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Jeanne de Belleville, whose husband Oliver III of Clisson was beheaded by Charles of Blois, led her troops in sacking several towns loyal to Charles. She later obtained 3 ships from Edward III of England which she used to sink French merchant and military vessels. She kept her two young children with her on her military campaigns until she eventually retired and remarried.
BEST "Take Your Child to Work Day" EVER!
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For excellent fantasy writing which explores this issue more closely, I recommend L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s books from the Saga of Recluce.
Specifically:
Fall of Angels
Death of Chaos
Arms-Commander
Synopsis: Bunch of people (predominantly female) land in inhospitable, mountaintop area, surrounded by patriarchal, medieval style feudal lords. They discover they have magic abilities, spend some time building their power base, and fight all kinds of battles.
That begins in Fall of Angels, continues (in a way) by following a pair of exiles in Death of Chaos, and is shown very well all through Arms-Commander.
Fall of Angels is written from several characters POV, including both male and female, Death of Chaos is largely, if not entirely from the male perspective, and Arms-Commander from the female POV all the way.
They are action filled, with really well designed "magic" systems, and available as paperback on the cheap (except the last one...but wait a bit or get it electronically on the cheap.)
Although certainly a special situation, there are sources that indicate, there were women warriors among the crusaders,as well as indications that, among many medieval cultures, women were sometimes warriors, too
After 1100, women that did not follow thetr expected role were ofter vilified. Remember, the Catholic church at this time was dealing with a movement by women to have more say in the church. Prior to 1100, text reporting women on the battle field typically viewed the matter as a non-issue.
In the case of women fighting in the crusades, most reports are from Islamic text. In 1190, during the Third Crusade, Christian forces attacked the Muslim camp where the chronicler Imad ad-Din al-Isfahani was stationed. He mentions how he rode out to inspect the battlefield after the attack had been repelled, and was shocked to find two women among the dead Christian warriors. He later heard that four women had taken part in the attack.
Imad also tells of a female archer in a green mantle who wounded many Muslims at Acre, and it is hardly effective propaganda to write about a supposedly weak woman shooting your own troops. In addition to this, archaeological excavations in the ruins of Caesarea, once an important crusader city, have uncovered a female skeleton in scale armor.
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(imagine we had dragons and orcs in medieval Europe, and now try imagining girls in full plate trotting off to face them. Wouldn't happen, wouldn't it ?).Actually, I have a much easier time imagining women trotting off in full plate to fight than I do imagining real-world dragons. That might just be me though.
Well, quite a few of Joan of Arc's depictions show her in full plate.
It was impossible. Joan was an exception, and is famous exactly because of that. Exceptions have it easier to reach history annals and achieve iconic status in the popular culture.
In addition to all the other historical stuff mentioned above, it's worth noting that popular culture was also fairly kind to the concept at times. The Faerie Queene, for instance, written in the sixteenth century, includes not one but two different women warriors in full plate (one of whom is actually named Palladine!), and neither one is singled out for breaking her gender role. (Though, in a turn that might be considered quite relevant to the thread topic, the one who gets the most screen time, Britomart, does eventually give up her knightly status so she can be a good wife and mother.)
I have just spent hours communing with Erastil, asking his wisdom on this subject. He has given me a message for women who wish to join his clergy:
"It's a man's obligation to stick his boneration in a woman's separation; this sort of penetration will increase the population of the younger generation."
and
"[deleted], get in the kitchen and make me a chicken pot pie!"
Strangely, he manifested as a rotund young man from a strange land called "Colorado".
I must meditate on this...
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@DM Wellard: Thanks for the write-up on Jeanne de Clisson and Joanna of Flanders. Same conflict (Bretton War of Succession), different sides, both women who killed for their cause. I hadn't heard of the "Lioness of Brittany" or "Jeanne la Flamme" before, and I read a whole (admittedly short) book on the 100 Years War!
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He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men. Erastil would consider me (an unmarried, almost-40, childfree man with no land) very "unmanly." If I lived in a world where Erastil was real, would that prevent me from praying to him for prosperity in my farming or hunting? No. Compared to the gods, we are all inferior and inadequate
Indeed, look at the Momma Grizzly ad of late. Being a wife and mother can make you more fierce. A female follower of Erastil could fit into Kingmaker easily. Part of the 'wifely' duties is to take care of the home. You're carving a kingdom out as your home. Likewise, part of being a husband is listening to your wife.
