ties my concentration up for multiple rounds to do 3d6 per round. STILL better than Scorching Ray, but that Reflex for negation sucks.

3: Fireball. OK, long range, area effect, finally averages about twice what a Burning Hands spell does. Not bad for having to wait 5 levels to get it.
3: Lightning Bolt. At least it's a less common damage resistance, but it's likely to be two or three targets at most, rather than everything in an area.

I am not worried about the 'friendly fire' aspects of Burning Hands - I'm usually standing 20-25 feet behind my wall of convenient pointy headed sociopaths. To get to me, something usually had to make a double move to get past them.

Blasty is always the least effective choice. Burning Hands, at 1st level, will hold you until you get Fireball at 8th.


Small piece of advice on spell choices. Choose spells you intend to cast repeatedly. I'd suggest against duplicating spells of a similar nature. Go for spells with a broad utility. Summon spells are useful, but I'd skip a level in between. Being able to fly gets you out of many jams, but will move you away from the party.

Variety is the spice of life, and the key to successful sorcery.


Building on that advice:

1) Pick spells that are either VERY efficient at what they do, or which stack nicely with other advantages, OR which are flexible and can do multiple things, or which have their utility limited by your imagination.

Unseen Servant is the major spell in that second category for me.


How do you use Unseen Servant?


Acid splash doesn't allow SR. That can be a very useful thing at low levels, and with the right choices can delivery useful damage for several levels. Remember point blank shot works with it (deadly aim does not however) so you can get a +1 right there. The draconic bloodline adds 1 to the damage too if you pick an acid based dragon. Evokers (wizards) get more use out of ray of frost since they get half their class level as a damage bonus also. At the end of the day as a level zero cantrip it's not bad for damage, but you'll probably be done with it by 4th level, if not sooner.

Magic missile is NOT single target. It will deal more damage than burning hands and at great ranges against a single target (and probably even if you split it between two targets).

A spell left off the blasting list above is Chill Touch. While a touch spell you can get multiple uses out of it, it has different effects against undead and can debuff as well. This spell is a touch spell so it is concievable that you could use vital strike with it, and even if you don't if you have the BAB you can make multiple touches in one round with it.

Acid Arrow is the low level spell of choice for damaging spellcasters, things with SR, or stuff with regeneration/acid. Against spellcasters it forces concentration checks for rounds after you cast it causing not just damage but possible spell lost. It can kill regeneration for multiple rounds making it useful if you aren't sure if your party will kill the troll this round or two rounds from now.

Scorching Ray is again not single target, and at higher levels (read 12th) will hit three times (with possible criticals on all three hits) for 4d6 each time. Again you can use point blank shot with it (and still not deadly aim) and it doesn't allow a save throw. As far as damage spells go this one is actually nice for its level. The biggest problem is the fact it deals fire damage -- something that usually becomes obsolete at later levels.

Flaming sphere targets creatures best saves, deals only 3d6 damage if they fail (if the succeed it deals no damage!) stops on the first target it hits each round, eats up your actions, and again deals fire damage (possibly setting stuff on fire). I would really avoid this spell.

Another spell left off the list above: Explosive Runes. Not always useable but when you need a delayed blast writing a letter "I" on the wall and casting this spell on it does that. Also Explosive Runes deals force damage so write on a card cast the spell and have some one read it while standing beside a ghost -- ghost takes full damage since it was adjacent to the blast point (important point about the spell -- those adjacent take full damage no save!).

Unseen Servant:

This is a dozy of a spell. it can help your fighter friend get his armor on, carry stuff for you (though not much) go in areas that would hurt you, set off traps, fetch things, and possibly even spook simple minded enemies (this last effect will take work). If you have a job that needs doing repeatedly the unseen servant can generally do it.

Now my own suggestions on spells:

1st level:
Shield, Ray of enfeeblement, Unseen Servant, protection from alignment, color spray, Enlarge person.

I like shield over mage armor for a sorcerer because you have a few more castings and shield bonuses are rare for arcane spell casters, while getting armor bonuses is much easier.

2nd level:
glitterdust, acid arrow, Mirror image, false life, pyrotechnics, Summon swarm

Some of those will drop off later levels. 2nd level has a lot of good spells that you'll need some time to decide on -- this is a focusing level for sorcerer.

3rd level:
Stinking cloud, haste, slow, ray of exhaustion,

4th level:
Dimensional anchor, Dimension Door, Summon Monster 4, Resilient sphere, Invisibility Greater, Crushing Despair, Enervation

Past this point you should have enough experience with your GM, and your own style to figure things out for yourself much more.


AdAstraGames wrote:


I am not worried about the 'friendly fire' aspects of Burning Hands - I'm usually standing 20-25 feet behind my wall of convenient pointy headed sociopaths. To get to me, something usually had to make a double move to get past them.

So to use burning hands you will spend a move action to get directly behind your 'sociopaths' to cast a spell that will damage both them and a bad guy (or two)?

To get you NOW that something doesn't need to take a double move to get past the 'sociopaths' that you've also burned...

Not really seeing the good side here.

If you are arguing that it has a decent shot to deal 10 damage rather than 5 at 4th level, well then flaming sphere will do better as it will last for 4 rounds and deal the damage to a single target.

-James


It's true that a fighter can outdamage a blasting sorcerer.

But the blasting sorcerer isn't generally just a blaster, and his other spells make him far more versatile than a fighter. In particular, when the sorcerer has time to prepare before a fight he'll be very effective, with mirror image or greater invisibility or fly, he can make himself quite difficult to counterattack. Also, the sorcerer shines against creatures with very high ACs from armor or natural armor, since he's making a touch attack, and against creatures with high damage reduction.

