Disappointed in Lovecraft, but Martin is Awesome


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I'm halfway through the best of Lovecraft, and I'm a bit disappointed. I think the two biggest reasons are:

He's a good writer, but things that he thought were scary just aren't to an educated mind. For example, "more heinous than the blackest voodoo ritual" doesn't mean much to anyone who knows that voodoo is just another religion, no more sinister than the next.

Also, most of his stories seem to be based on the premise of some supernaturally sinister phenomenon that's somehow escaped the notice of the wider world. For example, Whisperer in the Dark is about a sinister group of extraterrestrials who have existed in the Vermont mountains before Cthulhu came. They leave physical evidence of their existence, and an old lone redneck proves their existence with nothing more than a tape recorder. And yet the wider world knows nothing of these aliens, or scoffs at the idea of their existence, which is absurd. Sure, scientists tend to be a skeptical bunch, but if there's something to be discovered, one of them will document it sooner or later. And if it's as obvious as aliens running around Vermont, it'll be documented sooner rather than later.

(That second issue isn't unique to Lovecraft; in fact I realized it while watching Stardust.)

In other news, George RR Martin is freakin' awesome. Dark and gritty, but I just couldn't stop turning pages! The Song of Ice and Fire is on my top ten list along with LotR, Harry Potter and Wheel of Time.


You have to remember when HPL wrote. When he wrote, those were frightening ideas. A majority of what he wrote were things men were not meant to know. and to know that was to die or lose your mind. To me, that is still a frightening idea.

Dark Archive

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I'm halfway through the best of Lovecraft, and I'm a bit disappointed. I think the two biggest reasons are:

He's a good writer, but things that he thought were scary just aren't to an educated mind. For example, "more heinous than the blackest voodoo ritual" doesn't mean much to anyone who knows that voodoo is just another religion, no more sinister than the next.

I think you're taking that statement a little too literally. Lovecraft is pretty clearly riffing off the connotations that voodoo inspire (and yes he is being stereotypical).

Tequila Sunrise wrote:


Also, most of his stories seem to be based on the premise of some supernaturally sinister phenomenon that's somehow escaped the notice of the wider world. For example, Whisperer in the Dark is about a sinister group of extraterrestrials who have existed in the Vermont mountains before Cthulhu came. They leave physical evidence of their existence, and an old lone redneck proves their existence with nothing more than a tape recorder. And yet the wider world knows nothing of these aliens, or scoffs at the idea of their existence, which is absurd. Sure, scientists tend to be a skeptical bunch, but if there's something to be discovered, one of them will document it sooner or later. And if it's as obvious as aliens running around Vermont, it'll be documented sooner rather than later.

I'm just going to chalk this one up to an issue around suspension of disbelief. While I admit that today the premise of scientists completely missing such widespread evidence of pre-human inhabitation of the Earth is perhaps a bit harder to swallow, in the 1920s this would've been more credible to Lovecraft's audience. At the same point Lovecraft was writing for the pulps. Strict verisimilitude wasn't what they were known for.

However, I would add, on these grounds then you might as well chuck out Verne, Wells, Poe's sci-fi, a good amount of Bradbury, Asimov and well the list goes on. I'm sure that fifty years from now SF being written today will hold similar issues.
For my two cp, are Lovecraft's ideas and stories gripping on their own? If you say yes, then just enjoy the ride.

Tequila Sunrise wrote:


In other news, George RR Martin is freakin' awesome. Dark and gritty, but I just couldn't stop turning pages! The Song of Ice and Fire is on my top ten list along with LotR, Harry Potter and Wheel of Time.

Well I enjoyed the series so far, until the nagging feeling arose that Martin has no idea how to resolve this series. I could be wrong but the huge wait for the next book(s) seems to indicate he may have realized that. Granted it might just be my growing annoyance with overly long fantasy series (seriously do you really need 8 books to tell your story?!)


Interestingly, Martin is a big Lovecraft fan, although he's never really done a book in that vein, which is odd as he's written in almost every other SFF subgenre.


Like most authors from the 20's you have to get into a archaic WASPish viewpoint to get the most out of his books.

I would recomend Brian Lumly for modern Lovecraft-esque books.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
George RR Martin...

The man needs an editor.

There, I said it.


J.R. Farrington, Esq. wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
George RR Martin...

The man needs an editor.

There, I said it.

You MADMAN!!!!!!

Hey, Tequila, what's up?

