Hello everyone! (Sorry for posting this again, but it seems like my other post didn't actually... well, post). Lately I've been working on my own campaign setting using the Pathfinder rules, and noticed something; there seems to be absolutely no rules for lack of sleep! There seem to be rules for like... forced marching and the like, but those don't translate over well to lack of sleep (For instance, I don't want lack of sleep being fixable by a simple cure light wounds spell).
So I looked around on forums for a proper answer, and it seems there indeed are no official rules for lack of sleep. Though there is a general consensus on the issue of lacking sleep. It seems that all people, no matter how physically fit, will succumb to lack of sleep at some point. (The example given was army recruits still having sleep deprivation and withdrawal, including hallucinations). The other consensus seemed to be that people will take more hits to the mental faculties before any severe physical damage is sustained. Many also said that people will generally pass out before their bodies will let them die, but can eventually fall into something of a mini-coma to repair the lack of sleep.
People's ideas on how the rules should work also seem to follow a pattern: Many feel that there should be some form of constitution check, with a base DC of 10 that increases with time (with checks being made either daily, or hourly). Others feel that there should be a bonus for having a high constitution score. Many of these ideas included a fatigue penalty as well as an eventual exhaustion penalty.
In the end, I noticed a few ideas I liked, and kind of fused them to come up with something like this:
For every 4 hours of sleep missed, the character gains a -2 penalty to both wisdom and intelligence. When this penalty becomes -4, the character also becomes fatigued. When this penalty becomes -6, the character also becomes exhausted. These penalties can be removed at a rate of 2 per 4 consecutive hours above 4 that are slept (For example, 8 hours of sleep removes 2 points of the penalty, whereas 12 removes 4 points). Once either wisdom or intelligence become 0 due to these penalties, the character passes out and may not be woken up until they have received enough rest to lower the current penalty to at least a -2.
The only real things that come to mind with this, however are things like... how do these rules effect elves? Should the feat Endurance come into play with this? Should I try and include constitution at all? Should the penalties be able to be removed with something along the lines of restoration, or should I make them unable to be removed with a spell, to keep even higher level players aware of their levels of sleep?
Thank you all for your time and attention!
It has been officially stated that elves need to sleep, no more trance :(
When do these penalties start, at 12 hours or 16?
Endurance should cut the penalties in half(-1 per 4 hours missed)
Yeah, that's where my rule idea gets a little jumbled. I am unsure as to when the penalties should actually start taking effect. I was thinking, effectively for it to involve 4 missed hours, a character would have to be awake 20 consecutive hours before the initial -2 kicked in.
Oh! You're right! I just noticed that elf thing... who knew.
Yeah, endurance cutting the penalty from -2 to -1 per 4 hours missed might make it a better choice of feat as well, depending how it plays out.
It hasn't really come into play in my games, but I'd have people making Will saving throws every hour to stay awake once more exhausted than a certain amount.
That said, there are many people who continue to work for long periods of time. Doctors who pull long shifts, long haul truckers, etc. It's quite possible to push through the need for sleep and get a second wind, and there's the old convention adage, "Food equals sleep" which is indeed true--if you are exhausted, some additional calories can give the energy to keep going a little while longer.
That could be done as something like "Consume an iron ration, get a +5 bonus to stay awake."
You could also have alchemical bonuses for stimulants ranging from mild to strong. Coffee might give a +1 or +2.
That is true. Though those bonuses would only apply to if I made anyone make a save... though you did suggest the Will save. Perhaps I could have certain stimulants act as if you had x hours of sleep towards getting rid of the penalties? Like perhaps if there was coffee in the game or some such thing, it could remove 2 hours of sleep from the penalties or something like that.
I don't think I was going to actually put in the hallucinations. It would probably just slow things down or make it weird, though those could definitely be roleplayed in once in a while.
Effectively, wisdom apparently also counts as the character's ability to notice things in his surroundings and whatnot. That works pretty well for spot checks and things that the character would be less able to do when lacking sleep. It's SLIGHTLY easier to do it that way, because if I go about it involving more checks, and other things (Like giving penalties to about 4 different specific situations), it might become more convoluted or complicated for the DM. To be honest though, not sure. There are quite a few ways to go about this.