As to Erastil and homosexuality... I'd assume that they could have a place in the community, as educators, militia, or mentors. They're still helping within the society and can adopt.
To stir the pot... If anyone can 'pray away the gay' it would be a follower of Erastil...
Unless I'm mistaken, and I'm hardly an expert on Golarian, that setting is largely silent on sexual orientation.
You are correct. Still, I would suspect that followers of Erastil would follow the conventions of have a wife (or husband), produce some kids, and as long as you were descreet, what you did on the side was your own business.
Unless I'm mistaken, and I'm hardly an expert on Golarian, that setting is largely silent on sexual orientation.
I can think of several homosexual NPCs from various APs off the top of my head. What I can't call to mind is an NPC with an anti-gay stance.
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Unless I'm mistaken, and I'm hardly an expert on Golarian, that setting is largely silent on sexual orientation.He is saying that a woman's role is to be wife and mother... just as a man's role is to be husband and father. Yet he's not insisting that everyone get married at the start of puberty and start cranking out children just because they can.
If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men. Erastil would consider me (an unmarried, almost-40, childfree man with no land) very "unmanly." If I lived in a world where Erastil was real, would that prevent me from praying to him for prosperity in my farming or hunting? No. Compared to the gods, we are all inferior and inadequate
Indeed, look at the Momma Grizzly ad of late. Being a wife and mother can make you more fierce. A female follower of Erastil could fit into Kingmaker easily. Part of the 'wifely' duties is to take care of the home. You're carving a kingdom out as your home. Likewise, part of being a husband is listening to your wife.
As to Erastil and homosexuality... I'd assume that they could have a place in the community, as educators, militia, or mentors. They're still helping within the society and can adopt.
To stir the pot... If anyone can 'pray away the gay' it would be a follower of Erastil...
If anything, it's more pro then it is anti. There's been a gay/lesbian person or couple in almost every AP I believe, and I don't recall reading about any hardships they suffered because of it. I could just be misremembering though.
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Maybe I should clarify,
Erastil is old fashioned, conservative. In a world with spells like atonement "Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours" If any deity would be willing to interceed to change a worshiper's sexual orientation to heterosexual, it would seem to me to be Erastil. "Please father, let Erastil take this urge to bed Farmer Brown from me, so I may better serve Erastil and his plan."*
I don't want to drag this down the route of repartive therapy.
*
Look at Mel Gibson as an example.
I'd only really take him as an example when I want to explain the limits of Malka(/o)vian insanity. "If you get to the Mel Gibson level of insane, you're beyond what the malkies can get. They shake their hands and call him b%*$*&*."
Erastil does want strong-willed women to be married off quickly - but it's the same with strong-willed, wild men. In that regards, he's more pro-family and anti-adventuring than having any particularly sexist views...
In that regards, he's more pro-family and anti-adventuring than having any particularly sexist views...
Except for that women "should defer to and support their husbands" bit.
KaYos:
I want to point out at this time that not bothering to write someone's name properly is also a form of discrimination. It always smacks of "You people and your funny names. I'll write something down that sounds right to me, get a proper name chop chop."
Your mama bear analogy was nice, but I see your bear and counter with
Note that I didn't claim all animals were the same merely that there are animals that show behavior Erastil will approve of that are very "natural" and don't involve women being property.
Let's not forget those races where the female eats the male (oppressive sexists, the lot of them).
The key thing here is Erastil is LG...not LN, not 'hidden' LE. HE's LAWFUL GOOD.
Exactly. Lawful Good. Not Lawful Anal, not Lawful Stupid! Erastil's paladin's won't smite you for jaywalking or slacking in the field, they won't smite you if you if you look at a woman and have "impure thoughts".
I am starting to feel sorry for poor old Erastil with the hatred being aimed at him. It’s not like he is Asmodeus
Nobody complains about Asmodeus, either. And Erastil, though maybe being a bit quaint in his views, still has a dogma that is centuries ahead of what the real world, because he has been calling marital rape a crime for centuries (maybe millennia), while even "progressive" real-world nations only recently caught on.