The Exchange

GRRM is gonna pull a Jordan on us, just watch. I mean look at him, he isn't in the nest of shape or anything.

And On the series.... I honestly believe he lost his passion and love for the world he created. I think the fire died and now he is scrambling like crazy to reclaim it.


Jean Tannen wrote:

GRRM is gonna pull a Jordan on us, just watch. I mean look at him, he isn't in the nest of shape or anything.

And On the series.... I honestly believe he lost his passion and love for the world he created. I think the fire died and now he is scrambling like crazy to reclaim it.

A valid fear. Was just talking about this with a friend of mine the other day. I think he'll wrap it up in two-three books at most, with the last one told on fast-forward.


Freehold DM wrote:
Jean Tannen wrote:

GRRM is gonna pull a Jordan on us, just watch. I mean look at him, he isn't in the nest of shape or anything.

And On the series.... I honestly believe he lost his passion and love for the world he created. I think the fire died and now he is scrambling like crazy to reclaim it.

A valid fear. Was just talking about this with a friend of mine the other day. I think he'll wrap it up in two-three books at most, with the last one told on fast-forward.

If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.


If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.

I firmly believe old George is starting to enjoy the life his success has brought. Look at his blog and he is always attending some kind of conference, seminar or promotional thing. After all, it took him nearly 40 years to become an overnight success, why not suck up his good life in the twilight years?

Will he finish the series? Probably not, but he did gave us some of the best fantasy writing and I can't knock him for that. And now a probable smash hit in a TV series.


B_Wiklund wrote:
For my two cp, are Lovecraft's ideas and stories gripping on their own? If you say yes, then just enjoy the ride.

For all my disappointment, Lovecraft is far from bad. I enjoy his stuff, especially stories like Pikman's Model that diverge a bit from his standard procedure. I also like the little Boo! finales that always end his shorts.

I guess Lovecraft for me is like Casa Blanca; I appreciate it and I see how it was a big deal back in the day, but it ultimately falls short of its hype.

Freehold DM wrote:
Hey, Tequila, what's up?

Other than my new more-than-full-time job and this thread...not much. :(

I'm guessing you're not at Dexcon either?

Black Dougal wrote:


If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.

Me, I'm quite happy with perfectionist authors. I'd rather read one great book than a dozen poor books. I also don't mind series that never end; endings are all too often disappointing anyway. The way I see it, life is a never ending story, so why should a book story end?

I'm waiting with baited breath for a snappy answer to that question. ;)


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
B_Wiklund wrote:
For my two cp, are Lovecraft's ideas and stories gripping on their own? If you say yes, then just enjoy the ride.

For all my disappointment, Lovecraft is far from bad. I enjoy his stuff, especially stories like Pikman's Model that diverge a bit from his standard procedure. I also like the little Boo! finales that always end his shorts.

I guess Lovecraft for me is like Casa Blanca; I appreciate it and I see how it was a big deal back in the day, but it ultimately falls short of its hype.

Okay. That makes a lot more sense than your original post.

The Exchange

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I'm halfway through the best of Lovecraft, and I'm a bit disappointed. I think the two biggest reasons are:

He's a good writer, but things that he thought were scary just aren't to an educated mind. For example, "more heinous than the blackest voodoo ritual" doesn't mean much to anyone who knows that voodoo is just another religion, no more sinister than the next.

Also, most of his stories seem to be based on the premise of some supernaturally sinister phenomenon that's somehow escaped the notice of the wider world. For example, Whisperer in the Dark is about a sinister group of extraterrestrials who have existed in the Vermont mountains before Cthulhu came. They leave physical evidence of their existence, and an old lone redneck proves their existence with nothing more than a tape recorder. And yet the wider world knows nothing of these aliens, or scoffs at the idea of their existence, which is absurd. Sure, scientists tend to be a skeptical bunch, but if there's something to be discovered, one of them will document it sooner or later. And if it's as obvious as aliens running around Vermont, it'll be documented sooner rather than later.

(That second issue isn't unique to Lovecraft; in fact I realized it while watching Stardust.)

In other news, George RR Martin is freakin' awesome. Dark and gritty, but I just couldn't stop turning pages! The Song of Ice and Fire is on my top ten list along with LotR, Harry Potter and Wheel of Time.