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I think, the fatigued condition can handle sleep deprivation well, the only question remaining is, how long until you apply it. From my own experience (since four years I work one nightshift a week, continuing the next day at the university without extra sleep before or after the nightshift - one 38h Day, the rest of the week normal day/night ratio), this time varies greatly, depending on the person, the reason of sleep deprovation, even the weather and the daily condition - I'm afraid I can't find a formula that satisfies me.
You have quite a good point there... that's kind of what makes this calculation a hard thing to figure out. It varies quite a lot from person to person, then there's the entire thing with those who are healthier, or those who do more work in a day...
No wonder there was no official rules for this type of thing, huh?
Another Idea is to have it Constitution base, "After a number of hours equal to 2 times your Con score, you become Fatigued (maybe a save to postpone the effects) and after an amount of time equal to 3 times your Con score you become *Exhausted (Save or fall unconscious) Endurance adds 4 to your con score to see how long you can stay awake."
Might be able to do that. And I guess like... 8 full hours of rest resets the number of hours they can stay up for before the fatigue sets in.
As I write this post I am working a 3rd shift Job, any way staying awake is pretty easy for the first 24 hours as long as you have something to do. After that it get harder, so I would start the penalties after 24 + con mod Hours.
As far as the Penalties goes, I thing I would treat it as a blanket -1 penalty to saves, skill check, att, and ability checks. Because after 24 hours every thing starts to get harder, but unless staying awake was really important to the story, I would just you’re the forced march rules, or just give them fatigue and then Exhaustion penalties.
I would also say that you need a full night sleep of at least 6 to 8 hours to remove penalties.
Coffee and other alchemical stimulate could add hours before penalties take effect, but I would have the penalties start are they would with out the stimulate.
If your including traits, you could create one that would treat your Con score as being 2 higher for the purposes of sleep deprivation.
Actually, I like the idea of it not happening until 24 + Con Mod hours. It makes sense, in a way, because generally if you're a bit healthier, you probably can last at least a little bit longer before getting tired (and I have noticed a lot of people say the first 24 hours doesn't usually affect them at much, if at all)
So that takes care of when it would start, which works pretty well, with the possibility of alchemical things, spells, and certain feats or traits extending the period (Perhaps endurance makes their constitution count as 4 higher for the purposes of sleep). Now I just need to think of a proper penalty, or if it should require a save. I didn't really want to used the forced march rules, because subdual damage can be easily healed, and at higher levels, the subdual for it would become almost moot. This only really concerns me for purposes of fatigue and exhaustion, because the fatigue gets removed if the subdual damage is removed.
The way I look at it, the ways of doing it...could be:
1) After the 24 + Con Mod, the character flat out takes the penalty that is only removed after 8 hours of complete rest. This balances it out so constitution only comes into it once, as opposed to those with low con REPEATEDLY getting hit for it.
2) After the 24 + Con Mod, the character makes a save, with something along the lines of... DC 10 + 2 per hour past the 24 + Con Mod, otherwise becoming fatigued, then exhausted after the 2nd fail, and then passing out when failing the third time, only being woken up once they've received a full 12 hours of sleep. (Or, depending, 8 hours for fatigue, 9 for exhaustion).
3) After the 24 + Con Mod hours, the character acts as if under the forced marching rules, where they take 1d6 points of subdual damage per hour staying awake afterward (Or perhaps 1d6 incrimental damage per hour awake past the 24 + Con. Like, 1d6 first hour, 2d6 second hour, etc..) If they take the damage from this, they become fatigued, and if they take the damage again, they become exhausted. Not sure, however, if I want cure spells to repair this as it does the proper forced march effects.
The only real downside to these, is that they don't show the mental fatigue that lack of sleep can really give some people, like the hallucinations and whatnot.
By the way, everyone, thank you for your thoughts and suggestions so far. This is working out pretty well =D Hurray brainstorming!
Hm, so far, I haven't decided 100% on which one to do... was kind of thinking making it that cure spells DO effect it, but the next hour will still be a cumulative number. (And might make it d10 instead of d6, to be a bit more severe) Eventually, no matter how many cures a character gets, they're going to get hit with a full HP bar of subdual and pass out.
Dunno how the level drain rules work in PF, but instead of Fatigue or Exhaustion (which are just physical) you could treat each hour after as a level drain. That makes everything harder to do the longer you're awake. and as the heroes level they are better able to go longer, but going too long still makes them not as effective as they could be.