My thoughts on this – sexism is boring in rpgs.
Boring like only a 300+ post thread can be ;-P
That’s the response I’ve got when discussing it with the female players I know. If you’re having to deal with endemic patriarchal nonsense every day; having it crop up in your escapist rpg is just not fun.
We discussed that already. I already countered that while some want to escape from their problems, others prefer to bring them with them - and armed with magic, legendary prowess and divine favour, real-world problems tend to shrink right down and become easier to deal with - and, in some cases, actually solvable by the players, something that's a lot more difficult in the real world.
There’s also a mechanical issue here: is it feasible that society can be male-dominated, when mechanically there’s absolutely no difference in strength and stamina between men and women?
Are you saying that all those real-world societies where men dominate(d) are/were possible because women are weaker than men?
Excuse me if I stand 100 feet away from you and shout - I just don't want to turn into collateral ;-)
Anyway, sexist societies are perfectly feasible.
It can be that their patron deities are patron deities rather than matron deities (i.e. male) and impose that bias
Or it can evolve out of the natural roles the genders have: Women are inherently much better at caring for children, especially since men can't breast-feed them! Nowadays, you have advanced concepts like baby bottles, and a lot of things that make it possible for the man to care for the kid while the woman goes out and work, but that was not an option in the earliest days. You weren't risking those women on the hunt (which has always been dangerous)! The baby can do without its sire, but not without its mother. Necessity becomes tradition, and tradition is tradition.
so I have a harder time figuring out what Erastil’s rationale is for placing men at the centre of the household – makes no sense to me.
As I said above: The roles make sense to him: Men go out to the field to break their backs, or to the hunt, while women care for children. You can go from there to "the provider should be the decider" or just tradition.
Note, again, that Erastil certainly doesn't require women to be mute suckling stations or anything.
I note that the Erastil article has a lot of gender-based ‘traditional values’ stuff – but not one word regarding homosexuals. One would assume that Erastil (as portrayed in the article) would be vehemently opposed to non-progeny producing relationships, yet there’s just no mention of this prejudice at all. I would lay even money that far fewer posters would feel comfortable ‘defending’ a write-up of an overtly ethnically racist or anti-homosexual LG god.
Now, this seems to me like you're saying that he secretly hates gays but doesn't say anything because he wants to keep his good image or something.
That is just not true.
Just as he's not really sexist. He might have some mild sexist tendencies, but he's nowhere near a sexist saying women are inferior or anything (again: See Asmodeus for that)
I think the article doesn't mention homosexuality because the deity doesn't really have that much of an opinion on the matter. But, as James Sutter already said in this very threat (when I mentioned this), it's likely that he would be, well, a bit disappointed because they don't breed, but won't smite them or anything. It's likely that they'd be asked to care for some orphans, or otherwise contribute to the community (working like everyone else).
If the homosexuals do their part to support the community, the community will support them.
My issue with Erastil being sexist is that it’s a bit boring, it’s not fun to roleplay, and it potentially opens the door for less-enlightened roleplayers to behave in a boorish manner, espousing attitudes that I have no time for under the guise of “that’s what the writeup says”.
My issue with this is that if we left everything out that some idiots could twist into supporting their stupid attitudes, we'd have blank pages.
Erastil's quaint attitudes? "That's sexist, which is good, because this god does it! Now, as you play a follower of that erastil fella, why don't you go down on your knees and defer to me, (expletive deleted)?"
Any mention to homosexuality? If it seems that they're not striken down by the gods, it's "Paizo supports (expletive deleted)!! Can you believe that! Jesus shall strike them down! My child will not buy these devil books!"
If there is any mention of anyone within the game world not liking them, it's: "Those backwards idiots of Paizo are bashing homosexuals! Go back to the 9th centuries you (expletive deleted)!!!"
Calistria: "Extramarital sex? Take this book back you (expletive deleted)! I don't want my child to burn in hell for all eternity!"
