Hi all,
I'm an experienced GM who has just had a group of friends ask me to run them through a game. I don't think they have much experience gaming, and I don't really have time to make up my own AP, so I thought I'd run a published one.
I've got portions of RotRL, Second Darkness, and CotCT. I'd like to run something that is pretty...conventional(?)...something with pretty "old fashioned" encounters...dungeon crawls, etc...
So I'm asking for your opinion on what to run. Thanks!
RotRL is a very "hard mode" AP. It's also conventional. Has some exploration parts, some investigation parts, some very old school parts.
Second Darkness focuses on the drow and the elves in Golarion. It's fairly standard fantasy fare. If your PCs like drow but you think they'll think that Golarion's drow are lame, imo, skip this.
CotCT is a city-based game. First 3 books city, then 1 wilderness, 1 huge dungeon crawl and then back to the city. It's fairly good and has my favorite AP plot. It's my favorite AP.
On a difficulty scale of 1-10, 1 being easy and 10 being really hard, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 8
2D ... 5
CotCT ... 6
On a "cool and interesting" scale of 1-10, 1 being very boring and 10 being interesting all the time, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 6
2D ... 4
CotCT ... 5
On a "roleplaying" scale of 1-10, 1 being bleh and 10 being very compelling, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 6
2D ... 3
CotCT ... 7
But these are all my opinions.
Hope this helps.
RotRL is a very "hard mode" AP. It's also conventional. Has some exploration parts, some investigation parts, some very old school parts.
Second Darkness focuses on the drow and the elves in Golarion. It's fairly standard fantasy fare. If your PCs like drow but you think they'll think that Golarion's drow are lame, imo, skip this.
CotCT is a city-based game. First 3 books city, then 1 wilderness, 1 huge dungeon crawl and then back to the city. It's fairly good and has my favorite AP plot. It's my favorite AP.
On a difficulty scale of 1-10, 1 being easy and 10 being really hard, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 8
2D ... 5
CotCT ... 6On a "cool and interesting" scale of 1-10, 1 being very boring and 10 being interesting all the time, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 6
2D ... 4
CotCT ... 5On a "roleplaying" scale of 1-10, 1 being bleh and 10 being very compelling, I'd rate...
RotRL ... 6
2D ... 3
CotCT ... 7But these are all my opinions.
Hope this helps.
Very helpful!
Ice Titan gave very good considerations and there a very few things to add:
1. Outside motivation
With many gamers it's hard to get them doing what the adventure wants them to do. With a whole path of adventures that build upon one another this is extra important.
Regarding this I would say:
RotRL (+): very straigthforward, it's usually very easy for the GM to get the party to do what is expected next.
CotcT (0): requires some altruistic thinkting here. Your players must want to save the city or else will have problems carying on. Still a predictable goal.
2ndD (-): this is the real problem that I have with this AP. Not only do the PC's not have a clear idea whats up they also only have their own curiosity to motivate them to go on at many occasions. High risk, low profit abound!
2. Easy to present
Same adventure modules don't make it easy on the game as a lot is required (battle maps, handouts...) to present the adventure well.
RotRL (+): this too is very straigthforward. There are very few unusual encounters and only the last part has "open environs" where the players could explore uncharted areas.
CotcT (0): here you often need to prepare some extras as the city is basically a small sandbox and unless you heavily railroad your PC's you will need to prepare sidetrecks for the occasional step to the side.
2ndD (0): just like with CotcT you have a lot of situations where it's not that clear in hwich directions the PC will venture. You need to prepare that if you don't want to railroad. This AP is alos the most "sandboxy" as you are often presented with fairly open environs.
3. Been there done that
Every AP has it's unique moments but how do they rate overall on the unusuality score?
RotRL (0): this has a few encounters that are very unusual and even add a few new rules. A few locales are also exotic but not overly so. My PC's didn't really found this AP to be unusal.
CotcT (-): This is standard play. Not much here is like "never seen". That's not to say it's boring and predictable, far from it, but on the unusuality meter it reads fairly low.
2ndD (+): This is where this AP shines. Going toe to toe with the drow and revealing that background is what's awesome in this AP, if it only was a bit more thought out. Nevertheless this is the AP that will probably stick into memory the most if solely viewed from a setting point of view.
Thanks MicMan!
These are some good points. While I don't want to railroad the players, I don't know how well they'd respond to "sandbox" style gaming since they haven't really done much before.
I'm leaning towards RotRL or maybe CotCT.
If there are any more opinions out there, I'd love to hear them.
Also, what are the negatives to RotRL or CotCT? That might help me make my final decision.
And what about the other APs? How do they compare to the ones we've been talking about?
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Thanks MicMan!
These are some good points. While I don't want to railroad the players, I don't know how well they'd respond to "sandbox" style gaming since they haven't really done much before.
I'm leaning towards RotRL or maybe CotCT.
If there are any more opinions out there, I'd love to hear them.
Also, what are the negatives to RotRL or CotCT? That might help me make my final decision.