By the way, I'm glad the topic is here, it's been one of those rules (or lack of) that has stuck in my craw, but just never came up in game.
Dunno how the level drain rules work in PF, but instead of Fatigue or Exhaustion (which are just physical) you could treat each hour after as a level drain. That makes everything harder to do the longer you're awake. and as the heroes level they are better able to go longer, but going too long still makes them not as effective as they could be.
By the way, I'm glad the topic is here, it's been one of those rules (or lack of) that has stuck in my craw, but just never came up in game.
Actually I think the negative level mechanic is excellent to mimic sleep deprivation, though actual level drain wouldnt fit I think, since staying awake shouldnt be level dependent.
24 hours + (con mod * 4) every hour after that make a constitution check DC 15+1 for every consecutive succesful check, failure means the character will gain the fatigued condition and has to save every hour after that to avoid falling asleep unless kept awake.
Every 4 hours the character stays or is kept awake (after 24+ con mod *4) get a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables.(such as spellcasting)
every 12 hours after (24 + con mod*4) the character gets 1 con damage in addition to any other penalties.
(lesser) restoration spells could be used to keep a character awake removing the fatigued condition, though the check DC does not reset and lesser restoration does not remove the penalties giained through lack of sleep.
endurance will give a +4 bonus on the constitution checks.
Actually I think the negative level mechanic is excellent to mimic sleep deprivation, though actual level drain wouldnt fit I think, since staying awake shouldnt be level dependent.
24 hours + (con mod * 4) every hour after that make a constitution check DC 15+1 for every consecutive succesful check, failure means the character will gain the fatigued condition and has to save every hour after that to avoid falling asleep unless kept awake.
Yes, negative level, I just grabbed the wrong term, meant the -1 to all not permanent one. I like your suggestions, I think con mod *4 is a bit high though. Even a medium con of 14 will give another 8 hours before it sets in. I've already seen plenty of times where the non-casters were well and eager enough to continue without giving the Dwarf Bbn an easy 36-40 hours before he feels the effects of sleep dep.
Yes, negative level, I just grabbed the wrong term, meant the -1 to all not permanent one. I like your suggestions, I think con mod *4 is a bit high though. Even a medium con of 14 will give another 8 hours before it sets in. I've already seen plenty of times where the non-casters were well and eager enough to continue without giving the Dwarf Bbn an easy 36-40 hours before he feels the effects of sleep dep.Actually I think the negative level mechanic is excellent to mimic sleep deprivation, though actual level drain wouldnt fit I think, since staying awake shouldnt be level dependent.
24 hours + (con mod * 4) every hour after that make a constitution check DC 15+1 for every consecutive succesful check, failure means the character will gain the fatigued condition and has to save every hour after that to avoid falling asleep unless kept awake.
Well yea, but a con of 14 is not medium, actually it is quite exceptional stamina compared to Joe Average with con 10. I wrote up these rules bearing in mind the common man as well as someone with epic constitution.
Plenty of people skip sleep for 30 + hours, so I think 4*con isn't all that unrealistic.
Actually I think the negative level mechanic is excellent to mimic sleep deprivation, though actual level drain wouldnt fit I think, since staying awake shouldnt be level dependent.
24 hours + (con mod * 4) every hour after that make a constitution check DC 15+1 for every consecutive succesful check, failure means the character will gain the fatigued condition and has to save every hour after that to avoid falling asleep unless kept awake.
Every 4 hours the character stays or is kept awake (after 24+ con mod *4) get a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables.(such as spellcasting)
every 12 hours after (24 + con mod*4) the character gets 1 con damage in addition to any other penalties.
(lesser) restoration spells could be used to keep a character awake removing the fatigued condition, though the check DC does not reset and lesser restoration does not remove the penalties giained through lack of sleep.
endurance will give a +4 bonus on the constitution checks.
I like this suggestion as well, and I'm *very* glad to see something addressing the mechanics of "When Does the Barbarian *Need* To Rest?" (aka "Why Do We Need More Than One Watch Again?").
Thanks!