But he hits apon the very concepts that make it scary. In Mountains of Madness, we begin with the teller of the Tale located in the Base Camp. He is in communication with Site B. Site B has made a massive Discovery. Something Incredible and samples have been collected and the Lead scientist is disecting one of the Samples. THen they lose contact with Site B.

When they go out to site B they find that the 'samples' collected are the bodies of expedition members and the Lead Scientist has vanished after disecting the team leader.

They could have ended it right there. It would have been terrifying. The Ultimate Cliff hanger. The idea that it all went horribly wrong and there is no reason for it. No explantation for it. The only survivor vanished into some deep network of caves. Deep down Its not a riddle you want to know the answer to.

They didnt even need to go on their plane flight over the mountains onto the Plateau of Leng and discover the ancient city, and the history of the Ancient ones, and the Giant Penguins and the Creature from the Pit.

The Exchange

To understant what that Mountains of Madness style inspires in terror...consider a modern War Story: I'll write the Basic shape of it.

The War on Terror
A US Army unit is sent in to investigate some caves where Osama Bin Laden is hold up. They get there and the senior Officer radios back that they have Killed a Number of AlQuaeda and Interrogated a few of them for intel, and that Osama bin laden is deep in the Cave network heading for the other exit - THey are awaiting Retrieval of personel and the bodies.

Then they loose contact with the Commander.

When the second team gets there, they find that All the Soldiers are Dead and the Team leader is missing. They find that they have all been killed by friendly fire, a few have been black baged and tortured to death as though they were Alquaeda Terrorists with vital intel. The Commander is Missing...his trail vanishes into the Caves that seem to go deep into the Mountain.

See the terror that would inspire? That everything that took Place on site was communicated to you over the Radio but the reality is a distorted truth.

On a larger scale it would be like going into Afghanistan to evaluate the success of the War on Terror and finding nothing but US bodies. No Muslim terrorists anywhere. All the Evidence poins to friendly fire, THousnads of people turning on each other in some insane one sided war...

Shadow Lodge

Xabulba wrote:
I would recomend Brian Lumly for modern Lovecraft-esque books.

I couldn't disagree more. Lumley isn't really "Lovecraft-esque" at all. His stories (at least the ones I have read) are about humanity triumphing over the entities of the Mythos, which are actively seeking to harm them.

In Lovecraft's Mythos, none of the entities other than Nyarlathotep really have any malevolent tendencies towards humanity. If you happen to step on a few ants while you are crossing the street, is it because you are a vile persecutor of ants, or is it because the ants were simply beneath your notice?

I won't even go into the fact that he gave all of the Great Old Ones good twins.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
B_Wiklund wrote:
For my two cp, are Lovecraft's ideas and stories gripping on their own? If you say yes, then just enjoy the ride.

For all my disappointment, Lovecraft is far from bad. I enjoy his stuff, especially stories like Pikman's Model that diverge a bit from his standard procedure. I also like the little Boo! finales that always end his shorts.

I guess Lovecraft for me is like Casa Blanca; I appreciate it and I see how it was a big deal back in the day, but it ultimately falls short of its hype.

Freehold DM wrote:
Hey, Tequila, what's up?

Other than my new more-than-full-time job and this thread...not much. :(

I'm guessing you're not at Dexcon either?

Black Dougal wrote:


If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.

Me, I'm quite happy with perfectionist authors. I'd rather read one great book than a dozen poor books. I also don't mind series that never end; endings are all too often disappointing anyway. The way I see it, life is a never ending story, so why should a book story end?

I'm waiting with baited breath for a snappy answer to that question. ;)

It's damn good to see you post.

No, not at Dexcon- I'm actually upset I missed it this year. I'm getting all my con out at Otakon and NYAF/NYCC this year. Look for the guy with underwear on his head...again!

The Exchange

Lovecraft I enjoy for his diction, his style, and the way he really took Edgar Allan Poe to heart about "the unity of effect" (although he falls short of Poe in that respect, but TONS of authors do that!)

His xenophobia, like Earnest Hemmingway's anti-semitism, is something I just put up with while I appreciate the writer's technical mastery. They are not authors I find "agreeable," but as a writer and student of history I learn a lot from their texts, about how to write and about how people once thought.

I am waiting for Martin to finish his series before I start reading it, because I'd get too annoyed waiting for the next book, and by the time I got it, I'd have forgotten what was in the last one.

Dark Archive

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Me, I'm quite happy with perfectionist authors. I'd rather read one great book than a dozen poor books. I also don't mind series that never end; endings are all too often disappointing anyway.

