On that note, does anyone else have any more input on the matter, or thoughts or arguments? I do like getting more input just to know if it seems balanced, or too complicated, and whatnot.
Sorry to technically bump this topic, but I don't really want it dying before I can figure a perfectly valid rule for this, just so it wasn't a waste. (Though to be honest, it's been far from a waste, considering all of the input and thought regarding it. Thanks to everyone, by the way :D )
So far, the idea is working off of the basis of what Viking had said, though tweaked slightly. The only rule I am really fiddling around with is the nonlethal damage because it doesn't make sense in combat, and is kind of odd out of combat, because it only applies when referring to sleep deprivation (And thus, is effectively a new stat altogether).
Was thinking of adding that people can keep the penalties in combat, or use the rule of Adrenaline. Whereas they can keep the penalties in combat, they can negate them for the current combat, however, afterward, move immediately to the next level of sleep deprivation for overdoing it. Was also thinking, if there is such a thing as coffee in my game world, perhaps it could give the benefit of like... +5 to sleep deprivation checks for 8 hours or something similar.
Instead of Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom I would make the affected stats Dexterity, Intelligence and Wisdom.
As for weak to moderate stimulants, instead of a bonus to the save, I would have them delay your next check. A weak stimulant can never delay two consecutive checks and a moderate stimulant can never day three consecutive checks. If the stimulant isn't taken during an hour, take a penalty equal to the number of doses to all checks to stay awake.
For a strong stimulant (like cocaine), I would have it improve your current condition by one step, but after the effects wear off you automatically go down two conditions (one lower than your original) and suffer a -2 penalties to all future checks. Multiple doses can be taken, but the penalty to checks stacks and if your final condition would be lower than Blacked Out, you might have to make a Fortitude save or die (you overdose on the drug).
XD The drug idea sounds amusing, though I don't think I'm going to have such a thing in my campaign setting. Would be funny, though. Actually, that's a good idea, delaying the check instead of giving a bonus.
For coffee, for example... perhaps it can delay a single check for..... 4 hours? Not sure though... and yeah, it'd have to be limited, or people would always try and carry coffee around and try to stay awake forever.
|
XD The drug idea sounds amusing, though I don't think I'm going to have such a thing in my campaign setting. Would be funny, though. Actually, that's a good idea, delaying the check instead of giving a bonus.
For coffee, for example... perhaps it can delay a single check for..... 4 hours? Not sure though... and yeah, it'd have to be limited, or people would always try and carry coffee around and try to stay awake forever.
Don't people already do this? ^_^
Coffee, Red Bull, sugar...people consume A LOT of stimulants on a daily basis to "function."
Dunno if this helps at all but I have a character that has a home brew 'insomnia' flaw.
The GM set a DC 15 con check every night or he cannot sleep. First night of no sleep is fatigued all day, second night in a row is exhausted all day. Each consecutive day of sleep reduced the level of 'tiredness' by one. So far I have never gone more than two nights without sleeping so we have not had to come up with more than that.
So far, no magic we possess can 're-energize' the fatigue or exhausted states resulting from this flaw, but we are only level 6.
Yeah, that sounds similar to what I'm trying to go for. The only thing is that I have to come up with a few more technical things about it, because sleep deprivation causes a person to act a bit more differently than simply tired (At least after longer periods of time).
And yeah, I suppose people already do that a lot :P Too much sugar. On that note, I guess I could just say every consecutive use halves the delay. (like, if one dose is 4 hours, a 2nd dose is 2, a 3rd is 1, and a 4th doesn't work at all or something)
|
|
this could work in a slightly modified form. we could classify different stimulants as Mild, Moderate, Strong, Excessive. A mild stimulant would delay the check for an hour, Moderate 2, Strong 3, Excessive 4. Each time you take a stimulant within a 24 hour period, however, your body's tolerance reduces its effectiveness by one step. so using an excessive stimulant would result in (4+3+2+1+0) 10 hours of delay.
I also think using the stimulant should temporarily remove the Fatigued - Staggered conditions, perhaps for half as long as they delay checks.