Yes, negative level, I just grabbed the wrong term, meant the -1 to all not permanent one. I like your suggestions, I think con mod *4 is a bit high though. Even a medium con of 14 will give another 8 hours before it sets in. I've already seen plenty of times where the non-casters were well and eager enough to continue without giving the Dwarf Bbn an easy 36-40 hours before he feels the effects of sleep dep.Actually I think the negative level mechanic is excellent to mimic sleep deprivation, though actual level drain wouldnt fit I think, since staying awake shouldnt be level dependent.
24 hours + (con mod * 4) every hour after that make a constitution check DC 15+1 for every consecutive succesful check, failure means the character will gain the fatigued condition and has to save every hour after that to avoid falling asleep unless kept awake.
hmm well you got a point, I was assuming an otherwise well rested character, not something to do on a daily basis. I'd suggest that if it becomes an issue to keep track how much 'overtime' time added after con bonus time kicks in. Just assume a character needs to sleep more than 8 hours to replenish his rest to be able to pull it off again the next day.
I suppose a day spent doing relatively little can account for this, maybe a typical adventure day will be more tiresome.
replace 24 hours + (con mod * 4) with 16 hours + (con mod * 4) for a bit less heroic heroes, you might use the 24 hours for a character with endurance (effectively raising con by 4 for this purpose).
I think 16 hours is fair enough to prevent abuse and fits with the 8 hour rest per day rule it will be hard on characters with con lower than 10 though.
That may work as well, actually. I think that idea is pretty nifty, though I wanted to try and keep the sleep deprivation rules simple, in the way that I don't have to keep track of x amount of hours after, then y amount of hours after. (Like, the 24 + con x4, then the every 4 hours after, then every 12. Might make it tricky).
Maybe if instead of 24 + Con mod, we did... (20 + Con Mod*2)? Hm, no, that might make it too low, even then... just because then the spell casters would (Well, if it's traditional and people aren't pumping con into their spell casters) probably not be able to stay up longer than 22 hours at Con 12 without making some form of check, or taking some form of penalty. Some people also pointed out that rolls or checks seem kind of unconventional in a sleep deprivation rule, as luck shouldn't enter into it or something. Though I suppose it's not exactly luck, it's your character forcibly trying to stay up under his own power. Not sure though.
That may work as well, actually. I think that idea is pretty nifty, though I wanted to try and keep the sleep deprivation rules simple, in the way that I don't have to keep track of x amount of hours after, then y amount of hours after. (Like, the 24 + con x4, then the every 4 hours after, then every 12. Might make it tricky).
Maybe if instead of 24 + Con mod, we did... (20 + Con Mod*2)? Hm, no, that might make it too low, even then... just because then the spell casters would (Well, if it's traditional and people aren't pumping con into their spell casters) probably not be able to stay up longer than 22 hours at Con 12 without making some form of check, or taking some form of penalty. Some people also pointed out that rolls or checks seem kind of unconventional in a sleep deprivation rule, as luck shouldn't enter into it or something. Though I suppose it's not exactly luck, it's your character forcibly trying to stay up under his own power. Not sure though.
The way I see it, in situations like this the d20 roll isn't limited to "luck" but also/instead stands in for all the various minutia that isn't germane to the playing of D&D but is related to the determination of how long one can stay up (or how well one can do anything, generally) - the d20 roll might account for a tad of luck, as well as the quality of sleep one got the day before, the particular quality and taste of one's dinner, if one got that annoying song stun in one's head again while trying to stay up, etc.
None of this is, or should be, defined in a mechanical sense - the d20 roll subsumes all of that into a general check to determine on a scale of 1 to 20 how optimal the circumstances are that relate to whatever one is attempting. These circumstances sometimes include luck, but don't necessarily have to, at least from my perspective.
It has been officially stated that elves need to sleep, no more trance :(
When do these penalties start, at 12 hours or 16?
Endurance should cut the penalties in half(-1 per 4 hours missed)
False. Pathfinder Companion - Elves of Golarion, page 5.
Sleep
Though elves are immune to magical sleep effects, the
idea that they never rest is a myth. Instead, though
they do not fall unconscious the way other humanoids
do, elves may enter a deep trance that has the same
refreshing effect on the mind as human sleep. An elf
only needs to meditate in this fashion for 4 hours per
day, though some prefer longer periods. During this rest,
an elf performs habitual mental exercises, reviews old
memories, allows his intuition to seek enlightenment,
and so on. Some mischievous elves enjoy perpetuating
the myth that their kind is always awake and elven towns
have no beds; the truth is that while some elves prefer
to meditate in a chair or on a couch, others enjoy the
comfort of an actual bed.