So much agreement there. Some of my all time favorite authors have utterly failed on the follow-through. I like David Brin, I like Peter Hamilton, I can sometimes tolerate William Gibson, but none of them can end a story for a damn. Weak limp-ass anti-climactic twaddle!

Endings are part of the literary construct, but, as you say, nothing ever really ends. Authors that devote too much energy to wrapping up a story, like that godawful final 10 minutes of the last Star Wars movie, annoy the crap out of me. So painfully artificial and self-referential! How can I be sucked into the story if the author is slapping me in the face with literary conventions and reminding me that this is just a story?

The Exchange

@ Set: The author of Neuromancer William Gibson? I have that on my "to read" list but I don't want to be disappointed. Is it still worth reading?

Edit: How can they "wrap up" the Star Wars prequels, when they're prequels?

Dark Archive

Zeugma wrote:

@ Set: The author of Neuromancer William Gibson? I have that on my "to read" list but I don't want to be disappointed. Is it still worth reading?

Edit: How can they "wrap up" the Star Wars prequels, when they're prequels?

Neuromancer is a great read. Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive, eh not so much.

Virtual Light again another good one. Don't bother with the two other books that follow.

Spook Country. While not blow me away good also stands out.

Gibson's short stories (collected in Burning Chrome) are probably his best stuff.

The Exchange

Thanks, B Wiklund! I am just going to start with Neuromancer but if I really love it and and want to read more it is nice to have an expert recommend the good ones and steer me away from the not-so-great.

The Exchange

Zeugma wrote:

Lovecraft I enjoy for his diction, his style, and the way he really took Edgar Allan Poe to heart about "the unity of effect" (although he falls short of Poe in that respect, but TONS of authors do that!)

His xenophobia, like Earnest Hemmingway's anti-semitism, is something I just put up with while I appreciate the writer's technical mastery. They are not authors I find "agreeable," but as a writer and student of history I learn a lot from their texts, about how to write and about how people once thought.

I am waiting for Martin to finish his series before I start reading it, because I'd get too annoyed waiting for the next book, and by the time I got it, I'd have forgotten what was in the last one.

You should try Out of the Silence, by Erle Cox (1920). There is something scary there that I find in Lovecraft.

Dark Archive

Zeugma wrote:
@ Set: The author of Neuromancer William Gibson? I have that on my "to read" list but I don't want to be disappointed. Is it still worth reading?

He's okay, if you ignore the crazy, crazy hype he gets. His most memorable character (Molly, IMO) is in Neuromancer, although I think I like the Billy Idol album Neuromancer that he inspired better than his writing. :)

Idoru was a terribly frustrating book. It had a ton of plot points that flowed towards a logical conclusion, and at the last moment he swerved and avoided the big impressive finish as said, 'Yeah, it was nothing. No plot. The end.'

So frustrating, like when your dad says, 'We're going to Disneyland!' and you drive for hours across the country and in mid-Arizona he abandons you at a gas station and drives off, never to be seen again.

I've read hundreds and hundreds of books. (Hell, I've read hundreds of Star Trek novels and Louis L'amour style westerns, which are mind-candy at best.) Few of them left me feeling like the author had taken five dollars out of my hand, slapped me and walked away.

[Although the last Harry Potter book joins that list. Rowlings dropped hints throughout her first three books how it was going to end, and then changed her mind, I guess, since she realized that she was now richer than the Queen of England and didn't really need to tie up all those loose ends...]

Quote:
Edit: How can they "wrap up" the Star Wars prequels, when they're prequels?

With 10 minutes of self-referential crap, that's how!


J.R. Farrington, Esq. wrote:

The man needs an editor.

There, I said it.

He has several editors.

Laymen need to understand the relationship between editor and author is not the same as between a boss and his employee. Once a publisher signs up a book, that book is going to be published and an editor's ability to order the author around is limited. In most cases all an editor can do is advise, and if an author ignores him there's nothing they can do about it, unless they refuse to publish the book and then lay themselves open to legal action from the author.

Terry Goodkind had an editor, but famously declared that he never once listened to any advice given to him by his editor in writing his books ("Let's drop the evil chicken because it is, and let's be honest, retarded." "NO!" "Okay,"). This is why his books are unmitigated garbage. Since they sell anyway, the publisher doesn't really care.