And what about the other APs? How do they compare to the ones we've been talking about? [/QUOTE
I know Council of Thieves hasn't been rated the highest among the published AP's but I personally enjoy the hell out of it.
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Given the choice between RotRL and CotCT I would run CotCT. It's the second AP, the authors have better hang of the format and there is more support material (Harrow Deck + Guide to Korvosa). Downsides - it kicks off as an urban AP and then takes you for a long trek into wilderness. Fortunately half of that trek is made up one of the most awesome dungeon crawls in history.
RotRL is great, too, but it doesn't have as many "extras" to back it up and tends to be rather brutal (the end of 2nd adventure, in particular, is TPK waiting to happen).
As for the other APs - SD sucks, LoF is cool if you like Arabian and planar themes, CoT is OK but you have to bear with rather wonky first adventure (on the other hand, the second CoT adventure is probably the best Paizo adventure, ever).
Kingmaker is looking awesome so far, but I reserve my judgement until the last part hits the shelves.
Thanks MicMan!
These are some good points. While I don't want to railroad the players, I don't know how well they'd respond to "sandbox" style gaming since they haven't really done much before.
I'm leaning towards RotRL or maybe CotCT.
If there are any more opinions out there, I'd love to hear them.
Also, what are the negatives to RotRL or CotCT? That might help me make my final decision.
And what about the other APs? How do they compare to the ones we've been talking about?
Pretty "Old Fashioned and Conventional" then RotRL would be the way to go. It is, however, a very brutal "meat grinder" as Gorbacz correctly points out.
I am not allowed (by the spousal unit) to read anything about the Legacy of Fire, so I really cannot comment.
These two APs have the advantage of already being converted to Pathfinder.
Kingmaker is a new frontier in more ways then one. In addition ot being fairly open ended, you and the players will have a whole additional level of paperwork with the management of their barony, then duchy, and eventually small kingdom.
Council of Theives, while fairly straight forward, has to have characters that want to participate in the Adventure Path. Else, it is very easy for them to take it off the rails. Also there is a "risk" that the players may want to continue beyond the AP, into epic levels and starting a Chelaxian civil war - humans may be okay with this, but some of the longer lived races will still have fresh memmories of the last civil war.
I played in Rise of the Runelords and finished. I am having my last session DM'ing COTCT this Tuesday night! Playing in Kingmaker (in first AP), playing in LOF (in 4th AP).
As you can imagine I have a good feel for these AP's. My Advice, stay away from Council of Thieves. Rise, Crimson, and Legacy are great, each in their own rights.
All 3 have standard fare and all 3 have good areas you can customize. If you can think about what your players and you would get excited about I would lean towards that choice, the 3 I mentioned are all very strong.
For "old fashioned" then it's RotRL hands-down. Which isn't to say it's all-been-done-before or boring (far from it), but it smells and feels of "classic" (or, classic done dark). You also mentioned a slight aversion to sandbox, and it's pretty straightforward.
The only disclaimer on this one is that it's tone can get pretty macabre at times. Borderline slasherflick or horrorfilm.
I'm also going to throw my hat in for Legacy of Fire. It's not as classic (strong Arabian theme, with some planar stuff) but it's really well done. It's very straightforward (possibly the most railroaded of all the APs).
This one is not dark. Very heoric/legendary. Your PCs will feel like they're doing epic-level stuff once they're level 3 ;-)
Both of those modules have two long dungeon crawls each, with the rest of it being short encounter areas, getting to know NPCs/roleplay, and some tough tactical encounters (seiging fortresses, retaking cities, etc).
The other APs are great too, but these I recommend most strongly. (oh, and Kingmaker, but that's *VERY* sandboxy so I'll leave it out of this list)
Legacy sounds fun, but I'd rather keep to conventional Sword and Sorcery stuff at this point.
reading about the "macabre" aspect of some of the RotRL stuff and that has me a little skittish. I know I can handle it, and most of the group could too, but one of the members is a little young, so I'd have to check it out before I decide on that one.
reading about the "macabre" aspect of some of the RotRL stuff and that has me a little skittish. I know I can handle it, and most of the group could too, but one of the members is a little young, so I'd have to check it out before I decide on that one.
That's a good plan. There are some VERY dark moments in RotRL. The second and third books in particular.
That's a good plan. There are some VERY dark moments in RotRL. The second and third books in particular.
reading about the "macabre" aspect of some of the RotRL stuff and that has me a little skittish. I know I can handle it, and most of the group could too, but one of the members is a little young, so I'd have to check it out before I decide on that one.
Unfortunately, they are also very hard to remove. I mean, of course any GM, with sufficient time, can rewrite anything. But in this case, it would take a LOT of work, as some of the darkest parts are pretty core to the plotline and events.
And dammit, I have never flet so inspired to be a HERO as when playing RotRL. When the night is darkest, the light shines the brightest.
And despite the macabre, it really is classic besides. Just that the monsters are not "cute goblins" and "funny ogres" but they truly are MONSTERS.