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It has been officially stated that elves need to sleep, no more trance :(
When do these penalties start, at 12 hours or 16?
Endurance should cut the penalties in half(-1 per 4 hours missed)False. Pathfinder Companion - Elves of Golarion, page 5.
Sleep
Though elves are immune to magical sleep effects, the
idea that they never rest is a myth. Instead, though
they do not fall unconscious the way other humanoids
do, elves may enter a deep trance that has the same
refreshing effect on the mind as human sleep. An elf
only needs to meditate in this fashion for 4 hours per
day, though some prefer longer periods. During this rest,
an elf performs habitual mental exercises, reviews old
memories, allows his intuition to seek enlightenment,
and so on. Some mischievous elves enjoy perpetuating
the myth that their kind is always awake and elven towns
have no beds; the truth is that while some elves prefer
to meditate in a chair or on a couch, others enjoy the
comfort of an actual bed.
That book was 3.5 was it not? With the queen having levels in archmage lol...
False. Pathfinder Companion - Elves of Golarion, page 5.
Sleep
Though elves are immune to...
James Jacobs said the following:
This is a great example of false errata, actually. The concept of elves not sleeping is, in fact, a Forgotten Realms campaign-specific thing, one that's sort of virally spread to other campaigns. As a result, we'll be downplaying this facet of elves in Pathfinder RPG products. Elves not sleeping is more on the side of a campaign specific bit of flavor, in any event, so we didn't mention it in the Core Rules. Note that we also don't mention that they DO sleep—that bit of flavor is up to the GM, basically.
The Elves of Golarion book notwithstanding.
Oh? So now the 'elves don't sleep' thing is completely up to the DM? Hm... Not sure how I'll go about that. I might keep the trance thing, as I didn't mind that rule. Kinda thought it was interesting and fits with the immunity to magical sleep effects. I still don't know where that original rule came from.
In Curse of the Crimson, there's a part where the PCs won't be able to sleep for a couple of days. After the first night, the PCs are pretty much automatically Fatigued. Or maybe there's a Con-check or Fort save, I don't remember.
I kind of don't like using non-lethal damage, because then a punch in the face is more likely to knock you out. In reality, if you're sleepy, a punch in the face is more likely to wake you up.
What about this:
You start making Con checks at your usual bedtime. The first failure makes you Fatigued, the second Exhausted, the third Unconscious. Unconsciousness is like the sleep spell where slapping or damage automatically wakes you up.
You make the checks every 4 hours, and the DC goes up by 1 each time. If you fail a check, you are given a pass on the next check, that way you can stay up for at least 16 extra hours even if you fail every check.
At normal bedtime - DC 5 Con check
4 hours later - DC 6 Con check
etc.
What about this:You start making Con checks at your usual bedtime. The first failure makes you Fatigued, the second Exhausted, the third Unconscious. Unconsciousness is like the sleep spell where slapping or damage automatically wakes you up.
You make the checks every 4 hours, and the DC goes up by 1 each time. If you fail a check, you are given a pass on the next check, that way you can stay up for at least 16 extra hours even if you fail every check.
At normal bedtime - DC 5 Con check
4 hours later - DC 6 Con check
etc.Hmm.... I don't really like that thought too much. The 'usual bedtime' thing sorta seems... vague, and almost makes it that once a player sets a time, they can't change it, or that once it's set, then going into a dungeon may already mess them up, without them staying up for longer then 8 hours. On that note, even if you failed every check, wouldn't something worse happen if you failed when exhausted?
Actually, staggered brings an interesting flow to it. Makes it so they first become fatigued, so they can't run, or charge, and takes a -2 penalty, then at the next level, can't run or charge, move only at half speed, and get a -6 penalty to str and dex, and at the final stage, they can't run or charge, move only at half speed, can only take one action, and have a -6 penalty to str and dex. XD Pretty harsh, but can give more time to stay awake if they have to.
Now I just have to find a way to make them actually progress through these stages. Like, time, if they make saves, the DCs, and whatnot.
Yeah, I kinda noticed that... sometimes it doesn't make too much sense, but some people have told stories about staying up for quite a long time. Their bodies EVENTUALLY made it so when they went to sleep, they slept for 15+ hours without waking.