Or, Calistira: "Woohooo! I play a priest of Calistria! Yeah, I'll rock out with my (expletive deleted) out! Is that chick we rescued hot? I bet she's in heat, I'll (expletive deleted) her brains out. I'm allowed, I worship Calistria. Where's the loot? I'll go to the whorehouse and spend every copper. We need to spend the next three sessions in that brothel! First, you tell me what the whores look like and then I'll explain, in detail, what I'll do to them! And you can't anything, because it's in the books!!!"
It’s a shame overall, as the writeup is good (as they always are), but I know I’m going to have to edit it before I have it to one of my players and make Erastil conservative, but not sexist.
My advice: If you fear that not editing that entry will lead to players playing sexists, just get rid of those guys and look for grown-ups to play with.
Really. I mean, come on! Whenever I have to deal with someone taking *anything* written *anywhere* as an excuse to act like a jerk in my games, I'll just kick them out of my group, and my home, if necessary, and tell them to get lost.
Compare it to Forgotten Realms, where the only female goddesses tended to be very infuriatingly "female" to the point of insult.
Let's see:
And that's only from a short peak at the Faerûnian pantheon - there's several others.
On a related note, why is Kyonin sexist?
The campaign setting write up clearly states that the Kynonin is ruled by a queen, and that her authority cannot be questioned. So, by extension, every male citizen of Kyonin must defer to a female.
And yet, Paizo had the gall to call Kyonin Chaotic Good! A society where a person of one gender has been given ultimate authority over all members of the other gender is Good?
Clearly, there shouldn't be any Good-aligned entity in the campaign setting that espouses a belief in a non-egalitarian system of leadership. No leader of any unit of any Good society should be described as having or expecting priority by accident of birth.
I would equally enjoy kicking the s&&! out of Erastil followers and clergy who were down on homosexuals. I never get to beat the living crap out of such folk in my real life; so, in my fantasy life it would be quite cathartic.
Look into Blue Rose (the True20 game world of romantic roleplaying) where you can basically go to war over this.
There are two main countries - one bound to tradition, one to freedom. The first despises homosexuals, because they're "non-breeders" and that is pretty much the most important thing to them, while the second holds that people should have the freedom to be themselves. One of the major points those two realms clash over.
Mind you, I don't know enough of Blue Rose to know whether those nations go to war with each other on a regular basis or not, but I remember reading that part.
I hate you all.
THAT'S OMNIST!
If anything, it's more pro then it is anti. There's been a gay/lesbian person or couple in almost every AP I believe, and I don't recall reading about any hardships they suffered because of it. I could just be misremembering though.
Oh, one of those lesbians was brutally murdered.
Her lover came to her senses in her end, seeing that she was blinded and helped against the she-tyrant.
I put this in spoilers not only to give people a chance to not read up on AP stories, but also to have the sentence above stand by its own. Some people will love to draw the false conclusions from it ;-)
In that regards, he's more pro-family and anti-adventuring than having any particularly sexist views...Except for that women "should defer to and support their husbands" bit.
Nah. His stance isn't really sexist. May have a slight sexist flavour, but it's miles away from full-blown sexism.
That was explained about half a dozen times in this thread, too. I don't feel like digging it up, though.
On a related note, why is Kyonin sexist?
The campaign setting write up clearly states that the Kynonin is ruled by a queen, and that her authority cannot be questioned. So, by extension, every male citizen of Kyonin must defer to a female.
And yet, Paizo had the gall to call Kyonin Chaotic Good! A society where a person of one gender has been given ultimate authority over all members of the other gender is Good?
Clearly, there shouldn't be any Good-aligned entity in the campaign setting that espouses a belief in a non-egalitarian system of leadership. No leader of any unit of any Good society should be described as having or expecting priority by accident of birth.
Oh, that's about elves. They're not real people, so it's alright.
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I've wanted to play a paladin of Erastil ever since I first read his description...and I've never ever been interested in playing a paladin before. I could imagine a family man who had his own farm out in the sticks, then lost his home, wife, and children in a brutal goblin/bandit/evil monster attack - so he takes up his bow and vows to fight back against that evil to protect the rest of his community.