Does Pathfinder have an equivalent to the Energy Substitution feat? IMO this feat really makes the blaster sorcerer work; without it they're in danger of getting shut down by energy resistance.

Ken


james maissen wrote:


So to use burning hands you will spend a move action to get directly behind your 'sociopaths' to cast a spell that will damage both them and a bad guy (or two)?

My experience is this:

1) Melee types are 25-35 feet ahead of me. Opposition is 5-15 feet ahead of them.

2) I usually go first. +8 Init rocks the world. My job is to cast a spell that will A) reduce the threats the melee types can't handle or B) turn off the fight fast. Sleep, hold person, hideous laughter. Anything where I can make something do a Will 'save or suck'.

3) If something gets between me and the melee types, it's doing one of two things: Attempting to flank/backstab one of them or coming after me. Regardless, that's the circumstances to pull out a damage causing spell - and for that, Burning Hands does nicely, and is a cheap spell (1st level) so I've got plenty of them per day (7-8)

If I can damage 4 targets with Burning Hands for 4d4 each, or damage two targets with magic missile for 1d4+1 apiece, the first is a better option.


AdAstraGames wrote:


If I can damage 4 targets with Burning Hands for 4d4 each, or damage two targets with magic missile for 1d4+1 apiece, the first is a better option.

If you can damage 4 targets with burning hands more power to you (unless of course some of those 4 are your own party).

Personally I don't see it happening baring using a mount. Either way if you want to go with a 15' cone I'd go with color spray.

-James


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Controller Sorcerer - this concept is based mainly on the Enchantment and Illusion schools, which make a gnome (+1 DC on Illusion spells) with the Fey bloodline (+2 DC on compulsion spells) the obvious choice.

Gnome Sorcerer 5 (20-point buy)
8 Str (10 -2 race), 14 Dex, 12 Con (10 +2 race), 14 Int, 10 Wis, 19 Cha (16 +2 race +1 level)
1- Eschew Materials, Spell Focus (Enchantment)
3- Spell Focus (Illusion)
5- Improved Initiative
Skills: Craft (Alchemy) 3 (+10 with Obsession)*, Intimidate 5 (+12), Knowledge (Arcana) 3 (+8), Knowledge (Nature) 1 (+6), Perception 5 (+7 with Keen Senses), Spellcraft 3 (+8), Use Magic Device 5 (+12)
*- can "take 10" to create acid (craft DC 15), alchemist's fire, smokesticks, and tindertwigs (craft DC 20)
Spells: 1st-7, 2nd-5
Spells Known: acid splash, daze (DC 17), detect magic, lullaby (DC 17), mage hand, read magic; color spray (DC 17), entangle (bloodline), grease, identify, mage armor; hideous laughter (bloodline, DC 19), hypnotic pattern (DC 18), scorching ray

Start with mage armor (defense) and sleep (offense); cantrips acid splash, daze, detect magic, and lullaby. As a gnome, dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, and speak with animals are available as SLAs once per day each. As levels are gained, take mage hand, identify, read magic and hypnotic pattern, and grease and scorching ray (also, switch out sleep for color spray). In combat, the sorcerer should concentrate mainly on hindering (daze, lullaby, grease) and disabling (sleep/color spray, entangle, hypnotic pattern, hideous laughter) opponents. Damage will be mostly from acid splash and alchemical substances (acid, alchemist's fire); scorching ray can also be used once taken (or take invisibility and one rank in Stealth while reducing Knowledge (Arcana) by one rank; you'll need to invest in wands with damage spells for opponents that are resistant to mind-affecting spells). Use Magic Device can increase your versatility somewhat, but IMO only starts coming into its own around 7th-9th level (when you can make a DC 20 check at least 75-80% of the time), unless you're willing to take the Skill Focus feat on it. Outside of combat, the sorcerer supplies his party members with alchemical substances; entangle and Woodland Stride make the sorcerer highly effective in overgrown areas. The sorcerer's fairly intimidating (gnomes are considered a bit crazy), but will suffer the -4 penalty for being smaller than the target more often, so I'm not basing the character around it.

As the sorcerer gains more levels, deep slumber (at 7th), Fleeting Glance and poison (at 9th) add more options.


Cyxodus wrote:
Thanks everyone. If anyone else has an idea for building a battlefield control sorcerer for the Pathfinder Society, I would love to hear it.

Sure. Look for spells that target a large area, and NOT a single opponent. Remember that your job is not to win the fight with a single spell, it's to tilt the battle in your favor. Then, let the fighters do thier job.

I think you'll find plenty of spell suggestions above. I'll add Silent Image to the list. If you like inventive, creative solutions, well, this allows you to create an image of literally anything.

Bear in mind that illusion spells are a bit dependent on the DM, and in the Pathfinder Society, you could have a different DM each game. Be prepared for your illusions to vary a bit in usefulness.

As for playing him safely, remember that PFS games almost always have six players. You won't be alone. So your job, briefly, is this...

a) Am I out of the front line?
b) If no, move.
c) If yes, cast useful spells for party.

As for the burning hands debate, I've always felt that burning hands is the better spell, for a while. By 7th level, you have better options for 'kill everyone with fire', and magic missile is chiefly good because it always hits and has good range and is a force effect.


I'll direct my GM to this thread and sit down with him to create a sorcerer. I'll post what I come up with for review.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I made one mistake.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Spells Known: ... lullaby (DC 17)

Lullaby is a bard spell, not a sorcerer/wizard spell. Take flare instead.

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