Martin is himself a professional editor and edits his books as he proceeds before getting feedback from his publisher-editors. It's one of the reasons the books take so long to come out. OTOH, it does mean that when he says the book is done, it is really done (and not "Done bar another year of rewrites," which is the situation Pat Rothfuss is in at the moment) and will be out a few months later.


Kthulhu wrote:
In Lovecraft's Mythos, none of the entities other than Nyarlathotep really have any malevolent tendencies towards humanity.

Cthulhu seemed to be pretty malicious toward the sailors who accidentally freed him. He crushed half a dozen of them with his claws and then chased the last two survivors into the ocean. It's possible that that was just his way of playing, but that would require him to have the intellect of a five year old.

Freehold DM wrote:


No, not at Dexcon- I'm actually upset I missed it this year. I'm getting all my con out at Otakon and NYAF/NYCC this year. Look for the guy with underwear on his head...again!

I might have to look up a new con; I haven't been to one all year. I think I'm going through withdrawal!

Shadow Lodge

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Cthulhu seemed to be pretty malicious toward the sailors who accidentally freed him. He crushed half a dozen of them with his claws and then chased the last two survivors into the ocean. It's possible that that was just his way of playing, but that would require him to have the intellect of a five year old.

Dude, when you wake up after napping for a few aeons, you got the munchies. And the Alert provided delivery.

The Exchange

Kthulhu wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Cthulhu seemed to be pretty malicious toward the sailors who accidentally freed him. He crushed half a dozen of them with his claws and then chased the last two survivors into the ocean. It's possible that that was just his way of playing, but that would require him to have the intellect of a five year old.
Dude, when you wake up after napping for a few aeons, you got the munchies. And the Alert provided delivery.

Pizza dude!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

J.R. Farrington, Esq. wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
George RR Martin...

The man needs an editor.

There, I said it.

Writers who don't need editors don't exist.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Also, I realize that Lovecraft isn't for everyone... and I try not to hold that against you if it's not for you... but you still go on the list. :-P


"The Color Out of Space" by H.P. Lovecraft is excellent and my favorite, by far.
I question comparing Martin with Lovecraft. I wouldn't even agree this is the same genre being discussed. Though I personally can't compare the two authors myself, as I have only read Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series so far; and four books in the story isn't complete yet. I'll be in a better position to compare authors once the story is finished.


Tequila Sunrise wrote:
... For example, "more heinous than the blackest voodoo ritual" doesn't mean much to anyone who knows that voodoo is just another religion, no more sinister than the next. ...

Are you F-ing crazy!! Those ______ ____ will now be coming for you.

I would tell you to run. Run and never stop, but it doesn't matter. Those who cannot be named will find you... goodbye.

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
J.R. Farrington, Esq. wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
George RR Martin...

The man needs an editor.

There, I said it.

Writers who don't need editors don't exist.

False assumption. Editors exist purely to exert conformity on what is incorrectly considered a single branchless language for the purpose of unilateralism. Language however is as diverse as the individual and the purpose of the written word is to express meaning to others or ones self - While the capacity to transfer comprehension to another requires linguistic conformity, the capacity to record ones own thoughts for the self declares conformity meaningless.

Consider the Dictionary. It is designed to provide conformity for a group, however if it is to be truly accurate then we must consider A,B, C, D...Z to infact be a 26 base number system with which we allocate a number to a concept.
THe Dictionary in its idealized form is in fact a catalogue of ideas - given a number that uses a 26 base number system (27 if you consider the ZERO as the blank Space).

If we truly desire conformity and accuracy then we might as well simply lay out our dictionary on the assumption that they are numbers and allocate our numbers thusly:

A0000000000000 : A, The Letter
//
AARD0000000000 : A Dutch/Boer Term for 'Earth'.
//
AARDVARK000000 : A Dutch/Boer term for Ant eater.
//
AARDWOLF000000 : A Dutch Boer term meaning 'Earthwolf'.
//
B0000000000000
//
BARD0000000000 : A Musician of ancient times, a great poet or playwright
//
C0000000000000
//
D0000000000000
//
E0000000000000

Not only will it allow us to computer generate all our Dictionaries we will be able to allocate all the un-used numbers. Languages will become meaningless as an assortment of different numbers will refer to the same concept. What we called languages will be meaningless and stored in a common dictionary. The idea of French, Chinese, Russian, English will Give way to Terran.