I guess I just need to decide 100% which penalties to use and how to use them... though... hrm. There are quite a few choices to be made from.
So far, I suppose we have agreements that adventurers do more work than regular people do in their average day, so they'd probably get tired sooner than those who stay up for 36+ hours in a row doing assignments and such. Though many would argue that 'They are heroic people, so they shouldn't get tired as easily', the truth is technically that they're normal people doing heroic things, not just straight up heroes. Being a 1st level fighter does not immediately make one more heroic or awesome than any other character (Except maybe commoners or something).
Interesting thread. I'm curious, fearless houserulers, how would these new sleep deprivation rules interact with Diehard?
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Okay, let's work this recovery time business in a way more suited to the game mechanics.
When you're awake, you're fine.
After 20 + Con mod hours, make a DC20 (Will Save? Con Check? Will Save modified by Con?). If successful, every hour make another save, at +1 DC for each previous successful save. Failure slaps you with a modified Fatigued. Failing again gets a modified Exhausted. Failing again gets you a modified Staggered. Failing again gets you a modified Unconscious.
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A fatigued character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum health. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. An exhausted character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 50%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued.
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions), and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A staggered character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 75%). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions. After 1 hour of complete rest, a staggered character becomes exhausted.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. A character that falls unconscious due to sleep deprivation gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his hit points (for a total of 100%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an unconscious character becomes staggered.
Recovery: As per normal (or as outlined above) for each of the conditions. This means that after 11 hours of complete rest, all conditions will be gone, but there will likely be nonlethal damage left over (the lingering effects of sleep deprivation) which can be healed away through magic. Likewise, you could heal away the nonlethal damage as it accrues, but would still have to rest to remove the negative conditions.
These are my thoughts on the matter.
In response to Nyarai, if these were the rules I were using, Diehard would do nothing, as it does nothing when dealing with nonlethal damage. I would, however, allow endurance to apply to sleep deprivation checks.
EDIT: If you want to simulate hallucinations without trying to develop a seperate system for it, just hit them with the effects of a Confusion spell while staggered.
Okay, let's work this recovery time business in a way more suited to the game mechanics.
When you're awake, you're fine.
After 20 + Con mod hours, make a DC20 (Will Save? Con Check? Will Save modified by Con?). If successful, every hour make another save, at +1 DC for each previous successful save. Failure slaps you with a modified Fatigued. Failing again gets a modified Exhausted. Failing again gets you a modified Staggered. Failing again gets you a modified Unconscious.
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A fatigued character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum health. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. An exhausted character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 50%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued.
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions), and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A staggered character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 75%). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions. After 1 hour of complete rest, a staggered character becomes exhausted.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. A character that falls unconscious due to sleep deprivation gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his hit points (for a total of 100%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an unconscious character...
Earlier in the thread, someone observed that nonlethal damage would be inappropriate for Sleep Deprivation effects, as combat would tend to wake one up rather than the opposite. I would suggest that the nonlethal damage be removed and negative levels be substituted in, on some basis, and the caveat that any Strenuous activity after the threshold time period forces an immediate save at it's conclusion against slipping into the next category (simulating the aftereffects of an adrenaline rush). The negative levels would require 24 hours of rest to negate, or the usual magical means, and would represent the lingering effects of the sleep deprivation. I would probably base the number of negative levels on the gap of the missed save, 1 negative level for a difference under 5, and 2 if the save was missed by 5 or more. Also, I'd include a caveat that these negative levels never actually result in death and do not stack with "normal" negative levels gained via necromancy of the undead. Then again, I've been accused of being a wimpy DM.
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Earlier in the thread, someone observed that nonlethal damage would be inappropriate for Sleep Deprivation effects, as combat would tend to wake one up rather than the opposite. I would suggest that the nonlethal damage be removed and negative levels be substituted in, on some basis, and the caveat that any Strenuous activity after the threshold time period forces an immediate save at it's conclusion against slipping into the next category (simulating the aftereffects of an adrenaline rush). The negative levels would require 24 hours of rest to negate, or the usual magical means, and would represent the lingering effects of the sleep deprivation. I would probably base the number of negative levels on the gap of the missed save, 1 negative level for a difference under 5, and 2 if the save was missed by 5 or more. Also, I'd include a caveat that these negative levels never actually result in death and do not stack with "normal" negative levels gained via necromancy of the undead. Then again, I've been accused of being a wimpy DM.