After reading through this thread (the whole thing!) I don't think there's any reason to suppose that the role couldn't be swapped, and have the wife be the sole survivor who then sets out on adventure. If you need any reason as to why he or she didn't settle down with a new partner in the community, you could say that the experience left him/her emotionally scarred to the point where a simple family life wouldn't be feasible (at least not anytime soon). And I honestly don't think anyone in the community, or any Erastilite priest would look down on such a widow for taking up they bow/sword at this point and adventuring. Erastil would certainly give his divine blessing on such a paladin.
Given the proper context, I don't see Erastil as being either sexist or anti-adventuring. Come up with a plausible explanation and you can make it work.
I've wanted to play a paladin of Erastil ever since I first read his description...and I've never ever been interested in playing a paladin before. I could imagine a family man who had his own farm out in the sticks, then lost his home, wife, and children in a brutal goblin/bandit/evil monster attack - so he takes up his bow and vows to fight back against that evil to protect the rest of his community.
You don't even have to kill off the family. I mean, that's so cliché ;-)
Leave the family alive and let him go to prevent them from being killed when the threat that his homeland faces sweeps over his village.
A big of a reluctant adventurer - he'd rather stay home, tend to the farm and be with his family, but he's been called to beat back the tide of darkness so he has a family to return to (as have countless others).
You could totally Michael Carpenter that character (from the Dresden Files - never have I seen a better depiction of the classical paladin archetype! A crusader that is very much righteous but in no way holier-than-thou)
Edit: And there's no reason this couldn't be a Michaela Carpenter.
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I've wanted to play a paladin of Erastil ever since I first read his description...and I've never ever been interested in playing a paladin before. I could imagine a family man who had his own farm out in the sticks, then lost his home, wife, and children in a brutal goblin/bandit/evil monster attack - so he takes up his bow and vows to fight back against that evil to protect the rest of his community.
You don't even have to kill off the family. I mean, that's so cliché ;-)
Leave the family alive and let him go to prevent them from being killed when the threat that his homeland faces sweeps over his village.
A big of a reluctant adventurer - he'd rather stay home, tend to the farm and be with his family, but he's been called to beat back the tide of darkness so he has a family to return to (as have countless others).
You could totally Michael Carpenter that character (from the Dresden Files - never have I seen a better depiction of the classical paladin archetype! A crusader that is very much righteous but in no way holier-than-thou)
Ah, yes! Given the right campaign, that could work really well. Though having the rest of the family be dead would work much better for an excuse for the mother, as opposed to the father, be the one to set off on adventure.
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Nah. His stance isn't really sexist. May have a slight sexist flavour, but it's miles away from full-blown sexism.
When I read statements like this, it just makes me shake my head in sadness. There are different levels of misogyny or misandry, but when one sex is basically discouraged from taking on certain roles simply because of his or her sex, that is sexism.
Women technically can be clerics of Erastil, but they are discouraged from doing that because of their sex, not for any other reason. This happens despite the fact that the expected duties of a cleric don't involve doing things that a female couldn't conceiveably do (AFIK - if Erastil's holy rites involve distance peeing contests, then there is a problem for most female candidates).
Ya know guys Cleric and paladin are not just a job you try and do. They are granted powers by the god they have unshakable faith in.
So the fact is Erastil does indeed have clerics and paladins of both sexes, he does not withhold his gifts from those of either sex. Women with deep faith in him often are not called to serve in that way, yet many are called to preach his word and defend his faithful that are women. It could be said that the reason so few of his clerics are women is because those with deep faith in him believe that there place is at home. Some folks do in fact believe that way.
A woman who served as his paladin or cleric may not yet be married, but that does not mean she does not one day wish to have a family, nor does that mean once she has one she is no longer needed to defend the faithful.
He thinks she should settle down and have a family, but he thinks men should do the same thing. At the same time he knows his faithful need defenders and healer, teachers and caretakers
After all if Erastil was all that sexist he would not have females among his clergy or paladins at all.
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Ah, yes! Given the right campaign, that could work really well. Though having the rest of the family be dead would work much better for an excuse for the mother, as opposed to the father, be the one to set off on adventure.
You don't even need that excuse for the mother. Alternatives: Husband got injured in war and can no longer fight (Disney's "Mulan"); husband died but kids are still alive - oldest takes care of the younger ones while mama goes off to fight; husband and wife go off to fight together, because they have a farm but no kids/their kids are grown up.