If you're down on RotRL and LoF, then I'd say probably go with CotCT. Or wait for the next AP due out in a month: Serpent's Skull. It should be right up your group's alley.
I guess that was going to be my option..."changing" the macabre stuff.
I have part 4 and 6 of RotRL and really like what I've read, but I don't think the really dark elements can be played as is with my group.
Can someone maybe give me some details about what kind of macabre stuff I'd be looking at? Maybe that would give me a better idea. I know I read something about a group of killers who use the seven deadly sins as their M.O. (I can only imagine what Lust would be) and inbred ogres.
Thanks again for all the help everyone, it's greatly appreciated!
In RotRL there are some pretty throrough descriptions about the villains and what they do to themselves as well as to others.
Some encounters are full of grim details (think pets with chopped off feets to prevent them from running away) or obviously maimed and insane or pitiful antagonists.
I mean your opponents are evil, no doubt about that. It should be realistic that these do awful and horrible things, but in most adventures these are glossed over - not so in RotRL.
However that can EASILY be fixed by simply excluding the details!
So if you are used to read aloud the "boxed text" then you need to do some editing - but not really that much.
But if even a "glossed over" sentence like "they killed all the inhabitants and tossed the corpses in this room" is too much for your parties younger members taste, then RotRL is definetely not for you.
Thanks, MicMan, I think I'll be able to run RotRL by just editing the box text. I don't typically read those word for word anyway.
3. Been there done that
Every AP has it's unique moments but how do they rate overall on the unusuality score?RotRL (0): this has a few encounters that are very unusual and even add a few new rules. A few locales are also exotic but not overly so. My PC's didn't really found this AP to be unusal.
I'm going to disagree with your point here.
Sure the names are still the same (Goblins, Ogres, etc).
But the feel of them are completely different, at least for me.
For my group the module turned goblins from fodder into something to actually be worried about at lower levels, and ogres from dumb brutes into cunning killers, that happen to have short attention spans when not threatened.
Thanks, MicMan, I think I'll be able to run RotRL by just editing the box text. I don't typically read those word for word anyway.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree. That's not sufficient at all. RotRL is not just "oo, that looks gross" but fundamentally is about a Disney villian with a lot of blood. The foes you face in the series are evil in an endemic way that moves the story.
RotRL cannot be "cleaned up" just by censoring the boxtext. Book 2 is *about* serial killers and the awful things they do. *What* they are doing is key to the investigation and plot. The amount of changing required here would be akin to simply running another module in its place.
Book 3 is even more macabre (I've never felt quesy in a RPG before), but you might have a little more luck censoring it. You'll have to change the villians MOs and setup, and basically rewrite the middle 1/3 of the book, but with a few hour's work, it's doable.
Books 1, and 4-6 can probably just be censored by not reading certain boxtexts aloud. But you can't extract it from 2&3. That's just what RotRL is, sorry to say.
RotRL cannot be "cleaned up" just by censoring the boxtext.
Completely agree with Erik here. A lot of the really mature content is ingrained with the story line of the modules. I think that to clean that up would mean to lose a lot of what makes RotRL good in the first place. Is Kingmaker an option for you?
While I LOVE what I've read of Kingmaker, I'd rather have something less..."sandboxy" at first, since these players are new to gaming. I want to see what they like and how they play before trying something like Kingmaker.
I haven't heard of Savage Tide but I see it's available in Dungeon magazine. The Paizo site is missing a few issues...how hard would it be to get my hands on it?
Thanks again everybody!
I really Like 2nd Darkness if you read its solid it just has some extra spots that need to be filled in here and there
If you are going to play it Pathfinder I have a thread in Second Darkness that converts it all from 3.5 to Pathfinder and adds a few kicks to it
I have a couple installments of 2nd Darkness and, while there's nothing wrong with it, it just isn't for me.
First of all, I'm not a huge fan of the Drow, and I want something more classic than fantasy meets aliens.
DnD 3.5 Adventure Paths:
1) Shackled City (Dungeon 97 thru 108, or a hardcover)
2) Age of Worms (Dungeon 124 thru 135)
3) Savage Tide (Dungeon 139 thru 150)
4) Rise of the Runelords
5) Curse of the Crimson Throne
6) Second Darkness
7) Legacy of Fire
PFRPG Adventure Paths
1) Council of Thieves
2) Kingmaker
I hated Second Darkness and Council of Thieves.
Rise of the Runelords and Shackled City are the more "traditional" dungeon crawl, old style adventures. Only problem is by the end of both of them, my guys (I am DM) got into "Kill it and get this over with mode".
Age of Worms and Savage Tide, I never ran, but they are a good read and should be good to run with new players.
Curse of the Crimson Throne - read comments above, they are right on.
Legacy of Fire, while more "Arabian" in nature is still a very good Adventure Path. I am running that one currently and my guys really like it.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Wow, thanks so much for that comprehensive list!
I think I'll pick up the Shackled City hardcover, since it sounds exactly what I'm looking for. Traditional but fun. A good way to see how the players do before I move on to more "sandboxy" type stuff.
Thanks again!