James Jacobs wrote:
Also, I realize that Lovecraft isn't for everyone... and I try not to hold that against you if it's not for you... but you still go on the list. :-P

Hey I used to be on that list.. they can be converted! ;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I once talked to a young kid (I am no longer one) who thought "Tolkien sucked" because his stuff was so bland and just like everyone else's. It was no use trying to explain that when Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings, there was nothing else like it, and the closest parallel was a thousand years previous. To him, it sucked because it was so like everything else he'd read. It didn't matter who copied whom.

This discussion reminds me of that.

Lovecraft was an original. Most of modern horror finds its roots in "At the Mountains of Madness" or "The Doom that came to Sarnath" or "The Color out of Time." Just because voodoo doesn't seem "black" (horrific) to you doesn't mean you can't understand the intent of the writer.

By the way, if voodoo is just another religion to you, you may want to change churches!


Set wrote:
Idoru was a terribly frustrating book. It had a ton of plot points that flowed towards a logical conclusion, and at the last moment he swerved and avoided the big impressive finish as said, 'Yeah, it was nothing. No plot. The end.'

Idoru drove my wife babbling insane for a while there. The ending was awful.

Set wrote:
So frustrating, like when your dad says, 'We're going to Disneyland!' and you drive for hours across the country and in mid-Arizona he abandons you at a gas station and drives off, never to be seen again.

I dont' know what it is about this line, but it had me literally doubled over with laughter. Maybe it's because I could see my dad doing that. Maybe it's because I really need the laugh. But hell, that made me lol like I've never loled before.

The Exchange

Freehold DM wrote:
Set wrote:
Idoru was a terribly frustrating book. It had a ton of plot points that flowed towards a logical conclusion, and at the last moment he swerved and avoided the big impressive finish as said, 'Yeah, it was nothing. No plot. The end.'

Idoru drove my wife babbling insane for a while there. The ending was awful.

Set wrote:
So frustrating, like when your dad says, 'We're going to Disneyland!' and you drive for hours across the country and in mid-Arizona he abandons you at a gas station and drives off, never to be seen again.
I dont' know what it is about this line, but it had me literally doubled over with laughter. Maybe it's because I could see my dad doing that. Maybe it's because I really need the laugh. But hell, that made me lol like I've never loled before.

Its a variant of...We are taking your pet dog for a ride in the country. It got so my dogs feared getting in the Car. The one who got in never came home.


James Jacobs wrote:
Writers who don't need editors don't exist.

Not to speak for him, but I suspect J.R. meant that he needs a competent editor.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

yellowdingo wrote:
False assumption.

Some messageboard posts need editors too. :P

The Exchange

Black Dougal wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Jean Tannen wrote:

GRRM is gonna pull a Jordan on us, just watch. I mean look at him, he isn't in the nest of shape or anything.

And On the series.... I honestly believe he lost his passion and love for the world he created. I think the fire died and now he is scrambling like crazy to reclaim it.

A valid fear. Was just talking about this with a friend of mine the other day. I think he'll wrap it up in two-three books at most, with the last one told on fast-forward.
If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.

Sorry, book 4 was very subpar.

And at times seriously felt like it was written by anyone but a perfectionist.


Jean Tannen wrote:
Black Dougal wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Jean Tannen wrote:

GRRM is gonna pull a Jordan on us, just watch. I mean look at him, he isn't in the nest of shape or anything.

And On the series.... I honestly believe he lost his passion and love for the world he created. I think the fire died and now he is scrambling like crazy to reclaim it.

A valid fear. Was just talking about this with a friend of mine the other day. I think he'll wrap it up in two-three books at most, with the last one told on fast-forward.
If you actually read his "not a blog" section on his website, you can see he is not so much burned out but a ridiculous perfectionist. The reason his writting is so good is that constantly rewrites chapters if they don't come out they way he likes. I respect that but what it means is that the books come out way late. If you are used to someone like Terry Goodkind that churned out worse and worse books on a regular schedule as the series went on just to fulfil some editorial quota, then Martin's "I will finish it when I am happy" is hard to put up with, but you know the sugar is gonna be good.

Sorry, book 4 was very subpar.

And at times seriously felt like it was written by anyone but a perfectionist.

I'm thinking overzealous editors got to it.

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:
False assumption.
Some messageboard posts need editors too. :P

Shines lamp into James's Face...

"Who are the other members of your Dictionary Cult?"