Ah, my eyes must have jumped that part. However, being in combat doesn't actually wake you up any, it only makes you FEEL more awake due to the adrenaline pumping through your system. Once that wears off, you're back to where you started (and often times worse off). Maybe we could add in that this nonlethal damage doesn't apply while in combat? That would enforce keeping track of two seperate sources of nonlethal damage, though...
I'm really wary of the negative levels idea, simply because it sounds so harsh. We could easily apply a stacking -1 to everything until you pass out and I'd be fine with it, but the phrase "negative level" makes my skin crawl and doesn't quite seem appropriate, especially if you get hit with several, rest for 16 hours, and are still incapable of casting your ighest level spells, etc.
Okay, let's work this recovery time business in a way more suited to the game mechanics.
When you're awake, you're fine.
After 20 + Con mod hours, make a DC20 (Will Save? Con Check? Will Save modified by Con?). If successful, every hour make another save, at +1 DC for each previous successful save. Failure slaps you with a modified Fatigued. Failing again gets a modified Exhausted. Failing again gets you a modified Staggered. Failing again gets you a modified Unconscious.
Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A fatigued character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum health. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. An exhausted character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 50%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued.
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions), and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A staggered character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 75%). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions. After 1 hour of complete rest, a staggered character becomes exhausted.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. A character that falls unconscious due to sleep deprivation gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his hit points (for a total of 100%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an unconscious character...
I actually really like how you did it. It seems to be fairly balanced (though the DC seems a LITTLE high, considering that a low level PC probably won't be able to make it...this is mostly in consideration with the conditions subtracting from the sleep dep save.. but it doesn't seem too too harsh), and can be solved with a full night's rest (Except the nonlethal damage, which makes sense to me, considering if you do too much while tired, you're body's going to give out eventually). So I thought I'd tinker with it a LITTLE bit, to balance it out, I think. Opinions are once again welcomed.
Sleep Deprivation:
A creature may stay awake for a number of hours equal to 20 + Constitution Modifier, after which time they must make a DC15 Constitution Check. If successful, the creature can continue for the hour with no negative side effects. Every hour awake after the initial check, the creature must make another save, at +1 DC for each previous successful save. If the creature fails, they become Worn. Failing while Worn causes the creature to become Overtired. Failing while Overtired causes the creature to become Overexerted, and failing again causes the creature to Black Out.
Worn: A worn character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. A worn character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum health. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the worn character to become overtired. After 8 hours of complete rest, worn characters are no longer worn. Worn supersedes Fatigue.
Overtired: An overtired character moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. An overtired character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 50%). After 1 hour of complete rest, an overtired character becomes worn. Overtired supersedes Exhausted.
Overexerted: An overexerted creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions), and takes a –6 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, and any further saves against sleep deprivation. An overexerted character also gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his maximum hit points (for a total of 75%). An overexerted creature can still take swift and immediate actions. After 1 hour of complete rest, an overexerted character becomes overtired. Overexerted supersedes Staggered.
Blacked Out: Blacked Out creatures are knocked out and helpless. A character that blacks out due to sleep deprivation gains nonlethal damage equal to 25% of his hit points (for a total of 100%). After 1 hour of complete rest, a blacked out character becomes overexerted. Unconscious supersedes Blacked Out. (In this case, it's reversed because you can't really sleep out unconsciousness)
Recovery: As per normal (or as outlined above) for each of the conditions. This means that after 11 hours of complete rest, all conditions will be gone, but the nonlethal damage remains (the lingering effects of sleep deprivation) which can be healed away through magic. The conditions do not disappear if the nonlethal damage is removed. The nonlethal damage may also be healed as it accrues, but the conditions remain until the conditions for rest have been met. The Endurance feat adds its bonus to saves to shrug off the effects of sleep deprivation. (Might find a way for Diehard to work into here, but not sure how)
And there you have it. Lowered the initial DC to 15, just because a DC 20 seems a bit high if the conditions themselves already add penalties to this save. This means that at about 4 successful hours, the DC will be at 19 or so.... hm... 24 hours with DC 19 sounds okay. But if that's failed... well, the rest writes it self, they say. The only things I wonder is if any form of magic should remove these conditions, or if the nonlethal should be negated during combat or something. What someone suggested at some point is that perhaps during combat, the conditions should be temporarily negated due to adrenaline, but the creature automatically goes to the next step of sleep deprivation due to overdoing it. The only thing I really need to fix for these purposes then is the nonlethal damage... because as someone said, getting punched in the face would probably wake you up. Would it be balanced if the nonlethal was removed entirely?
