Not necessarily. A paladin MUST be lawful good. Lying is chaotic. To an extreme definition, if you at all lie, you're not lawful. Therefore you're at best Neutral Good, which unfortunately, a paladin cannot be.
It does, in fact, make sense.
Bending the truth, however, or stretched interpretations of what was stated aren't really lying, so if you can justify it a-la-Tasselhoff, you're probably ok.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
It says you have to be LG, but doesn't say you lose abilities for neutral or non-lawful actions - only evil.
Im sorry but could you explain this "endless falling place" that you mentioned?
Well... without saying too much, it's sort of an endless loop, where you keep coming back to the same point... Did that make sense?
Okay...
The other night we had a blast running through the Asmodean Knot in the CoT AP.I'll try to avoid spoilers...
But after the party captured an adversary ** spoiler omitted ** They promised to let her go if she told them all she knew, or some such... Before that they had her tied her up securely. After that they dumped her in an endless falling place (you know what I mean if you've been there) so they could go back and retrieve her once they were done with the place. This they did twice, catching her the first time with an air elementals whirlwind...
But twice the paladin accepted this treatment of their captive, and he even dumped her in the hole as far as I recall...
I even stressed the point after they retrieved her the first time how she was suffering from the treatment...
And I think they are planning on letting her go, but they might still surprise me...
Now what would happen to a Paladin in your games doing a thing like this...? I might be really tempted at letting him loose his paladin-hood, but is that too harsh?
Any comments to help a fellow gamer is more than welcome... ;)
I think the treatment the paladin allowed and encouraged should cause him to lose his powers until he atones, or proves that he is no longer a moral idiot to his god. It's clear that throwing someone into a bottomless pit would be a bad thing and I can't imagine that the paladin or anyone in the party did not have the resources to restrain a person.
Just a quick question. She's flying down this hole at terminal velocity, i am assuming it is not very wide, if this is the case and she spins out hitting the wall shouldn't she be taking the damage (say we half it since there isn't a sudden stop) from hitting a solid object while falling? 500 ft/round for even 10 rounds is 5000 ft/minute 500d6 of dmg - 1d6 (for the first 10 ft) cut in half 249d6 of dmg if she hits a wall.
If she was left floating in this pit area that's one thing but endlessly falling is very different from floating.
If she was left floating in this pit area that's one thing but endlessly falling is very...
Windy? So she's trapped, AND her hair is mussed? Truly, this is the act of a cruel and soulless man.
Not necessarily. A paladin MUST be lawful good. Lying is chaotic. To an extreme definition, if you at all lie, you're not lawful. Therefore you're at best Neutral Good, which unfortunately, a paladin cannot be.
It does, in fact, make sense.
Bending the truth, however, or stretched interpretations of what was stated aren't really lying, so if you can justify it a-la-Tasselhoff, you're probably ok.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
It says you have to be LG, but doesn't say you lose abilities for neutral or non-lawful actions - only evil.
Actually right below that under ex-paladins it states that if the paladin willfully commits an act that breaks his code of conduct he loses all paladin abilities and spells too.
So actually yes paladins have to strictly follow their code and willfully breaking the code (ie acting without honor) causes them to automatically lose their powers.
Of course this all comes down to perception of what falls outside of the code of conduct for a paladin.
If she was left floating in this pit area that's one thing but endlessly falling is very...Windy? So she's trapped, AND her hair is mussed? Truly, this is the act of a cruel and soulless man.
Oh i thought this was a pit that she was endlessly falling in and not a tube filled with air that she's floating in.
If it had been an endless falling, then when she hit the (stone?) wall at 190+ km/h she'd just become a nice smear over 200 ft of repeating wall.
Actually right below that under ex-paladins it states that if the paladin willfully commits an act that breaks his code of conduct he loses all paladin abilities and spells too.
So actually yes paladins have to strictly follow their code and willfully breaking the code (ie acting without honor) causes them to automatically lose their powers.
Of course this all comes down to perception of what falls outside of the code of conduct for a paladin.
Great point - I didn't immediately tie respecting authority to that, but it's in there, too. So is "punish those who harm or threaten innocents." But that was brought up, too. I will grant you that a pally can't lie, by that def.
My main point is this: If it isn't outright evil, or as you point out - dishonorable, the the DM should either force a more difficult moral dilemma, or let it fall into the gray.
Putting someone into what amounts to a windy cell doesn't appear to be universally accepted as evil or dishonorable.
If a DM punished me for trying to restrain captives, I would feel like I had no alternative than to kill every opponent, every time.
"Well, you've answered our questions, and for that, we will grant you the honor of warriors death." SHANK
Honesty is there
Honor is at least paid lip service
and the guilty are punished
Or maybe the prisoner can just deal with the wind for a while.
Stuff..Great point - I didn't immediately tie respecting authority to that, but it's in there, too. So is "punish those who harm or threaten innocents." But that was brought up, too. I will grant you that a pally can't lie, by that def.
My main point is this: If it isn't outright evil, or as you point out - dishonorable, the the DM should either force a more difficult moral dilemma, or let it fall into the gray.
Putting someone into what amounts to a windy cell doesn't appear to be universally accepted as evil or dishonorable.
If a DM punished me for trying to restrain captives, I would feel like I had no alternative than to kill every opponent, every time.
"Well, you've answered our questions, and for that, we will grant you the honor of warriors death." SHANK
Honesty is there
Honor is at least paid lip service
and the guilty are punishedOr maybe the prisoner can just deal with the wind for a while.
I agree that paladin players should not feel they are walking on egg-shells every time they have an encounter and fear losing their abilities.
Really it comes down to clear definitions of the law the paladin follows. Does everyone deserve a trial? How are prisoners treated in this region? Players and the DM should decide on what is considered fair treatment and what the guidelines a paladin needs to follow.
After these are established and the player chooses to have the paladin break those guidelines, the powers should be taken away as those are the consequences.
That being said obviously not everything can be written out in stone either. But if the DM is looking at you in the eye and stating the NPC is in a lot of distress because of your actions, I think it would be pretty clear your character should be trying to figure out a new solution.
If that happens every session then maybe the DM and the player should sit down to find common ground where both sides can express concerns before someone loses a character/player due to missunderstandings.
I totally agree. Expectations need to be laid out ahead of time, if you expect a player to act accordingly.
Paladins are expected to follow a code of black and white in a world of grays. If a DM expects a player to walk on eggshells, they should know that when they roll their character.
But if the incident, such as the topic offered by the OP isn't black and white, the consequences shouldn't be, either.
And of course, I wasn't there, so there may be a lot of context clues of which I am unaware - it's just my opinion of what I've read here.
Wouldn't endlessly falling cause you to eventually pick up speeds where you can't breath?
Look, being evil and cutting a deal doesn't get you 3 square meals a day and cable television. It doesn't sound like the falling was that much worse than a night in a cold dungeon, and it was the safest place the party could put them. You do NOT walk around a dungeon with a prisoner. 1) they can escape and turn on you 2) they can be freed and turn on you 3) They can be blown up by a fireball tossed at your head while bound helpless