Think about it James...if letters are a 26 base numeracy and words are numbers allocated to a meaning, your job entails ensuring that the correct numbers are allocated in the correct order to convey supergroup meaning to a language that is purely fictional.

How weird it would be if it got out that Goblins dont speak Goblin - they sing Numbers in order to manipulate reality. :p


Kthulhu wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Cthulhu seemed to be pretty malicious toward the sailors who accidentally freed him. He crushed half a dozen of them with his claws and then chased the last two survivors into the ocean. It's possible that that was just his way of playing, but that would require him to have the intellect of a five year old.
Dude, when you wake up after napping for a few aeons, you got the munchies. And the Alert provided delivery.

I'd think an alien entity like Cthulhu would want a more homey snack, like martian Cheetos or something. (Did he actually eat the people he killed or just splatter them?)

James Jacobs wrote:
Also, I realize that Lovecraft isn't for everyone... and I try not to hold that against you if it's not for you... but you still go on the list. :-P

Wait, do you mean the I Can't Believe It's Not Viagra list? 'Cause I'm on that one already, and let me tell you, it so wasn't worth it!

Dark Sasha wrote:
I question comparing Martin with Lovecraft. I wouldn't even agree this is the same genre being discussed. Though I personally can't compare the two authors myself, as I have only read Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series so far; and four books in the story isn't complete yet. I'll be in a better position to compare authors once the story is finished.

I'm not comparing the two; I just wanted to finish my OP on a positive note.

yellowdingo wrote:
...

Dude, you just shattered my fragile cold-addled mind. *Retreats into private world of gibbering Lovecraftian horror* It's all about the letters man! And the numbers, they mean something terrible! I'm not sure yet, but I think they mean English is a crazy confusing mess of a language...ahhhh!

Tarondor wrote:


By the way, if voodoo is just another religion to you, you may want to change churches!

I'm a bit confused. Maybe because I don't have a church, synagogue or temple.


Lovecraft is reading, real brain-wracking get-out-the-dictionary reading. GRRM is like brain candy. It's nice, but I'm not gonna remember it in twenty years.

It's been twenty years since I read "Innsmouth" and I still remember the wonder and horror of the story.

I think part of the issue is that the OP is reading Lovecraft with a modern mindset. Sure, everything can be explained by science. But, in the twenties there was thought to be life on Mars and Venus. Modern science was in its infancy. Heck, even things like hurricanes couldn't be predicted, because radar wasn't around yet.

Is Shakespeare predictable? Sure, because we're all familiar with the story. Romeo and Juliet come to a bad end. But it's still great literature.


Jean Tannen wrote:

Sorry, book 4 was very subpar.

And at times seriously felt like it was written by anyone but a perfectionist.

Book 4's mixed reception is one of the likely reasons GRRM has been such an overzealous perfectionist with regards to Book 5. Book 4 was dangerously slow, risking the series spinning out of control across many unnecessary books, and Martin appears to have realised this and undertaken extremely heavy editing and rewrites to ensure Book 5 makes up for the deficiency and ensure this series is done in seven and no more.

Quote:
Lovecraft is reading, real brain-wracking get-out-the-dictionary reading. GRRM is like brain candy. It's nice, but I'm not gonna remember it in twenty years.

Lovecraft has an important, formative role in the history of fantastical literature. Many of his stories remain readable and interesting today, even if you have to flip on the '1920s reading visor' to stomach some of his less savoury aspects, although you shouldn't entirely excuse them because of that. Robert E. Howard, for example, was considerably less offensive (okay, hardly a paragon of progressive writing, but Howard at least occasionally had 'good' black characters and women who did more than scream and pass out, even saving Conan a few times).

Martin is an extraordinarily powerful science fiction and horror author, however. Completely ignoring his fantasy work, Martin is widely regarded as one of the best, if not THE best, short fiction authors in the genre working in the 1970s and 1980s, with stories like SANDKINGS held up as among the best the genre has to offer (though I much prefer the considerably darker and more disturbing MEATHOUSE MAN). He then kicked off the 1980s with the last truly great, truly classic vampire novel, FEVRE DREAM (if you don't count Dan Simmons' CARRION COMFORT, which I don't as the creatures are not really vampires in the classic sense), before bringing superheroes into vogue in literature with WILD CARDS. A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE - the finest secondary-world fantasy since Tolkien - is merely the culmination of a lengthy career which has seen him win numerous awards and accolades over some forty years.