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I've wanted to play a paladin of Erastil ever since I first read his description...and I've never ever been interested in playing a paladin before. I could imagine a family man who had his own farm out in the sticks, then lost his home, wife, and children in a brutal goblin/bandit/evil monster attack - so he takes up his bow and vows to fight back against that evil to protect the rest of his community.
That's easy... how about "The Outlaw Jose Wales"?
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You don't even need that excuse for the mother. Alternatives: Husband got injured in war and can no longer fight (Disney's "Mulan"); husband died but kids are still alive - oldest takes care of the younger ones while mama goes off to fight; husband and wife go off to fight together, because they have a farm but no kids/their kids are grown up.
Ah, yes! Given the right campaign, that could work really well. Though having the rest of the family be dead would work much better for an excuse for the mother, as opposed to the father, be the one to set off on adventure.
Great points! Thanks for the ideas - I'll take those into consideration when I finally get the chance to play this character concept.
When I read statements like this, it just makes me shake my head in sadness. There are different levels of misogyny or misandry, but when one sex is basically discouraged from taking on certain roles simply because of his or her sex, that is sexism.
Agreed. Although I've avoided using the word misogynistic in regards to Erastil, I don't believe he out-and-out hates women, I would have thought that his sexism would be self-evident. This thread has shown me that I was naive to think so.
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When I read statements like this, it just makes me shake my head in sadness. There are different levels of misogyny or misandry, but when one sex is basically discouraged from taking on certain roles simply because of his or her sex, that is sexism.Agreed. Although I've avoided using the word misogynistic in regards to Erastil, I don't believe he out-and-out hates women, I would have thought that his sexism would be self-evident. This thread has shown me that I was naive to think so.
I don’t think many people on this thread are saying that Erastil does not display some amount of sexism in parts of his doctrine (or that sexist behaviour is justifiable in our modern society), what people are generally saying is that:
a) his sexist attitude is born out of a sense of adhering to traditional roles (that made sense when he was young) and protecting and nurturing individuals and the community, rather than evil or misogynistic tendencies; that:
b) his attitudes do not preclude him from being lawful good (as there is no maliciousness and generally little direct harm in them); and that:
c) many people think that details like this are good for the setting for the roleplaying opportunities and story ideas they provide, and that the developers have chosen not to gloss over a serious issue.
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b) his attitudes do not preclude him from being lawful good (as there is no maliciousness and generally little direct harm in them);
Note: I’m not meaning to say or imply that sexism (even ‘mild’ sexism) is not or cannot be harmful. What I am saying is take things in context; Erastil discourages women from certain roles (but does not forbid them) and encourages certain other roles (but does not require them). Could this make things difficult for women who do not wish to follow his ‘recommendations’? Yes, certainly! How difficult is it? Well, that is for the individual players and GM to decide for their game. All it might entail is a few raised eyebrows, or some comments of ‘oh, I wish she would find a nice man and settle down’. Or it could be much harder if the players and GM decide that is appropriate. But really it is going against the grain, something that many many people do every day in real life.
Perhaps you are a man who grew up enjoying RPGs, rather than playing football, much to the dismay (and comment) of relatives. Perhaps you are a man who chooses to stay at home and raise your children, while your partner has an income generating job, something that your neighbours frequently comment on. Maybe you are a woman who chooses a profession as a structural engineer, and you need to work harder than your male counterparts to earn the respect of the builders at site. Maybe you are a woman with no plans to have children, and have to endure your parents’ comments about ‘wouldn’t it be lovely if we had grandchildren’.
These are all examples of sexism that some of us here might face is real life (and yes, I understand though I’ve used some male examples, women are far more likely to face it than men). Can they make life more of a challenge? Yes. Are they harmful? That is subjective, and I would say that if you think yes, then you should leave similar situations out of your game. But if you relish the challenge, then include them.
Going against the grain or against expected roles is something that many people want to do in real life and may want to explore in roleplaying games, because we want to achieve something, or because we want to prove something. By presenting a campaign setting where all things are equal, where everyone who is good is always nice, and friendly and never sexist or racist or opinionated or stupid (and where if you are any of those things you must be evil or have evil tendencies) takes away a lot of those roleplaying opportunities, and to many people requires a greater suspension of disbelief to immerse themselves in the setting.