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I think, honestly, that we SHOULD have seperate nonlethal damage and deprivation points, it'll be another stat to keep track of, but (unless your DMing style is seriously diabolic) its a stat that will only be used very occasionally.
Deprivation points eliminates the issues with nonlethal damage in combat, which I see as our biggest issue at the moment.
Also, I realized that I forgot to input the clause that when you do fail a save and fall to the next catagory of sleep deprivation, the DC should reset. That would give the average commoner with Con 10 a 55% chance to stay awake that extra hour, 50% for another, etc.
If he rolled really well, he could stay up for a maximum of 33 hours (7 at Awake, 4 at Worn, 1 at Overtired, 1 at Overexerted) before blacking out. Minimum 23.
If we take a level 1 Barbarian with Con 20 and Endurance, his minimum would still be 23 hours, but his maximum would rocket up to 66 hours (15 at Awake, 13 at Worn, 9 at Overtired, 9 at Overexerted) before blacking out, depending on whether or not you'll allow them to rage when making the save.
If you want to keep the DC at where it was before dropping a category, potential for not blacking out drops drastically.
Hmm..... Then should I make the DC start at 20, or should I keep it lower? Just wondering if I really want a barbarian with Con 20 to be able to stay up for 66 hours... Oh, I guess that's only 2.5 days... though no, I'd rather not let them rage pointlessly before a sleep check. Hell, the fact that normally it fatigues you afterward should make them MORE tired XD
Though I suppose the thing with nonlethal is true, but if it effectively goes away during combat and other strenuous activity, is there any point of even having it in to begin with?
Hmm... I guess that would only happen if they once again stayed up for very extended periods of time and re-took the deprivation nonlethal, am I correct?
This house rule has proven tricky to balance and make properly, because it ends up having a variety of additional rules and things to keep track of.... also, varying DCs.... It does seem like we are truly getting somewhere, however, and actually moving forward with this. Any further thoughts or anything on the matter?
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Hmm... I guess that would only happen if they once again stayed up for very extended periods of time and re-took the deprivation nonlethal, am I correct?
This house rule has proven tricky to balance and make properly, because it ends up having a variety of additional rules and things to keep track of.... also, varying DCs.... It does seem like we are truly getting somewhere, however, and actually moving forward with this. Any further thoughts or anything on the matter?
Right. Stay up late. Black out. Rest, but not fully recover. Stay up late again. Black out sooner.
I honestly had never given any thought to sleep deprivation in PF, but I've really enjoyed tweaking a system for it. About the only thing we could add would be hallucinations, but I really don't feel like that should be a static, planned out thing. I think the DM should just start doing little things to make the player feel like their character is maybe going crazy.
That could work. Or if we really wanted someone to tweak something in, just say something like... if your Wisdom falls below 6 due to the effects of the sleep deprivation conditions, you start becoming under the effects of a confusion spell?
Now all that's left to do is kinda finalize this rule... since we've got the outline of a good rule for it.
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I was just thinking about it, and Deprivation Damage could be used for pretty much anything that the body needs, with just a few tweaks. Starvation and dehydration could add to your deprivation damage and your negative conditions. Staying awake for 30 hours is damaging enough if you ARE eating and drinking as much as you should. Staying up for 30 hours without food and drink would rocket you to the bottom a lot faster, and the physical and mental conditions of starvation and dehydration are surprisingly similar to those of sleep deprivation.
We could add in a clause to the Blacked Out effect that states that if any of your deprivation damage came from the effects of starvation/dehydration that you continue to make a save every hour (at the previous -6 penalty). Failure indicates you taking 10% of your maximum health as lethal damage. Or something.
Could do something along those lines. Viking, do you have MSN or anything like that that you wouldn't mind me adding you to? Would be cool to be able to talk in real-time about this, if possible.
Hmm.... I live in Pacific Time.... so we'll see how this works out.