Werthead wrote:


Lovecraft has an important, formative role in the history of fantastical literature.

Martin is an extraordinarily powerful science fiction and horror author, however.

While I'm sure he gets lots of accolades, and I do enjoy reading his work, GRRM is still brain candy. It's nice to plow through a few chapters, but I still haven't found "Literature" in his work. That isn't to say it's not entertaining. But I found Glen Cook's stuff to be just as entertaining. Tom Clancy's novels are fun, too. Dan Brown's stuff . . . not as much brain candy as brain cotton candy.

Reading as a pastime, GRRM is good. I'm reading A Game of Thrones now, and enjoying it. Lots of fun stuff, but it doesn't bring to mind the great philosophical questions. Yep, there's some bad people, and some good people, and some people mixed up in a 'realistic way.' But there's not a whole lot of new ground. Reading this stuff is not a mind-expanding activity. I don't leave the story thinking I've learned anything new about the human condition. I haven't been imparted some great understanding about how the world works. I've been told a really good story.

As I was proofreading this, the thought occurred to me that A Game of Thrones could have been an historical novel, but much like Howard, GRRM could eliminate all the difficult historical research by creating his own world. Thus far (600+ pages), the story could be set in Europe.

A great story, sure, but not something I'll keep on my shelf.

The Exchange

yellowdingo wrote:


Think about it James...if letters are a 26 base numeracy and words are numbers allocated to a meaning, your job entails ensuring that the correct numbers are allocated in the correct order to convey supergroup meaning to a language that is purely fictional.

In what sense do you mean fictional? Because language essentially "exists" in the act of its construction...So are you just saying you don't believe in a sort of Platonic concept of "language outside of language"? or do you mean something else?

The Exchange

Zeugma wrote:
yellowdingo wrote:


Think about it James...if letters are a 26 base numeracy and words are numbers allocated to a meaning, your job entails ensuring that the correct numbers are allocated in the correct order to convey supergroup meaning to a language that is purely fictional.

In what sense do you mean fictional? Because language essentially "exists" in the act of its construction...So are you just saying you don't believe in a sort of Platonic concept of "language outside of language"? or do you mean something else?

The Delusion that language is anything other than a sequence of numbers allocated for the purpose of cataloging the 'human' experience would be an error.

{01 00 19 13 01 12 12 02 00 13 15 13 05 14 20 00 09 19 00 08 05 01 18 04 00 02 25 00 05 22 05 18 25 15 14 05}:
A small moment is heard by everyone
.

The Exchange

Tequila Sunrise wrote:


yellowdingo wrote:
...

Dude, you just shattered my fragile cold-addled mind. *Retreats into private world of gibbering Lovecraftian horror* It's all about the letters man! And the numbers, they mean something terrible! I'm not sure yet, but I think they mean English is a crazy confusing mess of a language...ahhhh!

What you should be asking is once we start to fill out the dictionary correctly, and treat it as a 26 base number catalogue of human experience (27 if you throw in the zero primer) what will we put into the other 'empty slots'?

What will we equate to CACACALU?


Doug's Workshop wrote:
Reading this stuff is not a mind-expanding activity. I don't leave the story thinking I've learned anything new about the human condition. I haven't been imparted some great understanding about how the world works. I've been told a really good story.

Absolutely, although the emotional charge of a really good story doesn't instantly rid a book of literary merit (and Martin delves into some interesting questions of power, authority, responsibility and personal choice as the series unfolds). It is also good to hear that Glen Cook is a good writer, as I've just had all four volumes of his series in omnibus land on my doorstep (in return for some work for the publishers).

What I am intrigued by is this idea that Lovecraft is capital-L Literature in a way that Martin isn't. I see Lovecraft very much as Howard, with both authors subscribing to these ideas they would revisit in their work (Lovecraft's ideas on the limits of human knowledge and understanding and breaking those limits leads to insanity; Howard's suggestion that barbarism is the natural state of humanity and civilisation a momentary and doomed aberration), but not necessarily with huge literary explorations of their themes. Both writers wrote to entertain first.

In that way, I don't see much difference with Martin, who adopts this idea of power and responsibility and develops it, but doesn't dive deeply into its full literary ramifications (yet, with three volumes to come it remains to be seen if there is something more interesting going on there) apart from the fact that Lovecraft and Howard were formative in establishing the genre whilst Martin was writing in it when it was already mature (and even so Martin's influence on later and current speculative fiction writers is immense).

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