We can accept that people in this setting can commune with the gods, and cast spells, and go to visit dragons and all of that ... but they are after all people (for the most part), not inscrutable aliens or higher beings. That is the thing we can identify with, anchor ourselves to the setting with. And people have flaws. People that are good, people that are religious, people that we work with and live with and deal with on an every day basis, they all have flaws, we can identify with that (and obviously gods have flaws too ... I mean, have you seen what havoc religion can cause in our world?).
Anyway, rant over, I hope I made some sort of point there.
I'm still working my way through the thread at this point but I have to admit I'm floored by the sexist claims. Traditionalist, perhaps but sexist? How about Calistria's sacred prostitutes? Did I miss the thread defaming that little bit of setting flavor? (And yes, I know there are female & male sacred prostitutes but prostitute is associated with females far more often than males in RL, fiction, & film.)
Farming & family are traditionally tenets of fertility gods/cults. If Erastil was the goddess of fertility & was encouraging women to rear children, would the same claim of sexist beliefs be laid at her doorstep? I kind of doubt it.
The sexist claims are almost up there with the "racism in the Iconics" thread. Has political correctness really infected that much of the world's mindshare?
As I said, still working my way through the thread, so if someone's already gone down this train of thought, I apologize.
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Farming & family are traditionally tenets of fertility gods/cults. If Erastil was the goddess of fertility & was encouraging women to rear children, would the same claim of sexist beliefs be laid at her doorstep? I kind of doubt it.
You bring up a good point.
Yet, I would like to point out that the "essentialist" school of feminist discourse (the so-called French school because of the concept of difference - which is not it's dictionary definition) has been criticised for that very reason. So doubt away, but yes, those beliefs have been accused of being sexist, though usually couched in wordy, academic terms.[Speaking generally]I think, when people use the term "sexist" in this thread, they are ascribing more or less meanings and various weights to it depending on where they come from ideologically and experientially. Further up the thread, the meaning I meant to convey was along the lines of "family roles are segregated based on gender in Erastil's faith," (which should be self-evident from the text) so each sex is discriminated against in those roles. Whether or not the discrimination is felt as oppression is another matter altogether, one which depends on individuals and their exposure and approach to alternative cultures and ways of life.
I think this is a sensitive matter, even more than slavery, because we aren't comfortable with our construction of sex in the real world, yet must continue to construct it on a daily basis. We look in the mirror and have to ask "Who am I as a wo/man?" If it weren't like that, the intersexed wouldn't have such a hard time in this world.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[You could totally Michael Carpenter that character (from the Dresden Files - never have I seen a better depiction of the classical paladin archetype! A crusader that is very much righteous but in no way holier-than-thou)
Straying even more OT: (and full of Dresden Files spoilers)
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I have a friend that is deathly afraid of spiders - as in, if she hears the word she freezes or runs from the room. We cater to this by removing occasional spider encounters from the games she participates in. She also has bowed out of drow games because she doesn't want to deny us our fun, and realizes repurposing so many spider based themes and encounters would detract from the experience of a drow game. We're friends - we talk about issues and what we find fun in games, and work to make it as enjoyable as possible for everyone.
I'm just a bastard! I listen carefully to what players say creeps them out, and am sure to INCLUDE that in games.
Like... plants.
Heh.
And did you see the critter in the newest volume of Pathfinder AP that likes fingernails and eyes? He's the one I think I mentioned from one of the WotC Monster Manuals.
Watch out!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I have a friend that is deathly afraid of spiders - as in, if she hears the word she freezes or runs from the room. We cater to this by removing occasional spider encounters from the games she participates in. She also has bowed out of drow games because she doesn't want to deny us our fun, and realizes repurposing so many spider based themes and encounters would detract from the experience of a drow game. We're friends - we talk about issues and what we find fun in games, and work to make it as enjoyable as possible for everyone.I'm just a bastard! I listen carefully to what players say creeps them out, and am sure to INCLUDE that in games.
Like... plants.
Heh.