Hm. possibly. Not sure if that causes there to be too many things to keep track of (Delay, what is and isn't currently afflicting, etc).
I dunno :P It has its charms.
So far, we kind of have the general outline for the conditions (which may or may not be altered at any point), and kind of have rules for when they happen and how they happen, along with some items that may delay the effects... I guess all that's left is to kinda balance and rehash it a bit if needed.
So far, I love how the conditions work. They seem to fit fine and even though they eventually get near-ridiculous, they can EASILY be solved with some rest, even if they only rest for an hour, they can drop the penalties a whole level.
I KINDA look twice at the nonlethal damage, because it both sounds logical to me, AND illogical. Because if you are really worn out, whether or not you kinda get a kick of adrenaline, you may still be really easy to knock out (or at least down). Because there seems to be two kinds of tired. Tired from lack of sleep, and tired from overworking yourself (Which I kind of see being part of it, due to them being heroes/adventurers that go around and fight monsters and stuff). So I am 50/50 on this, especially because it adds another stat to track (if we make it deprivation damage).
I like the idea of things that delay the time before the next check. We also need to flesh out the idea of adrenaline. Should people be able to get rid of the penalties for one combat and then get knocked down to the next step of deprivation afterward?
Also, I was still unsure on the general start of the checks. We so far have it that it's after 20 + Con Mod, but we haven't really taken a look at HOW MUCH SLEEP they need to delay this. If people just have an hour of sleep, should it reset the counter? What about less amounts, like half an hour? Or should it be a higher static amount?
And if we DO want to throw in some form of hallucination, just make them under the effects of the confuse spell once they hit a certain level or something, though that might end up making it way too harsh a penalty.
That's my 2 cents on it at the current momento.
|
|
Yeah, it looks like the nonlethal damage has been our most difficult mechanic to enmesh with the rules. I guess the most important thing to remember here is that when you're trying to make new rules, some concessions in the face of logic have to be made. I mean, I'm pretty certain there's nowhere in the books that says a Horse can't use Climb, but you and I both know that if presented with a tree, there's no way that horse is getting up there on his own. Sometimes logic has to take a backseat for the sake of functionality.
As far as adrenaline goes, it could simply drop the penalties by one level in combat and force a check at the end of combat, regardless of how much time has passed. Being tired and constantly getting into battle is bound to run you into the ground a lot faster than trying to stay up and finish a book.
I would say that only sleep you've gotten in the last 24 hours would delay checks. If you sleep for 1 hour, stay awake for 2, and repeat that all day, you'll never have to make deprivation checks because you've always had 8 hours of sleep in the last 24 hours. If you've been up for 30 hours, sleeping for 1 hour doesn't really do you much good, and truth be told, its often harder to wake up when you're that tired. Maybe when someone tries something like this they have to make a check to try to wake up? That's another element of complexity to these rules, though.
as far as hallucinations go, I want them in so that the 30 Con Barbarian doesn't try to stay up for 48 hours on a regular basis. Maybe a number of hours after you start making checks equal to your (Con? Wis?) mod, you start to see things. So after 40 straight hours, that Barbarian is seeing spiders crawling on his buddy's back and starts swinging to save his life, not realizing that he's pummeling his buddy in the process.
Hahaha. A sleep deprived barbarian sounds like a dangerous companion :P.
Okay, so... should we try and keep the nonlethal in? Or should we ignore it? Or should we keep it in but keep it as just regular nonlethal and not deprivation nonlethal?
Yeah, I suppose that could work for adrenaline. Maybe lower it a step in combat, but with immediate checks afterward. Hm, I guess it does make sense that if you rest at least once an hour, you should be okay. Though I always kinda wonder if there's still something of a limit, or a requirement for how many hours you SHOULD get a day before being completely out of it.
As for the hallucinations, not sure about the best way to go about doing those. Perhaps after they've been awake 20 hours + 3 times con mod, they start seeing hallucinations? Though that doesn't seem like much time before they happen... thoughts?