And did you see the critter in the newest volume of Pathfinder AP that likes fingernails and eyes? He's the one I think I mentioned from one of the WotC Monster Manuals.
Watch out!
Done in small doses, it's fine, if you're wanting players to be a little squeemish. Spiderphobia like above serves no practice to bring up. Uncomfortable players, ok, dysfunctional ones, not so much.
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I would happily defend the existence of one 'stuffy and traditional' god who had other biases beyond sexism.
I'm finding an implication in some of the stuff here that William Wilberforce and Gandhi were 'evil'. They were both, by modern standards, sexist, racist and homophobic.
All of which seems based upon the sweet notion that modern progressive liberals n(such as myself) have finally figured out precisely what it takes to be good.
Pah! linky
I love that the site you link bears the Seal of Andoran or at least the seal of the Andoran PFS faction, yes its backwards but still.
Graywulfe
I am wondering - can the gods choose/change their gender at will? I am thinking that this is most likely as they are GODS (that kind of thing is usually within their power).
If this is the case there should be a female aspect of Erastil, and the Erastil that we are seeing is the western "European" version of the god that fits the social construct for most fantasy RPGs which like it or not based around the a late medieval early renaissance western Europe.
So it is entirely possible that the Arcadian version of Erastil is female and has a different focus. It just depends on what Gender the god was wandering about as when it appeared to different people.
Is it the god that has a minor foible (nothing compared to the Greek Pantheon) or his church that has the problem. Is it the social construct that puts the words into the gods mouth....
Most religious organisations are behind the majority of the population socially by decades or are so tradition bound they are effectively paralysed.
That is why we have reformations, inquisitions, sects and religious civil wars.... Somebody usually disagrees about certain aspects of religious ritual (should we pat our heads with the right hand and rub our tummies with the left or should it be the other way) and not the central "everybody should be nice to each other" message.
So instead people decide its a good idea to kill each other because they disagree....
So is Erastil who can be of either gender or a swan or a shower of rain really sexist because gender and species is truly an option for it, or is it his/her church that is sexist because they are tradition bound?
I think Erastil is getting a lot of baggage he didn't really come with.
It's not his divine law that women defer to men. He doesn't send his clergy out to find independent women and punish them.
If you're an independent woman, or an independent man, or an adventurer in general - because his stance isn't so keen on all three of those, remember, not just women - he just kinda sighs and quietly wishes you'd settle down and start making babies. Even if you're a female cleric or paladin, he won't steal your divine power and demand you find a husband, no more then he would to a male cleric or paladin - because again, his viewpoints are that everyone should settle down, not just women. He's not some KKK enthusiast, he's that kindly old grandpa you have who nonetheless mentions whenever you visit how nice it would be to have some grandkids running around the place. If you talked to him about his stance on women he wouldn't get upset or insulting or even demand you agree with him, he'd probably just give a half frown, tuck his thumbs into his belt loops, and mention how he just prefers things that way.
I am wondering - can the gods choose/change their gender at will? I am thinking that this is most likely as they are GODS (that kind of thing is usually within their power).
If this is the case there should be a female aspect of Erastil, and the Erastil that we are seeing is the western "European" version of the god that fits the social construct for most fantasy RPGs which like it or not based around the a late medieval early renaissance western Europe.
So it is entirely possible that the Arcadian version of Erastil is female and has a different focus. It just depends on what Gender the god was wandering about as when it appeared to different people.
Is it the god that has a minor foible (nothing compared to the Greek Pantheon) or his church that has the problem. Is it the social construct that puts the words into the gods mouth....
Most religious organisations are behind the majority of the population socially by decades or are so tradition bound they are effectively paralysed.
That is why we have reformations, inquisitions, sects and religious civil wars.... Somebody usually disagrees about certain aspects of religious ritual (should we pat our heads with the right hand and rub our tummies with the left or should it be the other way) and not the central "everybody should be nice to each other" message.
So instead people decide its a good idea to kill each other because they disagree....
So is Erastil who can be of either gender or a swan or a shower of rain really sexist because gender and species is truly an option for it, or is it his/her church that is sexist because they are tradition bound?
Good points. Not sure if the canon Golarion pantheon will work along these lines officially, but very good points.